Artists you know well but have never really liked

[BillF]

Alto saxophonist Willie Smith. Smith was one of the finest lead alto players of the swing era but when called on to solo it was quite a different story for this listener. I found his solo work on records he made during the 78 RPM years, when most recorded music was limited to three minutes a side, quite acceptable, but once the LP was introduced producers like Norman Granz let Smith loose on jam sessions in the company of players like Benny Carter. More often than not Smith came off sounding like an air raid siren.

I know what you mean.

[John L]

Alto saxophonist Willie Smith. Smith was one of the finest lead alto players of the swing era but when called on to solo it was quite a different story for this listener. I found his solo work on records he made during the 78 RPM years, when most recorded music was limited to three minutes a side, quite acceptable, but once the LP was introduced producers like Norman Granz let Smith loose on jam sessions in the company of players like Benny Carter. More often than not Smith came off sounding like an air raid siren.

Understood, but some of those short solos with Lunceford are more than enough to put him in my pantheon.

[BillF]

Alto saxophonist Willie Smith. Smith was one of the finest lead alto players of the swing era but when called on to solo it was quite a different story for this listener. I found his solo work on records he made during the 78 RPM years, when most recorded music was limited to three minutes a side, quite acceptable, but once the LP was introduced producers like Norman Granz let Smith loose on jam sessions in the company of players like Benny Carter. More often than not Smith came off sounding like an air raid siren.

Understood, but some of those short solos with Lunceford are more than enough to put him in my pantheon.

That's a valid point.

[gmonahan]

Maybe the more interesting question is, if we don't like these guys (and so far, I think they're all guys) that much, what on earth are we doing with so many recordings by them? I have all of Trane's Prestige, Atlantic, Blue Note, and Bethlehem recordings and a good number of the early Impulses! Lots of Brubeck too--though there, I really do get them for Desmond's alto, which I love. (but I have the trio stuff! :blush2: )

gregmo

[clifford_thornton]

Joe Henderson - that Milestone box could turn someone off music permanently. Did he have more than 2 solos that he recycled endlessly?

With the exception of his work with Andrew Hill, I've tried to get into Joe Henderson and it's been really, really hit-or-miss. That said, I have a number of his recordings as a leader that I rarely pull off the shelf.

[mikelz777]

Joe Henderson - that Milestone box could turn someone off music permanently.

So I'm not the only one. I think there are 2 or 3+ discs in that set which are pretty much unlistenable to me.

[Guest Bill Barton]

Clark Terry, again with a few exceptions -- e.g. his 1955 album "Swahili" and the Riverside date with Monk and Philly Joe. Too often, later on, he just trots out his shtick.

I wonder if there are players who are better as a sideman than leader? As if the player thinks "It's not my name on it -- it won't 'cost' me anything to take chances..."

When it comes to his own name, he plays it safe: "Don't want to scare anyone away..."

As an aside on this topic, I've often thought the reverse, that in many cases a sideman/woman will reserve his/her best ideas for his/her own record. I find the cases where the sideperson stands out to be a minority, and often notable for that reason.

as for Jackie McLean - if you have problems, try listening to the live stuff from Europe (Scandanavia? Germany? can't remember) with things llike Das Dat - the absolute pinnacle of post-bop intensity and inventiveness. Amazing stuff.

Yes I thought someone would say that. You rightly infer that I never heard that stuff - it's about all of his that I don't actually own. I guess I'll buy in those Steeplechase LPs - I seem to remember Jim recommmending Montmartre. About ten years ago. Damn.

This is a bit of a digression from the thread concept, but there have always been folks who tend to knock me out more as "sidepeople" than when they're in the "lead" role. Bill Frisell is the name that immediately springs to mind here. I *love* his playing, have thoroughly enjoyed most of the live performances I've witnessed, but many of his own recordings tend to leave me unmoved. In fact, my favorite is still Rambler on ECM, which was a long, long time ago...

[ep1str0phy]

Clark Terry, again with a few exceptions -- e.g. his 1955 album "Swahili" and the Riverside date with Monk and Philly Joe. Too often, later on, he just trots out his shtick.

I wonder if there are players who are better as a sideman than leader? As if the player thinks "It's not my name on it -- it won't 'cost' me anything to take chances..."

When it comes to his own name, he plays it safe: "Don't want to scare anyone away..."

As an aside on this topic, I've often thought the reverse, that in many cases a sideman/woman will reserve his/her best ideas for his/her own record. I find the cases where the sideperson stands out to be a minority, and often notable for that reason.

as for Jackie McLean - if you have problems, try listening to the live stuff from Europe (Scandanavia? Germany? can't remember) with things llike Das Dat - the absolute pinnacle of post-bop intensity and inventiveness. Amazing stuff.

Yes I thought someone would say that. You rightly infer that I never heard that stuff - it's about all of his that I don't actually own. I guess I'll buy in those Steeplechase LPs - I seem to remember Jim recommmending Montmartre. About ten years ago. Damn.

This is a bit of a digression from the thread concept, but there have always been folks who tend to knock me out more as "sidepeople" than when they're in the "lead" role. Bill Frisell is the name that immediately springs to mind here. I *love* his playing, have thoroughly enjoyed most of the live performances I've witnessed, but many of his own recordings tend to leave me unmoved. In fact, my favorite is still Rambler on ECM, which was a long, long time ago...

I'm somewhat of this mindset. Fred Frith (a master of sound production on the guitar, of all types) hipped me to Frisell a while ago; I'd taken him to be kind of drossy up until then, only now and again popping up (as on the much-maligned Fragments, which I actually quite like) as a force to be reckoned with. He is, of course, mired in this Americana thing these days, which I've come to appreciate as very accomplished on a technical level (within its own parameters)... but then a friend gave me a copy of Paul Motian's The Story of Maryam, and it completely blew my mind. That type of playing, in a free jazz-type idiom, is stone free in the best possible way--a realization of the guitar as a dynamic, timbrally flexible frontline instrument.

I'm not the hugest fan of his aesthetic, necessarily, but in terms of sheer technical prowess, Frisell is the MF of all MFs. That level of sound production/pedal mastery is totally limitless. His volume pedal technique is flawless, and his extremely well-elided, seamlessly integrated pedal work operates at a very high level. More than that, it's easy to forget just how difficult it is to control the nuances of a solid body electric guitar with jacked up treble (especially on the Telecasters that Frisell seems to favor), but he does it very, very well. Something that has impressed me about Frisell (and Frith, too, for that matter) is just how little erratic noise there is in their playing--all the little clicks, blips, and squeaks that jazz guitarists often hazard are almost totally absent in their playing--and a lot of that is good volume pedal technique.

...so I regard Frisell as a virtuoso in his own right--not often (or even half of the time) the kind of listening that I'll go to (as a leader), but something I'll always appreciate and love to hear when the fire is lit.

[Victor Christensen]

Cecil Taylor and Albert Ayler, and most Dave Brubeck. I am mostly into records from early forties to early sixties.

Vic

[mjzee]

Hey, Ep1str0phy, based on what you wrote, I think you'd really enjoy Frisell's work on these two very different records:

In both cases, he's supporting the leader totally appropriately, and yet retains his own sound and concept. Quite an achievement!