Daniel A Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 When browsing some old archived threads I have (prompted by the possible BNBB revival at AAJ) I came across this thread about Pacific Jazz. I remember someone mentioning that thread as something that would be missed from the old board, so I thought I could as well re-post the contents here, as they are quite interesting. And this is not meant to undermine Mike's efforts on the AAJ board; I just thought it could be good to have this thread back, and perhaps see some fresh views on the subject: Rachel Member Member # 1631 posted April 06, 2001 09:43 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm new here, but after some searches, I get the sense that whenever Pacific Jazz or West Coast Jazz is mentioned, there's an accompanying discussion of poor sales and lack of interest. Why? Is it a stigma about jazz from California? I just listened to Teddy Edwards on Pacific Jazz this morning. And then Bob Brookmeyer. Is the interest in Pacific Jazz that much less than Blue Note? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 40 | From: Los Angeles, CA | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged reinier Member Member # 339 posted April 06, 2001 09:51 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rachel, I don't get it as well. They even reissued the Pacific Jazz album by Booker Ervin in the Blue Note Connoisseur series (so people won't be scared away by the PJ logo I think). Pacific Jazz equals quality jazz imo, just as BN does. East Coast/West Coast......it's just about good jazz which is on both coasts (but I'm a real WC addict as well as EC). But the sales are telling it all I'm afraid. Let's hope there will be more PJ titles in disquise (like the Ervin one) so at least we will get them. All the best and welcome a board! Reinier -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 794 | From: The Hague, The Netherlands | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged arb Member Member # 225 posted April 06, 2001 10:03 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some of the discussion on the West Coast Classic series voiced a theory that, since these artists were unfamilair to most, the high price tags discouraged casual listeners from picking them up. (Not me, but then again, I'm an idiot when it comes to this stuff.) Which is a shame, becuase I found them all very enjoyable, even the flute stuff. Even the stuff with the harpsichord, for that matter. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 562 | From: NY NY USA | Registered: Jun 99 | IP: Logged Hawkins Member Member # 93 posted April 06, 2001 11:40 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I just recently read Giola's "West Coast Jazz" and went on a West Coast kick - of course, that included trying to track down a lot of Pacific Jazz recordings. So much of the Pacific Jazz that was reissued just a couple of years ago are all but obsolete already. It really is quite a strange paradox - if those releases really were so unpopular, you'd think they would still be around, begging to be bought. But I guess Blue Note had kept that batch to a very small number of original pressings and gave up on them fairly quickly. All I can say is, thank God for Mosaic/True Blue for keeping a lot of this stuff in print (or hoarding all of the copies they can, as in the case of True Blue). But I would have to agree that the typical West vs. East argument falls flat. When I first started listening to jazz, I fell for it, and there really is some kind of strange reverse racism at work. Although I'm white, I thought for a long time that only blacks could play "real" jazz - it's "their" music, and only they can invest it with the spirit of its roots. Of course, the fact that some great black musicians recorded for Pacific Jazz escaped me, and the realization of that is probably what led me originally to give the label a chance - and, eventually, to get over my aversion to cool, "white" jazz. It's sad, but I don't doubt that it happens to a lot of jazz fans. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 296 | From: New York, NY, USA | Registered: Jul 99 | IP: Logged Lon Armstrong Member Member # 137 posted April 06, 2001 11:47 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't doubt it either Ryan; I think I fell prey to that thinking as well at an early point. Pacific Jazz and its tributary labels was a really nice group of jazz recordings. I like that Richard Bock was a producer with a vision, as was Alfred Lion, and also was a recording engineer for his labels, which was an interesting combination! There was such a wide variety of material he produced that it certainly can't be pigeonholed, and certainly goes beyond "West Coast Cool." I was disappointed to read that the Connoisseur series was such a poor seller, as I found it very exciting and hope for more in time. Seems puzzling that a few more Jazz Crusaders releases (preferrably in twofers!) aren't available, as this music falls within the tastes of most Blue Note fans and are very fine. I would think if given a breath of life and a bit of promotion they could be successful reissues, but then I am just a fan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10027 | From: Austin, TX USA | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged mjzee Member Member # 1216 posted April 06, 2001 11:52 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As an aside, I heartily recommend the "West Coast Jazz" box from Fantasy. It was a real ear-opener. Excellent writing and playing, and a tremendous range of styles. Good transfer quality, too, and a very good book. Selections come from many different labels, not just from the Fantasy stable. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 737 | From: Connecticut | Registered: Nov 2000 | IP: Logged Rachel Member Member # 1631 posted April 06, 2001 01:04 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wow, great points guys. I guess that most fans of jazz start with so-called East Coast jazz, and are inclined to form the opinions you're mentioning. I started with West Coast jazz, and when I went exploring for new music, I had to get used to East Coast jazz! The whole geography thing is nuts, but I guess people need labels. What were the "tributaries" of the Pacific Jazz label? What are some deserving-for-reissue titles? I'd like more Bud Shank. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 40 | From: Los Angeles, CA | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted April 06, 2001 01:58 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Valid points all, but let's not be blinded by the fact that there came to be a "West Coast" stigma for a reason. It became sort of the "smooth jazz" of it's day and a LOT of cute, overly-arranged, foo-foo stuff was released, often by "name" players. This history can be overlooked in the days of the selective re-issue, which thankfully enables us to objectively evaluate individual recordings/artists on a per-case basis. As for the racial angle that has been brought up, there is validity there as well, but only up to a point. The hostility that was felt at the time, and continues to linger, was due in large part, not to reverse racism per-se, but instead to the economic impact that Black artists (many of whom are today Blue Note Gods) felt by having the vast amount of media attention and public spending going towards the predominatly White west coast artists, few of whom were CREATING at a level of the east coast artists. JUST for an example, in 1958, Bud Shank probably sold a TON more records than Jackie McLean, and was a semi-household name, as opposed to McLean, who was little know outside the East Coast, and then mostly by musicians only. Does that invalidate Shank as a player? Of course not. But at the time, that dynamic existed throughout the marketplace, and was a great cause of resentment, because anytime you deal with the "marketplace" racial factors inevitably become involved, and remember, musicians' livlihoods depend on the marketplace. What does this have to do with the intrinsic value of the music? Little, if anything. Today we can all hear the validity of the best of the west coast artists. But art does not exist in a vaccumn (but apparently spelling does ). If we are not aware of the realities of what the then-contemporary scene was, we can easily misinterpret our current one, and before you know it, it's deja-vu all over again! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10259 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged Swinging Swede Member Member # 197 posted April 06, 2001 02:58 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I’m with Reinier on this one. I like everything I have heard so far from the Pacific Jazz catalogue, and would like to hear more. It’s depressing to see how much of the PJ catalogue remains unreleased on CD. I don’t view West Coast jazz as inferior in any way. What I hear in West Coast jazz from the 50’s is that it has some similarities to Swing Era conceptions that East Coast jazz didn’t have. There are often arranged sections between solos, and there is a certain influence from the Count Basie/Lester Young approach, both in the rhythm section and in the soloing, although it still is safely labelled as modern jazz. It’s not better, but it’s not worse either; it’s simply a different way of making valid music. In the 60’s the scene had changed anyway. From then we have albums by Curtis Amy, Carmell Jones, The Jazz Crusaders and others, langushing in the vaults. These were stylistically closer to the Blue Note recordings, and would probably be appreciated also by those who don’t like traditional West Coast jazz. Blue Note recently licensed a Roulette album to Label M. Perhaps licensing could be a solution for the Pacific Jazz catalogue? I’m sure Collectables, Koch, Label M etc would be interested in reissuing them. That goes for Roost/Roulette and Capitol titles too, that Blue Note has little interest in reissuing itself. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1484 | From: Sweden | Registered: Aug 99 | IP: Logged Bill Fenohr Member Member # 592 posted April 06, 2001 03:56 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JSngry, I cant go along with your analysis of West Coast Jazz wholeheartedly. The music of the fifties did put an emphasis on arrangments, but i think alot of those players were influenced by Miles (an eastcoaster) Birth Of The Cool, and were exploring that direction. Add to that the fact that many of the west coast players (Shank, Bob Copper, Charlie Mariano,etc) were big band players who were used to playing arranged music. As far as the "smooth jazz" of the day, one also has to remember that the west coast was the center of the Beat Movement in the 50's and the softer flute type stuff was what they wanted in the coffee house scene. I think groups like Chico Hamilton and The Mastersounds took this approach, but still played some highly inventive jazz. In the 60's when Dick Bock changed the name of his label from World Pacific to Pacific Jazz his roster of artists included Curtis Amy, Les McCann,Gerald Wilson,Carmell Jones,Joe Pass,Groove Holmes,and The Jazz Crusaders. At Cntemporary you had Teddy Edwards,Howard McGhee,Hampton Hawes,Phineas Newborn,Art Pepper and Barney Kessel,none of these guys exactly "foo foo" players IMHO. As far as the racial thing was concerned,west coast groups were far more likely to be intergrated then groups back east. Just look at your BN and Pretige records from the 60's if you dont believe me. If Bud Shank was more popular then Jackie,i think it was because the producers on the west coast were smart enough to realize that if you were going to sell jazz to white people in those days, it had better be something they could relate to. Most of the real sucessful stuff by west coast groups were jazz versions of broadway shows. The Mastersounds sold well with their covers of The King And I and Kismet.The Shelly Manne/Andre Previn My Fair Lady topped the jazz charts for over a year. Chico's South Pacific sold well. If the east coast black artists had a problem it was that they did'nt relate to the white record buying public. By the late 60's Pacific Jazz had been bought by Liberty and suffered the same fate as Blue Note in that they had to put out a lot of junk aimed at the crossover market. I am of the opinion that in some ways the west coast scene was far more open to experimentation in the 50's and 60's then the east and produced a hell of alot of great jazz that deserves to be heard by a new generation of fans. So there is my two cents or maybe it was a nickel. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1484 | From: Lansing,Mi,Ingham | Registered: Jan 2000 | IP: Logged JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted April 06, 2001 05:00 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill, Maybe even a dime! A lot of what you say I can agree with to a great extent, but I don't know if we're necessarily talking about the same thing. I have no problem whatsoever with arranged music (Mulligan's stuff still sounds fresh), or the "cool" sound in general (one of the first jazz LPs I bought in 1970 was a reissue of the first Chico Hamilton LP-still treasure it), but these items as well as the groups/records (except for the Previn, but that's my taste) you mention are among the works that hold up, which was kinda my point. There was a LOT of music made back then that does not (I've heard a lot of it, because my high school had 3-4 faculty who when they found out that I was getting into jazz tried to sell me on Shank as better than Bird). LOTS of assembly line sessions with soundalike charts (that's another thing-yeah, the arrangers were influenced by BOTC, but very few of them EXPLORED that direction' they often just copped the sound), generic solos, and all the cuts came in under 4:00 (not a bad thing in itself, but...), generic solos, and an overall sense of "product". Not bad players, not bad music, just not in the spirit of what we usually call "Jazz" in any but a superficial sense. In fact, Shank has been quoted, as have other players of the time, as speaking of those sessions in unflattering terms. THESE are the albums that aren't being reissued, or if they are, not by Blue Note. Pacific Jazz (it's original name-btw) & Contemporary were two quality conscious labels with overall musical integrity-they kept the foo-foo stuff to a bare minimum and usually released quality stuff. But there were MANY other labels that cranked out the assembly line stuff like clockwork, and some of the majors got in on the act. As far as the integration thing, you may be right, but again, up to a point. The west coast groups were integrated often on record, but live gigs were often (not always) something else. Did you know that Teddy Edwards was the original tenorist w/the Lighthouse All-Stars? He got bumped for a white guy for no definite reason other than the clique thing. Read about it in the aforementioned Gioa book, which is excellent.It does seem however, that things were more open between players out west, in spite of the notorious LAPD (yes folks, they were even more rascist then than they are now ) More open to experimentation? That's subjective, I suppose, but a lot of what passed for experimentation back then strikes me today as grafting on of effects rather than organic creativity. I think this was due to the whole film score mentality which most of those guys were involved in also. Again there are notable exceptions (Manne & Giuffre particularly). Don't quite know how to respond to how not being able to relate to the white record buying public being is a "problem." You could mean a couple of things by this and I wouldn't want to respond unless I knew EXACTLY what you meant. But your comments about selling Jazz to white people sort of reinforce my point about the worst west coast recordings. BTW-I feel it important to distinguish, for the sake of clarity, between "west coast jazz" (a style) & "California jazz" (a geographic designation only), that may be where some of the ambiguity comes in-Teddy Edwards played California jazz, but by no stretch of the imagination did he play "west coast" jazz. The point of my first post was NOT to denigrate or minimize "west coast" jazz, but merely to point out that if all you know are the re-issues, you're not getting the full picture of the overall scene of the time, just a selected piece of it. And a good piece at that! Are we up to 50 cents yet? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10259 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged Bill Fenohr Member Member # 592 posted April 06, 2001 05:42 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now that you have explained it more fully i think we are in agreement on most points. What i meant about selling to the white record buying public was as you say, watered down arrangements and so forth. But if that was your target market in those days,thats what you had to do. I think that same thing happened on the east coast with the rise of the bogaloo sessions in the late 60's, which was targeted to the black market. Many of those sessions are nothing to write home about either. I guess each coast had its sins. I guess that is what makes jazz so great. Everyone can find their own little nitche and just enjoy the hell out of it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1484 | From: Lansing,Mi,Ingham | Registered: Jan 2000 | IP: Logged JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted April 06, 2001 08:01 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill, Cool! (pun intended!) I personally like a lot of the boogaloo things, but yeah, a lot of them are by rote. The good ones I like because I've been around the people (in a social setting) whose lifestyle is reflected by that whole vibe. But I wouldn't expect anybody who had not had those experiences to like it for anything other than the "it's got a good beat and you can dance to it" syndrome, if that. We all bring our life to our listening. The beauty is that we can be taken by something different, explore it learn about it, and in the process grow ourselves. I kinda like that. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10259 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged Pete B. Member Member # 377 posted April 06, 2001 08:24 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'd like to throw out another point about the popularity of west coast jazz. Many of the notable players were Kenton alumni. Now, Kenton isn't exactly my cup of tea, but all the 60-something guys I know in jazz circles (these are guys I play music with from time to time) are still wild about him. To a man they tell me that Kenton WAS popular music for them in their youth. I think his influence on the west coast scene is more pervasive than Birth of the Cool. And Kenton is a lot more of a mixed bag: he really wasn't all that jazz-oriented, from what I've read, but was reaching for something more related to composed music. Again and again I read references to how his guys wanted to swing while he wanted to do "City of Glass" type things. Stan was a commercial force of the day, and I think his sound carries over into a lot of the west coast product of the day, understandably so since many of his writers/arrangers were the guys leading or arranging all those albums, including many of the really commercial ones that sound so cheesy today. MY 2 cents worth, if you please. Pete -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 603 | From: PA | Registered: Aug 99 | IP: Logged Lon Armstrong Member Member # 137 posted April 07, 2001 06:24 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Man, I love to read history like that presented by JS, and Bill, and Pete. Pete I think Kenton was a big economic factor: he hired a lot of players and arrangers who made money. . . playing a lot of stuff, some of which they probably really didn't want to. Birth of the Cool and Miles (and Mulligan both in the Birth of the Cool arrangements and separately) were I think very influential in the creation of concept and structure. And Basie's band and arrangers were very influential as well (look how important Shorty Rogers was to the scene and how important Basie was to Shorty) and Lester Young was very important both conceptually as a player/composer and directly on many many of the saxophonists, tenor and alto alike (altoists like Pepper and Desmond I hear a lot of Pres within.) More and more I have to admit how great a player Bud Shank was and IS. I have to say that these days I think I prefer him to Jackie Mac. (Scandalous eh?) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10027 | From: Austin, TX USA | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted April 07, 2001 11:57 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Lon Armstrong: More and more I have to admit how great a player Bud Shank was and IS. I have to say that these days I think I prefer him to Jackie Mac. (Scandalous eh?) No not at all-Shank is a lot less....er.....uh...shall we say......confrontational Plumbing bills are a be-atch. Makes you need smoothification. I know, just got done fixing slab leak here and even w/ins help the cost has greatly curtailed my out-of-house experiences. Actually, That's how I ended up here! Seriously though, Shank is a fine player, but for me, he falls into the Oscar Peterson school of "Respect-The Hell-Out-Of-Em-Just- Can't-Relate-To-Them-On-A-Personal-Level". I guess I want/need a little "in your face" attitude in my music as I do in my life. It's really not about style or brashness either. Actually I find Paul Desmond (for example) VERY confrontational (maybe there's a better word?) because of his extreme urbanity, his sublime wit, and his stubborn refesal to be anything other than what he was. For most artists, recording "Bridge Over Troubled Water" would be an extreme cop-out, but for Paul it was sort of a flip-o-the-bird extreme embracement of everything that he had been criticised for over the years! I guess my point is that there is a lot of jazz that is played faultlessly, swings beyond dispute, even might have a little "creativty" in there, but is sorta lacking that "personal" EDGE thing. I kinda gotta have that. It's subjective I know, but that's just me! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10259 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged Lon Armstrong Member Member # 137 posted April 07, 2001 01:48 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hear ya talking. But I just get tired of Jackie sometimes; he seems like a one trick pony sometimes, before or after plumbing disasters. Yeah lots of energy and edge, but I often hear the same material and licks over and over. Not that Shank doesn't repeat himself but he seems more versatile and is in my opinion technically more advanced. His latest sessions that I have heard are very excellent. And this morning I was listening to Bud Shank and Three Trombones and just tripping out at his ideas and phrasing. I like them both. . . but right now for ME it is Bud who has the EDGE. I don't think confrontationality has anything to do with my assessment. Also, I too am a big Paul Desmond fan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10027 | From: Austin, TX USA | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged BFrank Member Member # 1089 posted April 07, 2001 06:47 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where do The (Jazz) Crusaders fit into the "Pacific Jazz" scene? I remember liking them in the 70's and early 80's with Larry Carlton. After reading this thread decided to pull out two albums of theirs that I hardly ever listened to. Both on the Chisa(?) label from 1970/71 - The Jazz Crusaders "Old Socks, New Shoes" and The Crusaders "Pass the Plate". I had thought that these were among their first recordings, but apparently they came West from Texas about 10 years earlier. At any rate, these albums sound pretty much like their later stuff - funky, chunky guitar and up-front horns. Was their 60's music the same? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3125 | From: SF | Registered: Sep 2000 | IP: Logged Bill Fenohr Member Member # 592 posted April 08, 2001 04:03 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BFrank, The Jazz Crusaders did somewhere around 15 albums for Pacific Jazz in the sixties. Their music in those days was what might be termed a mixture of soul jazz and hard bop.Except for their first lp,Freedom Sounds,where they used Roy Gaines on guitar on a couple of tracks,they recorded as a quintet. I think the only things from this period that have made it to cd are Freedom Sounds, Lighthouse 66',The Best Of,Lighthouse 68',Uh Huh and Powerhouse. Im not sure but the Lighthouse 66' may be the only one still in print. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1484 | From: Lansing,Mi,Ingham | Registered: Jan 2000 | IP: Logged JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted April 08, 2001 04:25 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Jazz Crusaders stemmed from Houston. Their "Pacific Jazz" output was pretty good overall (in my opinion), but some of the live dates have VERY obvious splices that are rather jarring, and they did do their fair share, perhaps a little more, of "crossover" material. But, hey, those cats could/still can play, you know? I wonder, do newer listeners consider these guys "West Coast Jazz"? If so, that would explain in part why some don't understand the negative connotation that that phrase has come to have for some. Useless trivia-future Dr.Death, er , Dr. George Butler-era Blue Note SOOPERstar Ronnie "Pressure Sensitive" Laws was a member of the Houston band who moved to LA and became the Jazz Crusaders. Why he stayed behind, I'll leave to those with a higher capacity for useless trivia than me. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10259 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged saminaz Member Member # 580 posted April 08, 2001 05:39 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It was older brother Hubert not Ronnie that was one of the founding members of the Crusaders. Ronnie was only 4 years old when the band formed. Just a guess,but Hubert was a classically trained flautist and may have simply wanted to follow a different path. I'm glad he did. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 447 | From: Phx. AZ | Registered: Dec 1999 | IP: Logged JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted April 08, 2001 06:22 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- my bad-long night-good gig-bad brain Hubert not Ronnie DOH! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10259 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged saminaz Member Member # 580 posted April 08, 2001 06:28 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JS, not to fret, I'm surprised I remembered this at all ! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 447 | From: Phx. AZ | Registered: Dec 1999 | IP: Logged Ed Swinnich Member Member # 72 posted April 08, 2001 06:43 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've only begun exploring west coast jazz in the past two years with the acquisition of the West Coast Classics, some Mulligan, Baker, Desmond, Getz, Kenton and a bunch of other stuff. The comments above have certainly shed some light onto what was the entire scene at the time it was happening and have been interesting reading. Being so far removed chronologically from the actual scene - 40 or so years - perhaps I am getting a different version of what the overall west coast sound was. If there was a lot of watered down foo foo music at the time, I say so what. We have the same thing today with smooth jazz and probably had it in the 60s on the east coast as well. While we all know and love Blue Note and recognize it as a creative force in hard bop, I can't imagine that every band playing in clubs on the east coast in the late 50s and through the 60s was creating hard bop masterpieces and breaking new creative gound. IMO, it appears that what I am getting from Pacific Jazz throught Michael Cuscuna and Blue Note appears to be the cream of the west coast crop. To me, that can't be a bad thing. While there was disagreement above about on certain points, I think there was agreement that Pacific Jazz is an excellent label with lots of great stuff in the vaults. As long as Blue Note keeps putting it out, I'll be happy. But therein is the problem. Poor sales. If there is a stigma attached to the west coast sound, I wish that more of the jazz buying public would let their ears be the judge and give west coast JAZZ a shot. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1348 | From: Orchard Park, NY | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Roger Hiles Member Member # 827 posted April 08, 2001 08:01 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Musical discussions aside, had PJ been acquired by Fantasy instead of Liberty its albums would probably be as accessible as those of Contemporary are today. Corporate economics is a bigger factor in the lack of PJ reissues than musical quality IMO. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 158 | From: Fountain Valley, Calif. | Registered: Apr 2000 | IP: Logged mjzee Member Member # 1216 posted April 08, 2001 09:06 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amen to that, Roger. Fantasy may seem not as exciting or as interactive as Blue Note (no bulletin board there), but I find it amazing (especially from a corporate profits standpoint) that they keep all these titles in print. Think of all the artists, both greater and lesser, that Fantasy keeps in print! After the last Down Beat critics poll (in which I think Blue Note won the "Best Label" category), they printed a letter from Fantasy that said, in effect, "we don't get no respect!" I think there's a lot of truth to that. In terms of keeping the music available and accessible, we need to acknowledge that Fantasy contributes a lot towards keeping jazz alive. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 737 | From: Connecticut | Registered: Nov 2000 | IP: Logged Joe Member Member # 118 posted April 08, 2001 09:13 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by mjzee: Fantasy may seem not as exciting or as interactive as Blue Note (no bulletin board there), but I find it amazing (especially from a corporate profits standpoint) that they keep all these titles in print. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank Saul Zaentz... errr, I mean, John Fogerty's attorneys. "A cash cow goes MOOOOO!" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3900 | From: Dallas, TX USA | Registered: Apr 99 | IP: Logged Rachel Member Member # 1631 posted April 08, 2001 11:20 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This has been a good discussion! For those more acquainted with the label, what "cream" of Pacific Jazz is still left to skim? I already mentioned Bud Shank, but I'd also like to hear more Bill Perkins. I have three PJ albums with Perkins (On Stage, Grand Encounter, Tenors Head On). Are there more? Are there any PJ artists that have yet to be represented on compact disc? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 40 | From: Los Angeles, CA | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged Rachel Member Member # 1631 posted April 08, 2001 11:22 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oops, I also have the PJ disc with Perkins and Shank. Make it four. Same question: Any more? I love Perkins' sound. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 40 | From: Los Angeles, CA | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted April 08, 2001 01:00 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let me say up front that I don't know what'a available/in print on CD or not anymore, as my "collecting" these days pretty much consists of keeping an ear open for "private" live tapes,so if these are "obvious" choices, apologies in advance The highlight of the PJ catalogue to my taste is "2 Degrees East Three Degrees West", a jam date w/Perkins, Jim Hall, John Lewis, Percy Heath, and Chico Hamilton. Perk's solo on "Almost Like Being In Love" is one of the most beautiful moments in all of recorded jazz, bar none. One for the ages. Anything by the ORIGINAL Hamilton quintet w/Collette, Hall, etc. is worth your while. later editions climb higher on the "FooFoo" scale, but still are decent enough if you enjoy the group sound more than the individual playing. Shank did a couple of intresting sessions that reflect an early intrest in "world music"- one a brazillian date with some trio whose name escapes me (Zimbao? If I did research before posting I could seem wise!) but is VERY nice, and another one with a KOTO player from Japan. Intresting works both, and worth lobying for. Perkins was everywhere in those days, and his presence on a date is not an automatic guarantee off a quality date. It is however usually a guarantee of quality Perkins (I believe it was Getz who was quoted at the time as saying "Bill's playing more than all of us these days"). The guy was in a DEEP zone for a while where that Lester Float Thing just came out of him effortlessly, endlessly, and beautifully. Some of the short solos he played in Woody's band just make time stand still! THAT kind of playing didn't last too long for him (how could it?) but he remained a very tasty, sensitive player who unfortunately allowed himself to be swallowed up by the whole LA studio scene, but he's still playing today, and very nicely at that. I know that Mulligan's "California Concerts" vols 1&2 were out for a while and if you haven't heard those by all means do-it's x-cell-ent! Any date with arrangements by Bill Holman will at least contain good writing. The earlier the date is, the fresher it's likely to be, just because the guy got so many many calls-these guys were often doing 3-6 sessions PER DAY!(not all were jazz, but work's work and time don't stand still-except in a good Bill Perkins solo ); after a while you develop patterns and formulas just to get the work out. No shame there-we all do it, merely an observation. That to me, along with the whole Mulligan- Baker scene is kinda the highlight reel of the 50's Pacific Jazz scene. As a sidenote, the World Pacific label released seemingly massive amounts of Indian music, especially Ravi Shankar. I believe that their role in facilitating the 60's intrest in Indian music and such has not been properly acknowledged. But the thing that is most deserving of reissue and permanent availability from the World Pacific holdings is thier Lord Buckley stuff. If you know who he was, you understand. If you don't, I can't really describe him other than as a hipster monologist who combined an awesome command of language and vernacular with a keen sense of the absurd. Don't sound too intresting does it? But trust me-the cat ROCKED! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10259 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged BFrank Member Member # 1089 posted April 08, 2001 06:13 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, JSngry, Lord Buckley was certainly "a most immaculately hip aristocrat". "The Train" is one of those that rocks, BTW. A really great album on World Pacific is Ernie Watts "Planet Love". I believe that it is his first album as a leader - he came up through Buddy Rich's band. It features a band that I'm not familiar with, but they are very strong: Clarence McDonald (p), Stanley Gilbert (B), and Robert Morin (d). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3125 | From: SF | Registered: Sep 2000 | IP: Logged JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted April 08, 2001 06:51 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, since you mention Ernie Watts, another west-coast-incubated studio whiz with pop-jazz tendencies (yeah I know about Watts w/Haden, but BEFORE that ) made some of his earliest, if not first recordings on Pacific Jazz (the World Pacific/Pacific Jazz thing got a little weird at times), and that is Tom Scott-first w/ Don Ellis on "Live in 3 2/3 Time" and a little later on a Roger Kellaway live date called "Spirit Feel." Neither of these albums is essential in my opinion, but they don't suck either. BTW-I hope this endless litany of albums and history doesn't seem boorish. I just enjoy talking about the music and encounters with various records I've had along the way! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10259 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged Lon Armstrong Member Member # 137 posted April 09, 2001 03:43 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Paul Bryants and Curtis Amys and Carmell Jones on Pacific Jazz are all very good (and very hard boppy/soul jazzy). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10027 | From: Austin, TX USA | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Lon Armstrong Member Member # 137 posted April 09, 2001 06:50 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And Clare Fisher's debut recording is excellent, making me want MORE! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10027 | From: Austin, TX USA | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted April 09, 2001 02:16 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yo Lon- You hip to Fischer's "Thesaurus" bigband LP on Atlantic? The chart on "Lennie's Pennies" alone is worth the cost of admission AND Warne Marsh plays a solo on it that STILL messes my mind up after hearing it (and learningsingingdreamingaboutit) for the last 30 years! I believe its on Discovery (?)cd now called something else besides Thesaurus (a lotta help I know but you da' man when it comes to that kinda thing!) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10259 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged Doctor Brown Member Member # 1220 posted April 09, 2001 03:50 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That Bud Shank brazilian date; was it with the Zimbo Trio ? Great trio! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 122 | From: Rio de Janeiro-Brazil | Registered: Nov 2000 | IP: Logged JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted April 09, 2001 05:20 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Doctor shoots, scores, and gets paid in cash! Zimbo it is! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10259 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted April 09, 2001 10:15 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just Remembered! Another essential Pacific Jazz Album is Chico Hamilton's debut-a trio with Howard Roberts and George Duvivier ca. 1953-54. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10259 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged Lon Armstrong Member Member # 137 posted April 10, 2001 03:39 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Haven't heard that one JS; something to look for---thanks! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10027 | From: Austin, TX USA | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged mikeweil Member Member # 1606 posted April 16, 2001 05:18 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by saminaz: Just a guess,but Hubert was a classically trained flautist and may have simply wanted to follow a different path. I'm glad he did. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Most people seem to forget that Hubert Laws played in Mongo Santamaria's band for seven (!) years in the 1960's doubling on flute and tenor; he conributed many great pieces to the band's repertoire and in my opinion was perhaps the one writer in Mongo's band who best understood the specific mixture of Cuban music, R & B and jazz Mongo was after. His two Atlantic LP's "Flute-by-laws" and "The Laws of Jazz" give some more evidence for this. Of course he was classically trained, but had strong roots in R & B as well; his first CTI LP was a pure soul jazz album. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 594 | From: Germany | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged pacjazz Member Member # 1644 posted April 16, 2001 06:26 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Clare Fischer's " Extension " LP - Keep waiting for this one to show up on cd ( domestic or import ), my vinyl copy is pretty worn. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 42 | From: New Orleans | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged BFrank Member Member # 1089 posted April 16, 2001 11:32 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think that many people remember that George Duke was actually good in his early years. I have a Richard Bock produced album called "Save the Country" on Liberty Pacific Jazz Series with John Heard (B), Dick Berk (d) and Ernie Watts (ts) among others. Then there's a World Pacific date called "The Jean-Luc Ponty Experience with the George Duke Trio" featuring - once again - Berk and Heard. Since I have been wondering about the Gerald Wilson Mosaic, I decided to pick up a used copy of "Portraits" to see what he's all about. If the rest of the set is as good as this, I will definitely have to move it up on my "to get" list. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3125 | From: SF | Registered: Sep 2000 | IP: Logged JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted April 17, 2001 12:01 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by BFrank: If the rest of the set is as good as this, I will definitely have to move it up on my "to get" list. It is! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10259 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged champ Member Member # 243 posted April 17, 2001 05:58 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't see any mention of the VSOP label. Check this out for some oustanding sessions. The Nocturne recordings are also great.All should be easily available in America. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 897 | From: Tokyo Japan | Registered: Jun 99 | IP: Logged jhr Member Member # 659 posted April 17, 2001 10:30 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Clare Fischer: THESAURUS was reissued by Koch Jazz last year. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 217 | From: Roseville, MN, USA | Registered: Feb 2000 | IP: Logged JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted April 17, 2001 11:41 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- jhr-you costin me money, man. DONT STOP! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10259 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged Quote
Late Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 Where are Bill Fenohr and Roger Hiles? Quote
danasgoodstuff Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 As far as the 'collectability' of Pacific Jazz goes, a copy of PJ-1227 Jim Hall Jazz Guitar recently went for $308.96 on eBay (item #2577494553). Considering that it was a first pressing and only the edited 2nd pressing masters remain, I'm surprised it wasn't more. Unfortunately I can't afford to bid that high! Quote
Daniel A Posted December 9, 2003 Author Report Posted December 9, 2003 As far as the 'collectability' of Pacific Jazz goes, a copy of PJ-1227 Jim Hall Jazz Guitar recently went for $308.96 on eBay (item #2577494553). Considering that it was a first pressing and only the edited 2nd pressing masters remain, I'm surprised it wasn't more. Unfortunately I can't afford to bid that high! I got a first pressing locally for $45 just a month ago! I couldn't imagine it was going for that much!!! (I even started a thread about that album: http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=4639 ) Quote
Daniel A Posted December 9, 2003 Author Report Posted December 9, 2003 Where are Bill Fenohr and Roger Hiles? See this post by P.D. for more alarming indications: http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php...=80entry83115 Anyone else who has been in touch with Bill? His last post here was from March 17th, and on AAJ March 20th. Quote
danasgoodstuff Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 It (Jim Hall Jazz Guitar 1st pressing) goes for that much because a really clean copy, in effect, is the master--it's the only way to get the unedited takes and the only way to get one tune at all. Quote
Jim R Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 JSngry Member Member # 1611 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...Shank did a couple of intresting sessions that reflect an early intrest in "world music"- one a brazillian date with some trio whose name escapes me (Zimbao?)... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ... Doctor Brown Member Member # 1220 posted April 09, 2001 03:50 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That Bud Shank brazilian date; was it with the Zimbo Trio ? Great trio! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted April 09, 2001 05:20 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Doctor shoots, scores, and gets paid in cash! Zimbo it is! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmm... Maybe I missed something, but I'm not familiar with a Shank recording with the Zimbo Trio. I know Sonny Stitt did a recording with them, but I'm not familiar with any Shank/Zimbo collaberation. Shank toured Brazil (at least on one visit) with a great Brazilian jazz pianist, Tenorio Jr., and I know that he recorded on PJ with various Brazilians (and Americans), including Clare Fischer, Ralph Pena, Larry Bunker, Bob Neel, Milt Holland, Frank Guerrero, Joe Pass, Chuck Flores, Joao Donato, Rosinha de Valença, Sebastiao Neto, Chico Batera, and Sergio Mendes. I think the PJ albums were BRASAMBA and BRAZIL BRAZIL BRAZIL. Anyway, did I miss a Shank date with the Zimbo Trio? Quote
JSngry Posted December 10, 2003 Report Posted December 10, 2003 Maybe not, Jim. I was operating on memory back then, and remembered a PJ/WP album with very broad red and bluish brushstrokes on a white backdrop saying "Bud Shank" & "Zimbo Trio" on the cover. But you're talking the experiences of a teenager in a cutout bin more than 30 years ago, so no telling what it REALLY said. I just Googlemoogled, and found nothing. Maybe there was a seperate Zimbo album with that cover in that bin in close proximity to this one: and my memory has combined them. Stranger things have happened... Quote
Jim R Posted December 10, 2003 Report Posted December 10, 2003 Well, I'd still like to hold out some hope that you were right, and that Google™ is simply letting us down (as if ). Anyway, if you happen to come across this 2 CD set on Ubatuqui (Spain), grab the sucker!: Quote
brownie Posted December 10, 2003 Report Posted December 10, 2003 I ran into that Bud Shank Bossa Nova Years 2CD set from Spain recently. Had no idea what this was about but grabbed it. It's really a very enjoyable set! Quote
Late Posted December 10, 2003 Report Posted December 10, 2003 (edited) Not adding much, but these are probably still my favorite Shank sides on record: The DVD of "Barefoot Adventure" is actually quite fun. Certainly worth renting, and I'm pretty sure it even includes some music not found on the Mosaic. Edited November 19, 2022 by Late Quote
Jim R Posted December 12, 2003 Report Posted December 12, 2003 I think the PJ albums were BRASAMBA and BRAZIL BRAZIL BRAZIL. A little research tells me I was wrong. The tracks on that Ubatuqui CD were taken from PJ LP's "Bossa Nova Jazz Samba", "Brasamba", and "Bud Shank And His Brazilian Friends". I just remembered that one of the tracks is a 1962 recording of Clare Fischer's "Pensativa", with Fischer on piano. Made my day, as this has become a favorite tune lately (I knew about it, but must have taken it for granted). Quote
Deep Groove Posted December 12, 2003 Report Posted December 12, 2003 Thank you Daniel A for posting this thread. Mosaic Select seems to be the best hope to aquire items out of the Pacific Jazz catalog if you're not lucky enough to be able to score them on vinyl. One note: maybe it's just me, but I think the quality of the material used in Pacific Jazz LP's might be higher than some of the other contemporaneous labels (as in considering two records in similar condition, the PJ release often plays better). I've had a heyday buying up VG(+) condition LP's off of ebay, and they play amazingly well. In fact, I was listening to the 10" Chet Baker Sextet LP last night--which looks like I used it to mop the floor--and the sound was excellent. Must be something to do with the quality of the vinyl itself (the orginal Contemporarys are this way to my ears, too). Quote
wesbed Posted February 3, 2005 Report Posted February 3, 2005 (edited) The DVD of "Barefoot Adventure" is actually quite fun. Certainly worth renting, and I'm pretty sure it even includes some music not found on the Mosaic. I just completed my first viewing of Barefoot Adventure. What a cool film! It's neat to see the footage of California and Hawaii in the early 1960s. The director, Bruce Brown, adds some witty commentary and a words of surfing history. The film is enjoyable and the soundtrack is great. Since being familiar with the Barefoot Adventure soundtrack via the Bud Shank Mosaic, it's interesting to see how well the music matches the surfing scenes in the film. Yes, the film does contain some music not found in the Mosaic box. Edited February 3, 2005 by wesbed Quote
Son-of-a-Weizen Posted February 3, 2005 Report Posted February 3, 2005 BFrank Member Member # 1089 posted April 16, 2001 11:32 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think that many people remember that George Duke was actually good in his early years. I have a Richard Bock produced album called "Save the Country" on Liberty Pacific Jazz Series with John Heard (B), Dick Berk (d) and Ernie Watts (ts) among others. Interesting. I'd have to admit to being totally in the dark on this as well. I hear the name George Duke.....I think Zappa. So how's this LP? Does it pre-date the other 'Jazz Workshop' one, also w/Heard? Quote
JSngry Posted February 3, 2005 Report Posted February 3, 2005 I hear the name George Duke.....I think Zappa. Duke also did some fine work w/Cannonball before going into the crossover realm. Quote
jazzbo Posted February 3, 2005 Report Posted February 3, 2005 YUP. Wish some more of that Cannon stuff would be reissued. Quote
ghost of miles Posted February 3, 2005 Report Posted February 3, 2005 I hear ya on the George Duke. Just yesterday I was taping a Coltrane big-band program, in which I used Gerald Wilson's 1969 version of "Equinox"... Looked at the notes to see who was playing the piano solo, which I was enjoying, and issued a "Whoa!" at the name of George Duke. In the immortal words of A MIGHTY WIND--"wha'happen?" Quote
Joe Posted February 3, 2005 Report Posted February 3, 2005 Count me as a fan of those Jean-Luc Ponty / George Duke collaborations on Pacific Jazz / World Pacific... Quote
ghost of miles Posted May 4, 2006 Report Posted May 4, 2006 Up for Matthew & other P-Jazz fans. Quote
Matthew Posted May 4, 2006 Report Posted May 4, 2006 Thanks a 1,000,000 . BTW, geat show on Nina last week. Quote
Late Posted November 19, 2022 Report Posted November 19, 2022 Clifford Scott: Out Front Pacific Jazz: Selected Cover Gallery Quote
mikeweil Posted November 19, 2022 Report Posted November 19, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Late said: Clifford Scott: Out Front Pacific Jazz: Selected Cover Gallery Cuscuna should have paired this with the Groove Holmes session with Scott, McCann and Pass! Edited November 19, 2022 by mikeweil Quote
Late Posted November 19, 2022 Report Posted November 19, 2022 4 minutes ago, mikeweil said: Cuscuna should have paired this with the Groove Holmes session with Scott, McCann and Pass! Or the Charles Kynard with Clifford Scott session. Not Pacific Jazz, but Clifford Scott just kills it on this one: Quote
mikeweil Posted November 19, 2022 Report Posted November 19, 2022 5 hours ago, Late said: Or the Charles Kynard with Clifford Scott session. I think I have a DL of this one on some hard drive ..... thanks for the reminder! Quote
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