Archie Shepp

[JSngry]

sorta?

 

 

 

[Late]

On 7/17/2020 at 8:15 AM, Jim Duckworth said:

 I now find these records engaging and very timely.

I was thinking recently about how timely Shepp's work feels — particularly mid-2020. I've been listening to:

I need to spin The Way Ahead next.

[Jim Duckworth]

On 7/17/2020 at 6:19 PM, JSngry said:

Add this and you got four!

On 7/17/2020 at 6:19 PM, JSngry said:

 

 

 

A long time favorite-I spent close listening time with this one last week.

[JSngry]

34 minutes ago, Jim Duckworth said:

A long time favorite-I spent close listening time with this one last week.

Yeah, one of mine too, bought it new - as a promo copy, Stan's in Shreveport. Same place where I rescued a few OG Shepp impulse!s with the laminated covers.

Still don't understand why it sounds like it was recorded off a shortwave radio broadcast, or something of that ilk. But that adds to the....ambiance...Shepp was sort of going "into exile" from his "fire music" and was preparing to evolve into a changes player (and wasn't that a bit of a journey....). So this one comes off as a transmission from some other place, better grab it now, it's fading fast...

 

[jlhoots]

Changes player indeed - some of those Venus CDs are pretty good!!

[JSngry]

18 minutes ago, jlhoots said:

Changes player indeed - some of those Venus CDs are pretty good!!

He was always a good ballad player. He became a great one, imo. Great dramatist, great "singer", give him a good ballad on a good day and he will get right to the core of both it and you with it. Which one is it, Blue Ballads? JEEEEEEEEZZZZZZUS, there that is.

But as a straight-up "changes" player...it was kind of rough-going for a good long while, imo. He was definitely doing the work, but lord, you can hear the patterns, and the forced thinking to play something other than straight from the gut. And a lot of those 70s records are very much listening to a guy literally getting his changes together. And he was never going to be a coldstonecoldhardbebopper, that's not who he was. But I respect the hell out of him for confronting his instrument and his music in that way. When he did reach the level of facility that allowed him to play that vocabulary with more and more instinct, hey, it was great, that tone never went away.

Just saying, you got people from that era who relied on the "fire" more than the "mechanics". Well, that's ok as long as the fire has fuel. But when the fuel runs out, or gets low, or when the fire itself is no longer relevant, then what? Mechanics, that's what. More mechanics gives you more options, and if yours is a non-narcissistic or otherwise non-insulated/isolated creativity, you want to have options for going forth. Options = fuel for that fire.

Shepp knew that there was more that he could learn, decided that he should learn it, and went ahead and did the work to learn it. The most major of props to him for that.

[Gheorghe]

When I saw Shepp live the first time it was the same personnel like on this record, minus the to me unknown trumpet player. But it was the great Siegfried Kessler , german born but french based, on piano, Bob Cunningham, and Clifford Jarvis......such a great concert.....

[felser]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

He was always a good ballad player. He became a great one, imo. Great dramatist, great "singer", give him a good ballad on a good day and he will get right to the core of both it and you with it. Which one is it, Blue Ballads? JEEEEEEEEZZZZZZUS, there that is.

But as a straight-up "changes" player...it was kind of rough-going for a good long while, imo. He was definitely doing the work, but lord, you can hear the patterns, and the forced thinking to play something other than straight from the gut. And a lot of those 70s records are very much listening to a guy literally getting his changes together. And he was never going to be a coldstonecoldhardbebopper, that's not who he was. But I respect the hell out of him for confronting his instrument and his music in that way. When he did reach the level of facility that allowed him to play that vocabulary with more and more instinct, hey, it was great, that tone never went away.

Just saying, you got people from that era who relied on the "fire" more than the "mechanics". Well, that's ok as long as the fire has fuel. But when the fuel runs out, or gets low, or when the fire itself is no longer relevant, then what? Mechanics, that's what. More mechanics gives you more options, and if yours is a non-narcissistic or otherwise non-insulated/isolated creativity, you want to have options for going forth. Options = fuel for that fire.

Shepp knew that there was more that he could learn, decided that he should learn it, and went ahead and did the work to learn it. The most major of props to him for that.

I've always liked the two Montreux albums that came out on Arista-Freedom.  He seemed to be sort of beginning to straddle both sides of the fence on those and during that period (1975-1976).  Later in the decade, he seemed to really head into the changes period you describe, and the Shepp of, say, 1978 was definety something different than the Shepp of the first half of the 70's.   Some of that was not plainly in view at that time because  a lot of his titles recorded during the late 70's were on the Japanese Denon label, which was not readily available/affordable in the USA if I recall correctly.   And he had a LOT of albums released 1975-1980 (the Freedom's, the Horo's, the Denon's, and a lot of one-offs on other smallish labels), so it was hard to keep up in near-real time, even with access to Third Street Jazz.

[JSngry]

Those Arista Montreux albums distressed me then and just irritate me mow.  Solos rambled, same licks got repeated...in retrospect, he was practicing, simple as that. That's not my idea of a good record, but otoh, by that point he was an established act and had to make the gig.

For some reason, the Denons were available here. Those things...they looked like they were going to be SO good, but...Sheppard was still getting his changes together. Those records....yeah, they made them, so there they are.

Like I said, a bit of a journey. Playing THAT way is a lot of work and takes years to get together. So...years it took!

[AllenLowe]

Shepp surprised on the Bird duo record he made in 1980:

 

and his solo on this is superb:

 

[Д.Д.]

On 7/19/2020 at 3:51 PM, JSngry said:

.Shepp was sort of going "into exile" from his "fire music" and was preparing to evolve into a changes player (and wasn't that a bit of a journey....).

Would you say Pharoah Sanders went through the same transition? Equally successfully? I actually don't like Shepp that much - neither the early stuff, nor the recent one. But I do love the later-period Sanders.  

[JSngry]

Pharoah actually started out playing changes pretty adeptly. That's what that ESP record is. And for all the controversy his work with Trane caused, it's all actually very fundamentally sound from a saxophone/mechanical standpoint. All those overtones and false fingerings, that was not random, nor was there even a hint of fingerwagglereedbiteoverblow. That was all technique, all of it.

Shepp, pre-"fire music", yo could hear that he was learning his "changes", still formative, but he was doing some work. Then, I guess he got caught up in the moment and the exposure, Dude started getting gigs, with a real record contract and shit, so I guess that's where he focused his energies. Can't fault him for that! But at some point, I think he realized he needed/wanted to pick up where he sorta left off. Again, fullest props to him for doing that.

[felser]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Pharoah actually started out playing changes pretty adeptly. That's what that ESP record is. And for all the controversy his work with Trane caused, it's all actually very fundamentally sound from a saxophone/mechanical standpoint. All those overtones and false fingerings, that was not random, nor was there even a hint of fingerwagglereedbiteoverblow. That was all technique, all of it.

Shepp, pre-"fire music", yo could hear that he was learning his "changes", still formative, but he was doing some work. Then, I guess he got caught up in the moment and the exposure, Dude started getting gigs, with a real record contract and shit, so I guess that's where he focused his energies. Can't fault him for that! But at some point, I think he realized he needed/wanted to pick up where he sorta left off. Again, fullest props to him for doing that.

Jim, do you like Shepp's work "Fire Music" through, say 1970?   I do.   

[JSngry]

oh hell yeah! I imprinted on that stuff. still find it my "mother tongue" actually. Mama Too Tight was one fo the first 50 or so jass records I bought. Cutout bins are destiny!~

My route into jazz came straight from Hendrix/Zappa/R&B into Ayler/Trane/jazz-rock...which is a bit of an unshouldered road, but a road nevertheless. I think the common factor there was the emotional connection made with "unusual" sounds, then as I got older, "weird" was not enough, I needed it to connect to something I could bond with for the long haul, which is where cultural choices get made.

But shepp was in there from the beginning, and has never left. I've recently been looking into his work with Bill Dixon/NY Contemporary 5, that stuff. So I'm definitely down ith him. It's just that, he's like anybody else, "journey" takes you to some unexpected places...not always delightful places. but what was the line from that Franklyn Ajaye record...if you live you gonna HIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!

[felser]

2 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Cutout bins are destiny!~

My route into jazz came straight from Hendrix/Zappa/R&B into Ayler/Trane/jazz-rock...which is a bit of an unshouldered road, but a road nevertheless.

I took the same road, not as unusual for our age group.  Went right from "Eight Miles High" to "A Love Supreme" and "The Inner Mounting Flame" (courtesy of the LP browser in my college library).  And yes, most of my earliest jazz purchases were from places like Woolworth's and Marshall's cut out bins, where my scare dollars stretched much further!

[JSngry]

I never, ever got into "rock", though. Zeppelin was a big, "uh...maybe, maybe not" and then between Zappa/Mothers (the OG Mothers) and Ayer/Trane it was like, no, DEFINITELY not. so I was totally severed from that "rock mentality by, like 15 (and not THAT much into it for a few years before that). Worked/Works for me just fine. The road(s) I got on have been splendid without all those other roadside tourist traps.

[felser]

33 minutes ago, JSngry said:

roadside tourist traps.

[JSngry]

Exactly.

[bertrand]

On 7/19/2020 at 1:00 PM, felser said:

I've always liked the two Montreux albums that came out on Arista-Freedom.  He seemed to be sort of beginning to straddle both sides of the fence on those and during that period (1975-1976).  Later in the decade, he seemed to really head into the changes period you describe, and the Shepp of, say, 1978 was definety something different than the Shepp of the first half of the 70's.   Some of that was not plainly in view at that time because  a lot of his titles recorded during the late 70's were on the Japanese Denon label, which was not readily available/affordable in the USA if I recall correctly.   And he had a LOT of albums released 1975-1980 (the Freedom's, the Horo's, the Denon's, and a lot of one-offs on other smallish labels), so it was hard to keep up in near-real time, even with access to Third Street Jazz.

Montreux Two has a Moncur piece that was never recorded elsewhere that I have always been curious about.

[JSngry]

 

Also here: https://www.discogs.com/Archie-Shepp-%C3%80-Massy-U-Jaama-Unit%C3%A9/release/1818027

which looks pretty interesting, actually...

The same label that gave us the epochal sheep/Roach Force...

[felser]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

 

Also here: https://www.discogs.com/Archie-Shepp-%C3%80-Massy-U-Jaama-Unit%C3%A9/release/1818027

which looks pretty interesting, actually...

The same label that gave us the epochal sheep/Roach Force...

It is very good, I got it at Third Street Jazz back in the day.  That's my go-to version of "African Drum Suite".  Desperately in need of CD issue, but I've given up hope.

[JSngry]

Check out THAT label, good luck getting to the real owners, if there are in fact any real owners...

https://www.discogs.com/label/134001-Uniteledis

At least Force got bootlegged to CD, so hope springs etc.

[danasgoodstuff]

Saw Shepp recently (pre-pandemic), he played "Wise One" among other things, it was deep.  Yeah he's lost a step but he still has a lovely distinctive sound.  The early stuff and the 1st two duets with Parlan are my goto records.

Edited July 22, 2020 by danasgoodstuff

[Dave James]

1 hour ago, danasgoodstuff said:

Saw Shepp recently (pre-pandemic), he played "Wise One" among other things, it was deep.  Yeah he's lost a step but he still has a lovely distinctive sound.  The early stuff and the 1st two duets with Parlan are my goto records.

I was at the same show at the Performing Arts Center in downtown PDX.  Great venue.  Shepp is certainly no spring chicken, but he seemed to be in good spirits and played a fairly lengthly set.  The trio behind him was uber-tight.  He did some interesting songs that I wasn't expecting to hear.  I'll tell you one thing...that was a beautiful saxophone he was playing that night.

[Late]

On 7/7/2004 at 8:14 AM, JSngry said:

If and when it gets reissued on CD, people will either love it totally or hate it without reservation.

Reissued again. Along with:

• Fire Music
• On This Night
• Live In San Francisco
• Mama Too Tight
• The Way Ahead
• Kwanza
• Things Have Got To Change
• Three For Shepp (Marion Brown)