Sam Rivers and Jimi Hendrix

[Hardbopjazz]

While at the Sam Rivers show earlier this month, Sam mention that in late 68 or early 69 he invited Hendrix to jam with him. Sam said they played from dusk to dawn in a loft across from where Sweet Basil was. Sam also said he recorded the jam session. During the question section of the concert Sam said they played nothing but the blues for 12 hours. I would love to one day hear this.

Does anyone know if this is circulating with collectors that are into these private recordings?

Edited May 26, 2010 by Hardbopjazz

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaam. that makes me think......

dude sam rivers/jimi hendrix/larry young/tony williams.........that would of been the greatest supergroup!

[jazzbo]

No, this does not circulate among Hendrix collectors.

[BFrank]

Anyone here have connections to Sam? If so, it would be worth contacting him about releasing this in some form or another.

[Hardbopjazz]

Maybe another Mosaic set one day.

[clifford_thornton]

My mind is underwhelmed rather than blown by this concept.

[jazzbo]

I'm sure there's some interesting stuff there.

Not sure what Janie Hendrix would think of the commercial potential of this material. . . .

[Hardbopjazz]

Rivers said Jimmy was a blues player who couldn't read music. All Rivers did was get to the basics and play straight ahead blues when they jammed. True, maybe there's not something interesting here and thus Rivers never bothered to get this released. We may never know.

[jazzbo]

Rivers will/would have to deal with the Hendrix estate to get this officially released. Looking at their track record of releasing this sort of thing, they may take a chance on a Dagger Records (their mail order only line) but it's not likely they would think it would generate enough sales to bother.

[AllenLowe]

to me this is a little like Bernard Purdie claiming to have played some of the Beatles' drum parts - I just don't believe it.

let's hear the tapes; or just some fraction of the tapes.

[relyles]

Additional info from Rick Lopez' Rivers sessionography:

69.08.00 Jimi Hendrix with Sam Rivers [POSSIBLE Audience Recordings]

August, 1969 / Woodstock, NY

Jeff Evangelista, Jimi Hendrix researcher/archivist, correspondence 02.04.18 and 02.05.26:

"Sam has mentioned in interviews that Alan Douglas set up a jam with him and Jimi at the Woodstock retreat house (Jimi's rented house), and they had a play. Your session dates helped tremendously because I think I have narrowed the time-frame down to August 1969. From your notes, it looks like Sam was in Europe (Poland etc.) for most of the autumn of 1969. And he played in France with Cecil Taylor in late July. Jimi [was in] Morocco... July 30 through Aug, ...and was at the retreat for most of August. Of course Woodstock was held Aug 18.

...Anything that might rule out this time-frame? Do you know anything more about this supposed jam between the two musicians? ...We do have quite a bit of tapes from this Woodstock rehearsal period, but nothing I can identify with Sam. Jimi was definitely experimenting with playing with Free Jazz'ers at this time though, as we can hear from the house tapes and tapes recorded at the Tinker Street Cinema with Earl Cross on trumpet.

The Sam Rivers episode though is one mystery that needs to be solved. it would be wonderful to get a sense... about what they might have played together, personnel, ...etc. If tapes existed..."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steve Lafayette, correspondence 09.03.21

"I've been researching this ever since I spoke with one of the session players, Stafford James (celloist). He said that others players were Jumma Santos, Billy Cox, Mike Ephron and maybe Jerry Velez. It was Fall time at Jimi's Woodstock house on a farm. He doesn't recall anyone taping it, but said it was like one long continous jam for four hours. Sorry I don't have anything more concrete, wish I did... Stafford also mentioned it was probably in August of '70, as he recalls Jimi died a month after their jam. Somebody needs to get on the horn to these other sessions players about this gig quick before all memory fails."

This latest throws the year off... I do have a reference for "Juma (congas)," most likely Jumma Santos, in a session with Rivers and the Harlem Ensemble in '71 (Down Beat October 28 1971 p.33, review by Bill Cole). Then again, we could be casting line in a lifeless pond... RL

If anyone has any info to add to this, please contact Rick Lopez and/or Jeff Evangelista.

{Primary Source: Jeff Evangelista 02.04.18 and 02.05.26; Steve Lafayette 09.03.21} Not in my collection.

Edited May 27, 2010 by relyles

[Pete C]

to me this is a little like Bernard Purdie claiming to have played some of the Beatles' drum parts - I just don't believe it.

let's hear the tapes; or just some fraction of the tapes.

Here's the explanation about Purdie from Wikipedia:

In 1961 he moved to New York and played session with Mickey and Sylvia and regularly visited the Turf Club on 50th and Broadway in New York, where musicians, agents and promoters met and touted for business. It was during this period that he played for the saxophonist Buddy Lucas, who nicknamed him Mississippi Bigfoot. Eventually Barney Richmond contracted him to play session work.[5]. In the same year original Beatles drummer Pete Best and guitarist Tony Sheridan recorded tracks in Hamburg with the Beatles. Later Bernard Purdie added drum overdubs to tracks from these sessions,[8] including "Ain't She Sweet", "Take Out Some Insurance on Me Baby" and "Sweet Georgia Brown".[9] The main reason for this was to give them a punchier sound for the US market. These tracks were eventually released on January 31, 1964 by Polydor.[10] Ringo Starr's physical approach to drumming was probably influenced by Purdie's Motown style.[11]

[Hardbopjazz]

Hey, this a Hendrix/Rivers discussion.

[AmirBagachelles]

Ok, so is someone here saying that Sam Rivers, admired musician, is simply mistaken or over-reaching? Why post disbelief in a public forum? What is that based upon?

[Pete C]

Often jams are just jams. Curiosities, but of questionable lasting merit. Like those jams with McLaughlin, Hendrix, Larry Young, etc.

[clifford_thornton]

I believe that it happened; it is just not something that particularly interests me. Sam Rivers, Larry Young, and Tony Williams "going for it" around the same time period, now that I would like to hear.

[JSngry]

to me this is a little like Bernard Purdie claiming to have played some of the Beatles' drum parts - I just don't believe it.

let's hear the tapes; or just some fraction of the tapes.

Here's the explanation about Purdie from Wikipedia:

In 1961 he moved to New York and played session with Mickey and Sylvia and regularly visited the Turf Club on 50th and Broadway in New York, where musicians, agents and promoters met and touted for business. It was during this period that he played for the saxophonist Buddy Lucas, who nicknamed him Mississippi Bigfoot. Eventually Barney Richmond contracted him to play session work.[5]. In the same year original Beatles drummer Pete Best and guitarist Tony Sheridan recorded tracks in Hamburg with the Beatles. Later Bernard Purdie added drum overdubs to tracks from these sessions,[8] including "Ain't She Sweet", "Take Out Some Insurance on Me Baby" and "Sweet Georgia Brown".[9] The main reason for this was to give them a punchier sound for the US market. These tracks were eventually released on January 31, 1964 by Polydor.[10] Ringo Starr's physical approach to drumming was probably influenced by Purdie's Motown style.[11]

Thos w/teh Purple Chick stuff will have heard these cuts in both forms.

[JETman]

to me this is a little like Bernard Purdie claiming to have played some of the Beatles' drum parts - I just don't believe it.

let's hear the tapes; or just some fraction of the tapes.

Here's the explanation about Purdie from Wikipedia:

In 1961 he moved to New York and played session with Mickey and Sylvia and regularly visited the Turf Club on 50th and Broadway in New York, where musicians, agents and promoters met and touted for business. It was during this period that he played for the saxophonist Buddy Lucas, who nicknamed him Mississippi Bigfoot. Eventually Barney Richmond contracted him to play session work.[5]. In the same year original Beatles drummer Pete Best and guitarist Tony Sheridan recorded tracks in Hamburg with the Beatles. Later Bernard Purdie added drum overdubs to tracks from these sessions,[8] including "Ain't She Sweet", "Take Out Some Insurance on Me Baby" and "Sweet Georgia Brown".[9] The main reason for this was to give them a punchier sound for the US market. These tracks were eventually released on January 31, 1964 by Polydor.[10] Ringo Starr's physical approach to drumming was probably influenced by Purdie's Motown style.[11]

You should know better than to use Wikipedia to back up your claims or to disprove someone else's!

[Pete C]

You should know better than to use Wikipedia to back up your claims or to disprove someone else's!

footnotes referenced in highlighted copy:

8 ^ Everett, Walter. The Beatles as musicians. Oxford University Press US/Google Notes to page 202-212.

9 ^ Gottfridsson, Hans Olof, Sheridon, Tony and Beatles. The Beatles from Cavern to Star-Club: The Illustrated Chronicle, Discography & Price Guide 1957-1962. Premium Publishing (1997). pp. 222, 310, 313, 333, 341.

10 ^ Miles, Barry and Badman, Keith. The Beatles Diary: The Beatles years. Omnibus Press (2001). pp. 129.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Pete C

[AllenLowe]

Purdie has actually made much more extensive claims than just those overdubs.

[Pete C]

Purdie has actually made much more extensive claims than just those overdubs.

Yes, those are the ones without substantial backup.

http://www.beatlesagain.com/breflib/purdie.html

[JETman]

You should know better than to use Wikipedia to back up your claims or to disprove someone else's!

footnotes referenced in highlighted copy:

8 ^ Everett, Walter. The Beatles as musicians. Oxford University Press US/Google Notes to page 202-212.

9 ^ Gottfridsson, Hans Olof, Sheridon, Tony and Beatles. The Beatles from Cavern to Star-Club: The Illustrated Chronicle, Discography & Price Guide 1957-1962. Premium Publishing (1997). pp. 222, 310, 313, 333, 341.

10 ^ Miles, Barry and Badman, Keith. The Beatles Diary: The Beatles years. Omnibus Press (2001). pp. 129.

Not to hijack, but those are still 3rd party claims. These are not autobiographies that are being referenced. That's like saying that anything I claim to be true IS true, as long as I place it in a book I've written.

[JSngry]

You should know better than to use Wikipedia to back up your claims or to disprove someone else's!

footnotes referenced in highlighted copy:

8 ^ Everett, Walter. The Beatles as musicians. Oxford University Press US/Google Notes to page 202-212.

9 ^ Gottfridsson, Hans Olof, Sheridon, Tony and Beatles. The Beatles from Cavern to Star-Club: The Illustrated Chronicle, Discography & Price Guide 1957-1962. Premium Publishing (1997). pp. 222, 310, 313, 333, 341.

10 ^ Miles, Barry and Badman, Keith. The Beatles Diary: The Beatles years. Omnibus Press (2001). pp. 129.

Not to hijack, but those are still 3rd party claims. These are not autobiographies that are being referenced. That's like saying that anything I claim to be true IS true, as long as I place it in a book I've written.

So are you saying that anything anybody says about themselves is automatically true?

[JETman]

With higher likelihood than with what one says about others.

Edited May 27, 2010 by JETman

[Pete C]

With higher likelihood than with what one says about others.

Right, like in the Miles and Mingus "autobiographies."