Keynote label

[ghost of miles]

Ducal and 40's small-group swing combo fans: seek out THE FABULOUS ELLINGTONIANS. You won't be disappointed.

[J.A.W.]

Ducal and 40's small-group swing combo fans: seek out THE FABULOUS ELLINGTONIANS. You won't be disappointed.

Agreed. Great CD.

I got my Early Bebop from a seller on Amazon Germany, who had just listed it for a very reasonable price. In the last few years I was lucky enough to find all the Keynote CDs I didn't already have, for prices that varied from low to reasonable. I now have all 10 titles in this series; the only thing that's still missing is the front insert of the Benny Carter CD.

Last week I picked up a still sealed copy of the Benny Carter CD from Amazon UK for 3.79 pounds

Amazon UK has a used copy at present for 1.99 pounds - too much for the front insert??

Ordered it, thanks for the heads-up!

[jeffcrom]

The LP box set is not quite complete.

From memory (for what it's worth), there was an alternate take from one of the Coleman Hawkins dates that was left off. I think it was issued earlier on a Queen Disc LP. I don't remember off hand if the missing alternate was included on the 4-CD Hawkins issue. If I have time later I'll try to figure that out.

Sorry Steve, I meant reissued on compact disc. Correct me if I'm wrong but I am pretty sure that the LP set has it all.

The Coleman Hawkins title was an alternate of "Cattin' At Keynote" (Feb 17, 1944) - was on Meritt LP 25 & is not on the Hawkins 4CD set

The omitted Hawkins track was in fact the master take which had been issued on 78. The box (and the subsequent CD set) only contained the alternate, and Dan Morgenstern in his otherwise excellent notes denies the existence of a second take as listed in discographies.

Thanks for the info. I've enjoyed the 4-CD Complete Coleman Hawkins Keynote box for years, and didn't know about this missing take. This is when having a 78 rig helps - I just went on Ebay and found the Keynote 78 of "Cattin' at Keynote" for a good Buy It Now price. The seller also had a couple of Don Byas 78s I had been looking for.

My 78 of "Cattin' at Keynote" finally arrived today - definitely a different take from the "Complete" Hawkins box. On the 78 master, Bean begins his solo with the same lick as on the CD take, but he finishes the phrase differently - and more creatively. The whole solo is more thoughtful and interesting than on the CD take, although it builds up a pretty good head of steam by the third chorus. It makes the more familiar CD take sound kind of forced.

Just my opinion, of course, but I prefer the 78 take. I guess Hawkins and Harry Lim did, too, since that's the one they issued.

[brownie]

Fresh Sound is releasing a 11-CD set 'The Keynote Jazz Collection'

http://www.freshsoundrecords.com/the_keynote_jazz_collection_1941-1947_11-cd_box_set-cd-6062.html

[Gheorghe]

Keynote label ? Is it possible there was also an album with Lennie Tristano. The earliest one with the trio. I think I have an LP (japanese re-issue) from 1946-47, And it´s very short.

[Big Beat Steve]

Fresh Sound is releasing a 11-CD set 'The Keynote Jazz Collection'

http://www.freshsoundrecords.com/the_keynote_jazz_collection_1941-1947_11-cd_box_set-cd-6062.html

Wow!!

I guess this replaces/duplicates the contents of that huge Japanese Keynote LP box that unfortunately is long OOP. Had searched for it (at a halfway affordable price) for a while but at one point gave up.

No doubt I have a lot of the contents of this box on vinyl (via the usual Mercury reissues through the decades) and some on CD (remember when you showed me the secondhand racks at Gibert in 2006, Brownie?) but still I guess I'll be happy to shell out for the "rest".

[romualdo]

Just had a look at the track details at the Fresh Sound Site

Unfortunately (or fortunately for some) there are no alternate takes (that's over 90 titles missing)

I'm wondering if the take of Coleman Hawkins "Cattin' At Keynote" on this set will the the 78 master take that was omitted from the 21LP box?

[sidewinder]

I have the Keynote LP set and this thread will prompt me to 'hoist' it off the shelf (lifting aids required) today for a well-overdue airing. The Tristano sides are on a bonus EP with this set.

Jazz Journal has an advert in it from Fresh Sound advertising the CD box. Nearly fell off the chair when I saw that.

Edited December 7, 2013 by sidewinder

[Big Beat Steve]

Just had a look at the track details at the Fresh Sound Site

Unfortunately (or fortunately for some) there are no alternate takes (that's over 90 titles missing)

Yes, I must admit I for one could live without the alternates. I have some of them on various LPs (and the sole "Essential Keynote" CD volume that I have) anyway.

[mikeweil]

Well, in the case of Lester Young and other greats, the alternates are indispensable, but I could still keep my single CDs.

Perhaps they will follow it up with a second alternates box?

At least Fresh Sound did a box, contrary to Universal ... didn't Mosaic have that on their wish list, too?

Keynote label ? Is it possible there was also an album with Lennie Tristano. The earliest one with the trio. I think I have an LP (japanese re-issue) from 1946-47, And it´s very short.

You can still get a Tristano CD with all 19 takes:

[J.A.W.]

At least Fresh Sound did a box, contrary to Universal ... didn't Mosaic have that on their wish list, too?

If I remember correctly Mosaic didn't do a Keynote box because of licensing problems - something that doesn't bother Fresh Sound

[Head Man]

At least Fresh Sound did a box, contrary to Universal ... didn't Mosaic have that on their wish list, too?

If I remember correctly Mosaic didn't do a Keynote box because of licensing problems - something that doesn't bother Fresh Sound

Absolutely.....and I wonder where Fresh Sound will have sourced their music and what the quality will be like. If it's like most of their releases it will be a mixture of lossless, mp3 and needle drops.

[Big Beat Steve]

Like I said, Mike - I have part of those alternates on various LPs anyway, including one alternate each of almost all the Prez tracks (they WERE released before). So to me it's a tradeoff between hearing a few more alternates of the household names and getting to hear (at last) those recordings that I've never heard anywhere else before because they've been constantly bypassed by earlier reissuers. But that's only me, of course ...

BTW, a question to those in the know (and/or who own the huge 21-LP Japanese Keynote box): Are all those 90 alternates FULL and complete tracks or do they also include (to a sizable extent) false starts, breakdowns, etc.?

[J.A.W.]

At least Fresh Sound did a box, contrary to Universal ... didn't Mosaic have that on their wish list, too?

If I remember correctly Mosaic didn't do a Keynote box because of licensing problems - something that doesn't bother Fresh Sound

Absolutely.....and I wonder where Fresh Sound will have sourced their music and what the quality will be like. If it's like most of their releases it will be a mixture of lossless, mp3 and needle drops.

I was wondering about that too.

[Big Beat Steve]

Well, Hans, maybe a way to find out would be to try to contact/track down (fellow countryman?) Pieter De Wagter (who is listed on the FS site as being in charge of remastering of this CD box set) and ask him directly.

Assuming that this is not a spoof pseudonym ...

Edited December 7, 2013 by Big Beat Steve

[jazztrain]

Some of this was covered in earlier posts in this thread, but I'll summarize it here.

The LP box set contains 115 previously unissued performances.

As far as I can tell, they are are full length or "complete" performances, but I note that one of the Tristano takes of "Interlude" is significantly shorter than those others. In addition, the notes indicate that the bonus Tristano single contains a performance that runs for almost four minutes "until there was no more wax" and that it ends abruptly.

There do not appear to be any breakdowns included in the LP box set. In fact, the notes indicate some takes that were not included were breakdowns.

The master take of the Hawkins "Cattin' at Keynote" was inadvertently omitted from the box.

The subsequent Benny Carter CD (The Complete Benny Carter, The Essential Keynote Collection 7) included material that was not included in the box set. The Benny Carter CD includes 3 new performances (all alternates) from the April 1946 session by the Arnold Ross Quintet (on which Benny Carter appears) as well as 7 alternates from the April 22, 1946 session by the Benny Carter Quintet. None of the material from the April 22, 1946 session had been issued on Keynote. The LP box set included one take each of four tunes from that session. The CD provides alternate takes as well.

Like I said, Mike - I have part of those alternates on various LPs anyway, including one alternate each of almost all the Prez tracks (they WERE released before). So to me it's a tradeoff between hearing a few more alternates of the household names and getting to hear (at last) those recordings that I've never heard anywhere else before because they've been constantly bypassed by earlier reissuers. But that's only me, of course ...

BTW, a question to those in the know (and/or who own the huge 21-LP Japanese Keynote box): Are all those 90 alternates FULL and complete tracks or do they also include (to a sizable extent) false starts, breakdowns, etc.?

[Big Beat Steve]

Thanks, Jazztrain. That clarifies it.

Knowing that the 21-LP box set will probably never come my way, that 11-CD set will likely be the next best thing (give or take most of the alternates). And I guess there are quite a few out there who'd argue like that (if reason prevails ).

[mikeweil]

At least Fresh Sound did a box, contrary to Universal ... didn't Mosaic have that on their wish list, too?

If I remember correctly Mosaic didn't do a Keynote box because of licensing problems - something that doesn't bother Fresh Sound

Of course not ...

[king ubu]

Well, Hans, maybe a way to find out would be to try to contact/track down (fellow countryman?) Pieter De Wagter (who is listed on the FS site as being in charge of remastering of this CD box set) and ask him directly.

Assuming that this is not a spoof pseudonym ...

Seems he's real:

http://www.talentris.com/interviewn.php?number=7

There's also an feghbook profile, so anyone playing that game could drop him a question - I'd surely be interested, since Steve sums up my own take: don't think I'll ever land that LP box, so ...

On the other hand, I've got several of those Essential Keynote Collection discs - the Hawkins is one fantastic set! - and really don't feel like overspending on what might end up a crappy-sounding (and even worse possibly partly MP3 sourced) box set done by the crooks. Too bad PolyGram/Verve/Universal never really bothered to do the right thing and release this music jazz reissues were still feasible.

[gmonahan]

Are the Pierce and Willie Smith sessions the only ones that weren't issued in the "Essential" cd series back in the early 90s? That series had 14 cds, and this box only has 11. Obviously, dropping the alternates makes tons of room, but I'm curious how much new there will be in this box for those of us that have the earlier ones.

gregmo

[romualdo]

There were 334 titles in the LP box & 230 titles released in the CD series

That leaves 104 & of these there are only 6 or 7 alts (take into account my mathematical error)

So there are 97 or 98 non digitalised titles (apart from some released on other labels - Washington, Willie Smith) & these are all in the FS box (just checked) - definitely worth getting if you don't have the LP set

[gmonahan]

There were 334 titles in the LP box & 230 titles released in the CD series

That leaves 104 & of these there are only 6 or 7 alts (take into account my mathematical error)

So there are 97 or 98 non digitalised titles (apart from some released on other labels - Washington, Willie Smith) & these are all in the FS box (just checked) - definitely worth getting if you don't have the LP set

Thanks Romualdo!

gregmo

[king ubu]

Now I'd be really interested to know if they found a better source other than the low-bitrate version that was around in the interwebs some years ago for those titles!

[Big Beat Steve]

Well, in a pinch they could always have gone to the Japanese 21-LP box, couldn't they? And shouldn't a (careful) needledrop be better than whatever "low" a low-bitrate source is?

That Pieter de Wagter interview you linked was an interesting read. Technically speaking, it seems like he knows what he's doing. The only uneasy feeling I have about this is whether he has the feel for 40s jazz (as opposed to much more recent rock mastering that is the focus of this interview) and hits the right balance.

[king ubu]

Sure they could, if they bother to spend money ... not sure they do.

Also, no matter if the engineer is capable ... he goes from the sources they hand him, doesn't he?

But I certainly am crossing my fingers for this to be a good box!