Ebay/Paypal Dispute - What are my options

[Dan Gould]

I am going to consult the Paypal T&Cs but I wanted to bring this up and see what people advise.

About a month ago I sold some plumbing fixtures on behalf of my sister-in-law. She bought them new at the going-out-of-business sale at the local Home Depot Expo. She was stupid since she didn't understand what it would cost to rip out the existing tile work to install her new tub fixtures but once she realized this, she asked me to sell them for her, keeping half of whatever I could get.

So - I put them up, with pictures, listing them as new in the box, describing the sale as being "as-is" and choosing "no refund". I did not want any problems with these sales because someone thinks they don't look like they thought they would or find out that some oddball element of their set up leaves them unusable. So far, so good except for one lunatic bitch in Kentucky.

She claims they aren't "new" and initially asked me if I had tried to install them, couldn't and then tried to sell them as new. So she files a "substantially different from listing" claim, and also states that there is some sort of internal damage that prevents her from installing it, and the manufacturer won't deal with her direct, but she can't take it to the store even if I had given her the receipt.

Bottom line: I've just learned that she "won" the case provided she sends the box back. This despite the fact that the pictures showed the box contents were pristine and obviously new; my pointing out that anyone buying something new from a third party incurs a risk that its new but has a manufacturing defect; and that if ebay allows "no refund" sales than they should enforce those terms.

It is total and complete fucking bullshit.

So - what are my options? When she filed the initial complaint, they sucked out the $11 that was in my Paypal account, and left it in a $60 negative balance. They say

You should receive the item(s) within the next 10-14 days.

Once we have confirmed that the buyer returned the items, we'll process a refund using funds from your account.

So - I guess one option is to refuse delivery. No proof of delivery means she hasn't met their requirement of return of the item, no refund.

But my real concern is what power does Paypal have over my account? I can "add funds" from my associated bank account - can they "take funds" out of the bank account to satisfy this charge? Or will they pay it and leave my account at a negative $60 unless I add money?

I also see an easy option - I go to my bank and arrange for a new account number. Not a big deal since I don't have direct deposit, and I only pay three bills online from that account. So I could update records in no time at all, and now Paypal can go fuck themselves if they try to take my money. (I initially tried to "remove" the bank account but was prevented with a message that negative-balance accounts can't remove their bank information - this is why I suspect that they may try to access the bank account to satisfy the charge.)

Slightly harder option would be going to the bank to try to state that Paypal does not have a valid connection to the account and they must not honor any charges. I have to wonder if I contest a charge after the fact if the bank will stand behind me, since it won't be a case of a stolen or hacked card.

Any advice is appreciated.

[Chalupa]

Short answer - you're screwed.

Paypal's/eBay's new rules definitely favor the buyer in disputes. A friend of mine sold some Wedgwood to a buyer in India for $500. He sent the package with tracking and insurance. The item got lost in India's customs. Buyer did a claim through Paypal and my friend had the full amount of the purchase(including shipping fees) sucked out of his bank account. To make matters worse, USPS won't give him(seller) a refund because as far as they are concerned the package was delivered and India's customs lost it.

Edited May 4, 2010 by J.H. Deeley

[Dan Gould]

That's what I suspect and find totally outrageous. I am more concerned that they sucked the money out of his bank account (it was his bank account, right?) because I did find this in the User Agreement:

10.3 Reimbursement for Your Liability. In the event that you are liable for any amounts owed to PayPal, PayPal may immediately remove such amounts from your Balance. If you do not have a Balance that is sufficient to cover your liability, your Account will have a negative Balance and you will be required to immediately add funds to your Balance to eliminate the negative Balance. If you do not do so, PayPal may engage in collection efforts to recover such amounts from you.

So I figured that I wouldn't have to change my bank account number but I would be subject to collection efforts.

This is really infuriating but my best option may ultimately be to try to raise another $60 out of my LP listings.

And I can't even place negative feedback on this bitch's profile!

[Chalupa]

That's what I suspect and find totally outrageous. I am more concerned that they sucked the money out of his bank account (it was his bank account, right?) because I did find this in the User Agreement:

10.3 Reimbursement for Your Liability. In the event that you are liable for any amounts owed to PayPal, PayPal may immediately remove such amounts from your Balance. If you do not have a Balance that is sufficient to cover your liability, your Account will have a negative Balance and you will be required to immediately add funds to your Balance to eliminate the negative Balance. If you do not do so, PayPal may engage in collection efforts to recover such amounts from you.

So I figured that I wouldn't have to change my bank account number but I would be subject to collection efforts.

This is really infuriating but my best option may ultimately be to try to raise another $60 out of my LP listings.

And I can't even place negative feedback on this bitch's profile!

Sorry, I just double checked. He(seller) had to deposit $500+ into his Paypal account. Now if it had been me I would told them to take a hike but he does a LOT of selling on eBay so he had to pay to unfreeze his Paypal/eBay accounts. End result - he longer ships to India.

[Brownian Motion]

Ebay assumes most sellers are dishonest to a degree, and Ebay is fine with--and even encourages--dishonesty on the part of its sellers, as long as they don't get caught by a buyer, but if they do--

Ebay will turn on their sellers with a merciless fury, because--

Right or wrong, buyers are more precious than sellers.

And that's the way it is.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Brownian Motion

[Dave Garrett]

That's what I suspect and find totally outrageous. I am more concerned that they sucked the money out of his bank account (it was his bank account, right?) because I did find this in the User Agreement:

10.3 Reimbursement for Your Liability. In the event that you are liable for any amounts owed to PayPal, PayPal may immediately remove such amounts from your Balance. If you do not have a Balance that is sufficient to cover your liability, your Account will have a negative Balance and you will be required to immediately add funds to your Balance to eliminate the negative Balance. If you do not do so, PayPal may engage in collection efforts to recover such amounts from you.

So I figured that I wouldn't have to change my bank account number but I would be subject to collection efforts.

This is really infuriating but my best option may ultimately be to try to raise another $60 out of my LP listings.

And I can't even place negative feedback on this bitch's profile!

This is strictly anecdotal, as it's never happened to me, and PayPal may have changed their rules regarding this, but I have heard of many instances in the past where PayPal sucked money out of users' bank accounts without asking when their PayPal balance was insufficient to cover a claim. I believe it used to be explicitly stated in their T&C that they reserved the right to do so.

That is why you should never have your primary bank account linked to a PayPal account. They may require you to have a bank account in order to use their service, but smart PayPal users will set up a bank account exclusively for use with PayPal, maintain only the minimum balance in it sufficient to keep the account active (in my case, around $50), and sweep the PayPal account of incoming funds as soon as they clear. eBay and PayPal are definitely gamed in favor of buyers these days, and their seller protection policies are a joke.

[Big Beat Steve]

I sympathize with you all and unfortunately I cannot offer any real constructive advice (overseas Paypal accounts and THEIR bank account setups are a bit different anyway) but those of you who complain about eBay being geared too much towards buyer protection and not enough towards seller protection, please remember this:

Only a scant few years ago (and even more so in earlier times) it was very much a one-way street in favor of SELLERS. Just some examples:

- Sellers insisting on leaving feedback ONLY after feedback had been left for them and even pretending buyers had not done their full part of the deal until they left feedback (which is just stone crazy because buyers ALWAYS have done THEIR part of the deal IN FULL once the'y paid up BEFOREHAND as this leaves them only hoping they will receive their goods OK). U.S. sellers were particularly stubborn in this practice. This more or less amounted to the buyers being taken hostage by sellers in the feedback game and in case of justified buyers' complaints left them extremely vulnerable to RETALIATORY feedback.

- Or if I remember that bitch (term's been used here before so that should be fine here too especially since it's an apt description of that character) who - in 2002 or so - tried to pull a fast one on me when I won 2 or 3 of her auctions which said "shipping to the US only". OK so I am from abroad but I had immediately given her an address in Ohio to ship to (which had worked perfectly well with U.S.-only sellers in numerous previous cases). But she flatly refused, calling me names in her mails, accusing me of violating almost any rules to think of etc. And then on top of this she not only refused to accept my payment but even filed a complaint with eBay for NONPAYMENT!!! Howzat for a really rotten way of thinking?? It took me countless mails to get through the automatic mail inbox at eBay to at least get a reply from them that was not some standardized blurb and took care of my particular case. In the end I was cleared and her account was barred but it was a major hassle!

- Not to mention that jerk who took my money for a set of 4 78rpm auctions (and that of many others) but never ever delivered but who was barred way too late (within a few days he had accumulated some 30 negs at the time of those phony sales!!!) but needless to say was never made to pay back - despite Paypal.

Sorry to say this to you who are among the honest sellers, but all in all it seems that with the current practices you are paying the price for numerous incidents such as those above where the buyers were just plainly screwed. I understand you are sore and would be so too if I were in your place but it just goes to show this "eBay rule" door does swing both ways after all and now it just seems to be swinging back.

Best of luck anyway

Edited May 4, 2010 by Big Beat Steve

[ejp626]

I feel for you, Dan. I got screwed when I sold a CD through half.com and it got lost in the mail. They reached right into my Paypal account, even though I could prove I mailed it (but I didn't pay for the delivery confirmation). I decided after that that I just didn't want to deal with being a half.com seller anymore. Just in general, I didn't like how the rules were evolving.

Frankly, I am not crazy about Amazon's new treatment of canceled sales (which I think swing back too much in favor of sellers), but not enough to stop using the site. Maybe I will cull my collection and decide if I have enough rarish CDs to make it worth my time to become an Amazon marketplace seller. Probably not.

[mellowT]

I still can't fathom how you could send her a brand new, but opened product, but she claimed it had been used and tampered with, and she somehow proved it via photo documentation (which I assume was shared with you in this dispute), enough to convince PayPal.

[Dan Gould]

The box was not sealed; my sister-in-law did not have the receipt so I couldn't provide documentation of the purchase. I referred them to the pictures included in the listing which showed that everything was in its place in the interior packaging and in pristine condition.

Her claim amounted to a manufacturing defect which would not be apparent until installation was attempted. For whatever outrageous reason (like, if at all possible, rule in favor of the buyer) they did not accept my argument that the buyer incurs risks when purchasing something new via a third party that was originally purchased from a store that is out of business for the simple fact that new does not guarantee usability and that everyone has purchased something new from a store which does not work and must be replaced. She knew replacement would be difficult if not impossible.

They also ignored the terms of the sale - "as is" and "no refunds". The worst thing is that ebay/paypal will allow these terms to be used but won't enforce them. She knew the terms of the sale going in to it.

And let's keep in mind that my true loss is actually about $80 - her offer was $60, shipping was $11 and she's getting all of it back. I only cleared $50 out of the original $60 due to ebay and paypal fees. So I'm losing $71 on a forced refund when I had already lost $10 of that to fees.

[Brad]

This has probably been already answered but I have sold a lot on ebay and on another forum I belong ebay and paypal (owned by Ebay) gets discussed quite a bit.

Bottom line is that buyers are favored and ebay invariably sides with the buyer, which is why sellers can't leave negative feedback. They cannot pull money out of your bank account so you will wind up with a negative balance, which means that if you do some more sales anything you receive in your paypal account will be netted against the negative amount.

[Dan Gould]

But I can label feedback as "neutral" and tell it like it is, to wit:

Avoid at all costs! Does not understand meaning of "as is" and "no refunds" and refuses to take personal responsibility for her actions and she will screw the next seller she thinks has wronged her regardless of the facts.

Now, I haven't checked what the character limits are so I may have to adjust but I think that says it all, "neutral" feedback or not.

[Big Beat Steve]

It's too long, that's for sure.

Otherwise, is the discussion board on eBay itself still in existence?

I remember reading quite a bit there 6 or 7 years ago, and IIRC topics such as selling practices, buyers tricks etc. to sneak the party concerned out of their proper responsibility were discussed there quite a bit, with lots of pros and cons in all directions. So, Dan, it might perhaps be useful to describe your case there, maybe to get some input on how to proceed, maybe to get ideas on how to really enforce the "as is/no refunds " selling policy (this policy is used often enough so there GOT to be somebody there who has additional input to offer) etc. OTOH, if eBay really does not take any steps to help sellers enforce this "no refunds" policy it just MIGHT be that you will get hell from other sellers who so far have been living on the principle of just frightening buyers into NOT complaining on account of that "as is/no refund" principle and might now start to fear that all this is going to change once buyers catch up to this "new" eBay policy of literally undermining those terms of sale.

Mind you, I don't sell on eBay (for good reason, and your experience reinforces my opinion about this), but I do see both sides, I think.

And yes - I am glad I got most of my key collecting projects covered pretty good and completely (often thanks to past finds on eBay) so do not need to bid there all that often anymore.

[Dan Gould]

Steve,

These are my only sales that I have ever used the "as is" and "no refunds" terms and if I offer LPs in the future I'll generally allow refunds anyway. And I don't know what my options are going forward - I got someone on the phone at Paypal and they pretty much said that the decision is made, there are no appeals, it is what it is.

[GA Russell]

In my current eBay Mosaic auctions I have made two sales. Because I am a new seller (less than 100 (!) positive feedbacks), PayPal is holding the money until I receive the positive feedback from the sale or 21 days, whichever is less. This came as an unpleasant surprise to me.

This means that I have to pay for shipping (which isn't cheap) now, knowing that I will be paid in three weeks.

[Man with the Golden Arm]

In my current eBay Mosaic auctions I have made two sales. Because I am a new seller (less than 100 (!) positive feedbacks), PayPal is holding the money until I receive the positive feedback from the sale or 21 days, whichever is less. This came as an unpleasant surprise to me.

This means that I have to pay for shipping (which isn't cheap) now, knowing that I will be paid in three weeks.

you don't really have to show "positive feedback" to get a payment do you!?

i would imagine that issuing a tracking number and thus showing PayPal proof of delivery via UPS or USPS w/ delivery confirm #s certainly proves that the transaction is complete. god forbid the buyer hates the typeface you scrawl on the shipping box.

[ejp626]

Pretty insane (3 weeks!). Boy I remember when eBay was actually fun. I almost never bother going there anymore and will only sell something with serious value, like a Mosaic. Just too much of a headache nowadays.

At the same time as they come up with these rules that are skewed way too far in favor of buyers, there are still plenty of skeevy sellers on there they never manage to stop. I found an interesting auction for a book (apparently) but when I was cross-referencing the ISBN and so forth, it doesn't appear to have been published and certainly not by the listed publisher. So what exactly are they selling? I'm assuming they aren't crazy enough to sell a box of air. On a whim, I asked for more details about the product, but I imagine it will be a cold day before I hear back.

[Big Beat Steve]

ejp626, though I think I can see both sides (as I've said before) I disagree with your statement that the rules are skewed "too far in favor of buyers". It may look like this in Dan Gould's case (since apparently his view wasn't considered adequately) but again, I feel what is happening now overall is that that the pendulum that for VERY LONG has been swinging OUTRAGEOUSLY in favor of the sellers now just seems to swing back.

Do you realize that the fact alone that the buyer ADVANCES the money before receiving the goods is something that leaves him more exposed to abuse by the seller than the other way round? How many sellers do you think would accept escrow, for example?

And then there are those sellers who overcharge for shipping in the most abominable way possible, often not even stating alleged "handling fees" in their terms but leaving it to the buyer to find out upon receipt he shelled out quite a bit more than what the actual cost of shipping was. Charging priority, shipping economy, etc., and I don't even care to remember those instances where I received an item through surface mail that I had paid AIRMAIL for (which isn't just a matter of sizable differences of cost but also of exceedingly longer delivery times and potentially larger damage risks). But you try to enforce reimbursement of that across the pond ...

As for feedback: How would you feel about that (plainly abusive) practice that has been raging for a VERY long time at ebay, i.e. that sellers bluntly insisted not only on leaving feedback ONLY after feedback had been left for them but also REQUIRED the buyer to leave feedback "as part of the buyer's duty". Which of course is plain b.s. because if the buyer has responded quickly to emails and invoices, given all the shipping info, paid up promptly within the time span required, what else for heaven's sake could he possibly be required to do? He has done EVERYTHING on his side of the deal up to and including paying up. So an HONEST seller should OF COURSE leave feedback once he has received his money in a propmpt manner (which is what such a transaction is all about - raking in the dough, isn't it?), no questions asked, no nothing. Holding the buyer hostage by leaving feedback for him only after the buyer has left feedback is unfair, to put it mildly! Combine this with the above situation of abusive overcharging for shipping (which should be reason enough for a buyer to leave neutral fedback for the seller AT BEST) or other substandard performances on the seller's part in the transaction (shoddy packaging such as LPs floating around in USED pizza boxes with NO additional padding, to name just one bizarre example) and you will be able to imagine how buyers have been at a constant risk of being left RETALIATORY feedback for no objectively valid reason at all.

And these are just a few aspects of an overall policy that could (and did) weigh heavily in favor of the sellers.

This HAS been discussed in public in the past, and there have been reports in the media more than once that eBay seemed to be going on a "sellers first" route (because it is the selling commissions they live on and the buyers at times seemed almost like a necessary evil), and this seems to have gone on on such a large scale that buyers' discontent got larger and larger, up to the point of seriously undermining the reputation of this selling platform at large, or else eBay certainly would not have acted the way they do now, because it clearly took a long time and severe pressure to force their hand to change their policy. (I've been on eBay for close to 10 years now so I've seen a few things come and go, but this change more in favor of buyers did not occur that long ago so you can imagine what it was like for a very long time).

Again, and I am sorry to say this - cases like that of Dan do show something is going wrong in the other direction now (and more equitable solutions ought to be found) but overall it seems to me that some sellers seem to be paying the price for those (not so rare) sellers who followed plainly abusive practices in the past. So if there is anybody to blame, it is your fellow sellers at least as much as the auction platform itself.

Good luck anyway with straightening out unfair practices.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Big Beat Steve

[thelbc]

I have had 2,000 transactions(equal seeler/buyer) on E-bay.

You assummed way too much.

You sell satisfaction guaranteed, period. Buyer pays return shipping.

The item must be returned to you, which should be a saving grace.

Call her bluff, and if she returns it sell it again...for more.

Always use seperate account for paypal...E-bay 101.

You trusted Paypal way too much....!!!

India?? You sold a USA item to INDIA!!!! LMAO

No one on USA Ebay sells to India, Greece, Italy and Spain to name a few.

From these places cash in an envelope is all I take. No sweat if it never shows up.

[Cliff Englewood]

In my current eBay Mosaic auctions I have made two sales. Because I am a new seller (less than 100 (!) positive feedbacks), PayPal is holding the money until I receive the positive feedback from the sale or 21 days, whichever is less. This came as an unpleasant surprise to me.

This means that I have to pay for shipping (which isn't cheap) now, knowing that I will be paid in three weeks.

That is kinda fucked, the more I am learning about the whole Ebay/Paypal thing, and although I have been tempted, the more I'm glad I've never got involved with it.

[AllenLowe]

the other annoying thing about Ebay is that, because of the current system, it seems that EVERY seller has 100% or nearly 100% feedback (because of the mutual standoff - seller can't leave a neg, and the buyer usually leaves a positive just to keep everything on an even keel and because they have such additional power now and can bend things their way) - the result is that some really crappy SELLERS (not Dan, of course, but I am making a different point) look great, and I say this from recent personal experience. So the whole thing sucks, and I do less and less these days on Ebay because I am tired of the crap shoot.

[vajerzy]

I used to sell box sets and other items on Ebay but have been shying away from in because of reasons above. I'd rather sell Mosaics and other stuff on the Board here because I trust people here and I have a higher degree of confidence that the sale will go smoothly. I'd rather get less money for a set with someone here, than take the risk and possibly get the sale messed up with Ebay.

[Jazzmoose]

1. Anyone who bids on an item without knowing exactly what the shipping charges is is a fool.

2. Anyone who was intimidated into not leaving bad feedback by a seller withholding feedback in the former system just needs to realize a couple of things: a buyer's feedback really doesn't matter that much. You can still bid on stuff, even with a few red marks; nothing can stop you. Admittedly, if you're going to leave honest feedback, it was probably better to have seperate accounts for buying and for selling.

3. The integrity of the system has been nil ever since eBay acquired PayPal. I still buy occasionally, but I can't see ever selling again. I guess that's fine with eBay, though; they don't seem to be too interested in the "little sellers" that made them what they are anymore.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Jazzmoose

[Big Beat Steve]

Sorry, Jazzmoose, but I am afraid you either didn't quite understand me or we seem to be talking different languages:

1. Anyone who bids on an item without knowing exactly what the shipping charges is is a fool.

If a seller charges outrageous shippping charges (or if is nebulous about giving shipping quotes beforehand) then you better not bid, sure ...

But if he charges you priority/expedited/special delivery/airmail (or whatever) rates and then ships your items book rate/surface mail etc. then he - just plainly speaking - is a bum out to rip you off for some extra bucks to be made by overcharging on shipping. And this didn't happen THAT rarely if you kept an eye on it.

And this deserves negative feedback.

And if he promises loudly and clearly he will ship "at cost" and then you find out by looking at the envelope he spent way less on shipping than he charged you then this isn't that much better either. At least it's not what I'd consider a fair deal.

2. Anyone who was intimidated into not leaving bad feedback by a seller withholding feedback in the former system just needs to realize a couple of things: a buyer's feedback really doesn't matter that much. You can still bid on stuff, even with a few red marks; nothing can stop you. Admittedly, if you're going to leave honest feedback, it was probably better to have seperate accounts for buying and for selling.

No buyer likes seeing his 100% positive rating undermined for no good reason at all by some unscrupulous seller. This is not a matter of having separate accounts for selling and buying either. The way things used to be it was HIGHEST time this was abolished.

And seeing how things used to be for a very long time at eBay such unscrupulous practices (or other unsavory feedback practices triggered by sellers) must have happened on a very, very large scale, or else eBay never would have bothered changing their rules in the way they did. After all they had turned a deaf ear on many buyers' complaints for quite some time.

3. The integrity of the system has been nil ever since eBay acquired PayPal. I still buy occasionally, but I can't see ever selling again. I guess that's fine with eBay, though; they don't seem to be too interested in the "little sellers" that made them what they are anymore.

I agree that in recent times the site has degenerated more and more into listings by pro or semipro sellers unloading overstock stuff on the buyers who have to wade through dozens of identical Buy It Now new "clearout" items when in search for older/collectible items under the same keywords. It seems to be better among record/CD sellers (by the very nature of these items) but elsewhere ... ho hum ...

Like you, I am glad I don't have to go there very often anymore.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Big Beat Steve

[Dan Gould]

Somehow I must be livin' right. Just a couple of days ago I was thinking about the fact that the post office hadn't delivered the box back to me, as per Paypal's "resolution" and was starting to wonder whether or not I could bring up a new claim based on not having the (worthless) merchandise not returned.

So lo and behold I check my email and here's a message:

PayPal has concluded the investigation of the following claim:

<snip>

The claim has been closed because the buyer has not responded within the specified amount of time. No further action is required of you.

Thank you for your cooperation.

So, all this person had to do was ship the box back and provide proof that she had done so to Paypal ... and she didn't. Did she have an attack of conscience? Did something happen in her personal life and this $70 claim became unimportant? Or maybe she found some old boyfriend who was able to muscle the thing into place and all of a sudden she had a usable plumbing fixture?

I'm almost afraid to ask if she has any rights to reinstate the claim ... but in the meantime, I'm gettin' my money out of Paypal posthaste, and then I think I'm gonna do a little shopping!

BWAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAA