Chrome Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 Just one of those things I'm curious about ... is it just like a slide but with trumpety kinds of buttons to produce the different notes? Does it sound just like a slide trombone? Are/were there any notable jazz players? Does anyone have a pic of one? Quote
couw Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 click here for pics. As for the sound, I would like to know more myself. How do you hear it's a vtb being played? Quote
Jazz Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 Mostly the way I can tell whether it's a valve or not is by the range and the articulations (which remind one of a trumpet, maybe because of those consistently "punchy" attacks you usually won't hear with a slide). The range is much lower than a trumpet, and the timbre of a trombone is much much warmer, so that rules out it being a trumpet. This isn't the best method though, because some bone players (like J.J. Johnson, I believe) could play bop on a slide trombone. A really experienced listener or player can probably tell the difference between a valve or slide bone by listening to the timbre, because I do believe there is a sound quality difference between a valve bone and a slide bone, my ear is just not sharp enough to catch it. Just some personal observations there... Quote
king ubu Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 I used to know a trombone (and tuba, and generally low-end sound fan) player who used to say a valve trombone was nothing else than a tenor trumpet. If this is not only a polemical saying, then what about bass trumpet? (You know the thing Cy Touff played). ubu Quote
John Tapscott Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 Some notable valve trombonists off the top of my head; Bob Brookmeyer Rob McConnell Maynard Ferguson (through the '50's and '60's). Later he played a Superbone, a combination of valve and slide. It was kind of wild watching him play it. Listening to Brookmeyer and or McConnell will give you an good idea of what a valve 'bone sounds like. Peronally I think the sound is a bit more "hollow" and perhaps less focussed than the slide' bone, which makes some sense since the air has to pass through more tubing. McConnell can really play the thing loud at times, though. My guess is that it probably takes a bit more "air" and effort to play than the slide 'bone, though on the other hand, valves are easier to play than the slide. Also, with a valve you don't get the Dixieland-type smears and I imagine the valve gives more tuning problems. Quote
JSngry Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 (edited) Bob Brookmeyer is the most famous exponent of the instrument. Other players of note include Maynard Ferguson, Marshall Brown, and Clifford Thornton. Tone is (usually) more like a baritone horn/euphonium, and the articulation (again, usually) gives it away. Slide involves lots of tonguing and using lots of "false" positions (playing a partial of a note rather than the note itself) to play rapidly, whereas valve t-bone is like any other valved brass instrument. That's a big generalization, but still is true in a big generalization kind of way. Edited December 9, 2003 by JSngry Quote
Jazz Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 Bob Brookmeyer is the most famous exponent of the instrument. Other players of note include Maynard Ferguson, Marshall Brown, and Clifford Thornton. Tone is (usually) more like a baritone horn/euphonium, and the articulation (again, usually) gives it away. Slide involves lots of tonguing and using lots of "false" positions (playing a partial of a note rather than the note itself) to play rapidly, whereas valve t-bone is like any other valved brass instrument. That's a big generalization, but still is true in a big generalization kind of way. Wow thanks! That gives me a much better clue what to listen for. Quote
catesta Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 Juan Tizol with the Ellington band played valve trombone. Quote
JSngry Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 Well, Brookmeyer does/did a lot of half-valve effects that I would say were indiginous to the valve bone, except that Dicky Wells did some semi-similar things on slide by means of mouthpiece placement and direction of airflow. (others probably did, too, but Wells is who I know best for doing this) But if you hear a TRUE half-valve sound, you can bet it's a valve bone. HAS to be. Quote
JSngry Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 Juan Tizol with the Ellington band played valve trombone. DOH!!! How could I forget? Quote
Rooster_Ties Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 Just for variety (since I hardly ever hear it), I rather like valve trombone. Have there been any significant valve trombonists in the modern era?? (Meaning recordings made roughly sometime in the last 40 years???) I know of a guy up in Chicago (Ryan Shultz) who's main axe is bass trumpet. He's probably in his 40's by now (mid to late 40’s, I’d guess). The few recordings I've heard him on (and hearing him live once) have really made me wish that more guys took up the bass trumpet... ...and I'm sure my attraction to it would be the same as for valve trombone (and for the same reasons). Any recommendations of recordings since 1960 that feature value trombone??? Much appreciated, if such animals do actually exist. My impression also is that value trombonists are rather looked down upon, since it's gotta be a WAY easier instrument to play, in terms of tuning and intonation. I’d also be curious to hear Free For All’s opinion about value trombone. Does he, by chance, happen to own one?? (And if so, under what circumstances does he have any reason to even play it??) Quote
couw Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 Marshall Brown played vtb with Pee Wee Russell's group in the 60s featured a.o. on the recent verve mini LP "Ask Me Now" Quote
Chrome Posted December 9, 2003 Author Report Posted December 9, 2003 You know, I considered just "Googling" this, but thought I'd get a better response here ... and I did! Thanks! Quote
John Tapscott Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 Any recommendations of recordings since 1960 that feature value trombone??? Much appreciated, if such animals do actually exist. Absolutely they exist. Here's three off the top of my head in which valve trombone is the ONLY horn. Bob Brookmeyer Quartet - Live at Sandy's (I think that's the name of it) - a live double LP on Gryphon rec. 1978 - Jack Wilkins, guitar, Michael Moore, bass, Joe Labarbera (I think) drums. I believe this has been reissued on CD. Loads of valve 'bone on this one. Rob McConnell - Trio Sketches (Concord) 1993 - Neil Swainson, bass, Ed Bickert guitar Rob McConnell - Three For the Road (Concord) 1996 - Don Thompson, bass and piano, Ed Bickert, guitar Of course, I could mention all the big band recordings by Brookmeyer and McConnell, but on these their horn (as opposed to their composing/arranging) is up front. Quote
jazzbo Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 (edited) Among other instruments, Brad Gowens was a real goer on the valve trombone! Edited December 9, 2003 by jazzbo Quote
JSngry Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 Brookmeyer continued to grow as a player and made good records well into the 60s before concentrating more on his writing. You can hear him w/Thad & Mel, and a really nifty quintet he had w/Clark Terry, Roger Kellaway, Bill Crow, and Dave Bailey. Or COULD hear if the Mainstream label was being reissued... Also, Clifford Thornton might be too much in the "unschooled free" bag for many here, but he made some very passionate music on the instrument. FREEDOM AND UNITY is all that's currently available, though. Quote
catesta Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 Any recommendations of recordings since 1960 that feature value trombone??? Much appreciated, if such animals do actually exist. RT, this is one that comes to mind. Quote
Free For All Posted December 9, 2003 Report Posted December 9, 2003 Some more recent Brookmeyer recordings I enjoy: Bob Brookmeyer and Friends (Stan Getz, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter, Gary Burton, Elvin Jones)1964 The Bob Brookmeyer Quartet Oslo (Alan Broadbent, Eric Von Essen, Michael Stephens)1986 The Bob Brookmeyer New Quartet Paris Suite (Kris Goessens, Riccardo Del Fra, Dre Pallemaerts)1993 Bob Brookmeyer and Kenny Wheeler Island (Frank Carlberg, Jeremy Allen, John Hollenbeck) 2003 The Brookmeyer large ensemble recordings are a whole 'nother thread........ To answer Rooster's question- I don't think slide trombonists "look down" on the valve trombone. it's certainly not 'cheating" because valve trombone has its own set of challenges. It's a different instrument- to my ears, a much different timbre, more "tubby" like euphonium. It is more difficult to achieve a good blend in a big band section when there's a valve trombone present. The fact that there are only a handful of notables on the instrument is a testament to its popularity. It's hard to play well, not for the reasons that trombone is a difficult instrument, but because the physics of the valve trombone make it hard to get a strictly trombone-like sound. This is why I think of it as a different instrument- it needs to be played as much like a trumpet as it does a trombone. I love to listen to Brookmeyer play, not because he's playing valve trombone, but because he's a creative and thematic improvising musician. No, I don't own one, Rooster, but I have played several and it's just not for me. I find the challenges of the slide trombone more than fill my available practice time! Quote
brownie Posted December 10, 2003 Report Posted December 10, 2003 Another excellent valve trombonist is Bob Enevoldsen whose nasal sound was heard pn a lot of West Coast dates (Shorty Rogers, Art Pepper, Mel Torme/Marty Paich among others). Enevoldsen also played on a couple of recent Bill Holman big band sessions. Quote
Harold_Z Posted December 10, 2003 Report Posted December 10, 2003 Brad Gowans, at some point later in his career, actually invented a combination instrument that could be played simoultaneously as a valve or slide trombone. How this worked is explained pretty well in Dick Sudhalter's LOST CHORDS, in the chapter on Brad. It was pretty ingenious and any of you guys that have Eddie Condon's Decca cd can hear it on FAREWELL BLUES. It's also on the corresponding CLASSICS cd. Quote
king ubu Posted December 10, 2003 Report Posted December 10, 2003 Another excellent valve trombonist is Bob Enevoldsen whose nasal sound was heard pn a lot of West Coast dates (Shorty Rogers, Art Pepper, Mel Torme/Marty Paich among others). Enevoldsen also played on a couple of recent Bill Holman big band sessions. I wanted to mention Enevoldsen and then forgot again. I love his playing very very much. He was present on many good west coast sessions I cherish, being part of the Marty Paich circe. His work on the Mel Tormé albums on Bethlehem is indeed outstanding! ubu Quote
alankin Posted December 10, 2003 Report Posted December 10, 2003 And then there's the slide trumpet!! Quote
JSngry Posted December 10, 2003 Report Posted December 10, 2003 (edited) If I'm wrong on this, I hope that Paul or somebody will correct me, but I think that the valve bone presents its player with some unique intonation challenges. When I was at NT, an instructor named Rich Matteson (some of you might have heard of him) played a lot of valve bone (and tuba!) before switching to euphonium almost exclusively. He wasn't a particular favorite of mine as either player or instructor, but I had the highest respect for his knowledge and abilities. I know he recorded some but on what instrument, I can't remember. but it would have been in the 70s. Think he did an album w/Phil Wilson fersure. Edited December 10, 2003 by JSngry Quote
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