*** Bill Evans ***

[John Tapscott]

On 3/19/2022 at 1:03 PM, Peter Friedman said:

I admit to a bias against lengthy bass solos where the bass player stays primarily in the upper register and seems to want to be a guitar player. My preference is for a big bottom sound for the bass with full round notes that provide a swinging accompaniment.

So this means that Eddie Gomez is not one of my favorite bass players. While I understand that Bill Evans wanted a bass player to engage in a dialog with him, I would have preferred he play far more often with Sam Jones or other bass players in that vein.

In the 1970's, when I was living in Rochester, New York, the Bill Evans Trio with Eddie Gomez and Marty Morell came to town for a week long gig. I spent 2 nights at the club sitting right in front of the band stand. Bill was wonderful, but , for the most part, the long bass solos by Gomez quickly became tedious, and I kept wishing he would play less.

Marty Morell was a decent drummer, but generally added little of interest to the trio. I also liked Philly Joe with Evans, and also thought Larry Bunker and Joe LaBarbera were better than Morell. 

I agree with Peter on this. I'm generally a fan of Evans but I am disappointed that just when the trio starts building up a swinging head of steam, Evans hands it over to Gomez for a lengthy bass solo. Sometimes it happens after just a chorus of piano soloing and it seems to bring the musical intensity way down. Gomez is a highly skilled bass player, but long bass solos...I don't know.  

[JSngry]

DeJohnette worked well with Evans, at least the first time.

[Dub Modal]

When I first started getting into jazz and was exploring trios I enjoyed a lot of Evans albums and subsequently bought a good number of them across labels/lineups. Lately I've been struggling with listening to them, and it's a pretty strong reaction in that I can't finish these albums at all. After 2 or 3 songs it's enough for me and as a result, I've stacked up these Evans titles for a possible cull. Holding off because I've regretted doing that in the past. Definitely possible I could come back to enjoying these but for right now I'm not digging Bill Evans. 

[JSngry]

 

28 minutes ago, Dub Modal said:

.. for right now I'm not digging Bill Evans. 

It turns out that not everybody does!

[Teasing the Korean]

As I've written elsewhere, the piano trio approach grows tiresome for me, and I wish that Evans had done more in different configurations.  When I reach for a Bill Evans these days, I want to hear him with either Miles, Cannonball, Jim Hall, George Russell, Claus Ogerman.  Some trio tracks sprinkled across a various artists playlists work well, but they get tiresome for me on a full album.

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Teasing the Korean

[Peter Friedman]

1 hour ago, Teasing the Korean said:

As I've written elsewhere, the piano trio approach grows tiresome for me, and I wish that Evans had done more in different configurations.  When I reach for a Bill Evans these days, I want to hear him with either Miles, Cannonball, Jim Hall, George Russell, Claus Ogerman.  Some trio tracks sprinkled across a various artists playlists work well, but they get tiresome for me on a full album.

 

My view of the jazz piano trio is very different. I am a huge fan of the piano trio, and enjoy listening to a very large number of pianists in that format. 

To me the piano trio is (usually) far more interesting to me than solo piano albums. Though the caveat here is the generation of the pianist. Pre-bop piano players tend to use their left hands a great deal which makes for a fuller piano sound on solo recordings. So I do enjoy solo recordings by jazz piano players who play in the pre-bop manner.

Most modern jazz piano players rely heavily on the right hand with just minor use of the left hand. That may be why I prefer the trio format for modern jazz pianists, as it fills in the full  bass sound often lacking.

There are of course exceptions.   

[Larry Kart]

48 minutes ago, Peter Friedman said:

My view of the jazz piano trio is very different. I am a huge fan of the piano trio, and enjoy listening to a very large number of pianists in that format. 

To me the piano trio is (usually) far more interesting to me than solo piano albums. Though the caveat here is the generation of the pianist. Pre-bop piano players tend to use their left hands a great deal which makes for a fuller piano sound on solo recordings. So I do enjoy solo recordings by jazz piano players who play in the pre-bop manner.

Most modern jazz piano players rely heavily on the right hand with just minor use of the left hand. That may be why I prefer the trio format for modern jazz pianists, as it fills in the full  bass sound often lacking.

There are of course exceptions.   

Thinking of possible exceptions, I've got a sort of test coming up. Having recently become fond of the late John Hicks in trio format (his "Beyond Exceptions" in particular) and enjoying especially his IMO quite individual fullness of keyboard textures, I ordered three more Hicks albums which should arrive today --- two trio albums and his solo Maybeck recital. We'll see if the Maybeck album retains that fullness of keyboard textures I know from his trio work. I should add that what also and especially intrigues me about  Hicks is how often he ends a semi-climactic phrase or episode with rich, almost cocktail-lounge-like, or maybe Garner-like, multi-noted upper-register flourishes that typically sort of splinter to form new lines. There's a possible kinship to Tyner here, but Hicks' approach is IMO less formulaic harmonically -- e.g. the occasional rich "sweetness" in Hicks that I typed as almost cocktail-lounge-like, though in no way do those gestures sound the least bit trashy; rather they come  across as tokens of ecstatic release. In any case, what a player he was.

[Teasing the Korean]

59 minutes ago, Peter Friedman said:

To me the piano trio is (usually) far more interesting to me than solo piano albums.

Interesting.  I tend to like the solo albums, because of the lack of restrictions placed on the pianist.  I also like piano and bass albums.

My issue with the trio albums is that they offer neither the intimacy or spontaneity of solo piano records nor the range of color variations you would get if a fourth or fifth instrument were added.  

That's just me.  

[EKE BBB]

12 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Interesting.  I tend to like the solo albums, because of the lack of restrictions placed on the pianist.  I also like piano and bass albums.

My issue with the trio albums is that they offer neither the intimacy or spontaneity of solo piano records nor the range of color variations you would get if a fourth or fifth instrument were added.  

That's just me.  

I love solo piano albums; I also love piano trio albums; finally, I love quartet/quintet recordings with horn(s). It all depens on who's playing!

[Teasing the Korean]

7 minutes ago, EKE BBB said:

 It all depens on who's playing!

Well, there's that!

[HutchFan]

1 hour ago, Larry Kart said:

Thinking of possible exceptions, I've got a sort of test coming up. Having recently become fond of the late John Hicks in trio format (his "Beyond Exceptions" in particular) and enjoying especially his IMO quite individual fullness of keyboard textures, I ordered three more Hicks albums which should arrive today --- two trio albums and his solo Maybeck recital. We'll see if the Maybeck album retains that fullness of keyboard textures I know from his trio work. I should add that what also and especially intrigues me about  Hicks is how often he ends a semi-climactic phrase or episode with rich, almost cocktail-lounge-like, or maybe Garner-like, multi-noted upper-register flourishes that typically sort of splinter to form new lines. There's a possible kinship to Tyner here, but Hicks' approach is IMO less formulaic harmonically -- e.g. the occasional rich "sweetness" in Hicks that I typed as almost cocktail-lounge-like, though in no way do those gestures sound the least bit trashy; rather they come  across as tokens of ecstatic release. In any case, what a player he was.

Larry, I completely agree with you re: Hicks.  He was tremendous -- and a wonderful example of a modern "two-hands" player.

Although he was very different from Hicks, I think Roland Hanna was another exception to the right hand focus of many (not all) modern jazz pianists.  At times, Sir Roland had a semi-classical thing going (in terms of his approach) that I've always dug.  It set him apart from his fellow Detroiters.

I'd listen to either of these guys in ANY context. 

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by HutchFan

[Peter Friedman]

6 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

Larry, I completely agree with you re: Hicks.  He was tremendous -- and a wonderful example of a modern "two-hands" player.

Although he was very different from Hicks, I think Roland Hanna was another exception to the right hand focus of many (not all) modern jazz pianists.  At times, Sir Roland had a semi-classical thing going (in terms of his approach) that I've always dug.  It set him apart from his fellow Detroiters.

I'd listen to either of these guys in ANY context. 

 

I am of two minds about Roland Hanna. That classical thing you mentioned can, for me, end with Hanna becoming very non-swinging and I loose interest. Other times he can swing hard and his playing is very appealing to me. It is when he plays solo that I am often less than pleased.

When it comes to Detroit jazz piano players I would list Roland Hanna behind my many favorites such as Barry Harris, Tommy Flanagan, Hank Jones (Pontiac), Kirk Lightsey, and  Hugh Lawson.

[HutchFan]

5 minutes ago, Peter Friedman said:

I am of two minds about Roland Hanna. That classical thing you mentioned can, for me, end with Hanna becoming very non-swinging and I loose interest. Other times he can swing hard and his playing is very appealing to me. It is when he plays solo that I am often less than pleased.

When it comes to Detroit jazz piano players I would list Roland Hanna behind my many favorites such as Barry Harris, Tommy Flanagan, Hank Jones (Pontiac), Kirk Lightsey, and  Hugh Lawson.

I hear you.  It's notable how the thing that prompts you to put Hanna well down your list is precisely the thing that prompts me to put him at the top of mine.  

Just another example: De gustibus non est disputandum.   

 

1 hour ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Interesting.  I tend to like the solo albums, because of the lack of restrictions placed on the pianist.  I also like piano and bass albums.

My issue with the trio albums is that they offer neither the intimacy or spontaneity of solo piano records nor the range of color variations you would get if a fourth or fifth instrument were added.  

That's just me.  

TtK - I think the trio format in jazz is sort of comparable to the string quartet format in classical music.  That is, it's a miniature orchestra.  Everything is stripped down to its barest essentials.  In fact, the limitations in terms of color are part of the appeal of both formats.

Not trying to convince anyone to dig piano trios, much less string quartets!  Just a possible way of thinking about them. 

 

[Teasing the Korean]

17 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

TtK - I think the trio format in jazz is sort of comparable to the string quartet format in classical music.  That is, it's a miniature orchestra.  Everything is stripped down to its barest essentials.  In fact, the limitations in terms of color are part of the appeal of both formats.

Not trying to convince anyone to dig piano trios, much less string quartets!  Just a possible way of thinking about them. 

I get it, and you're right.  It's just that I burned out on piano trio records many years ago, and I've never fully come back to them.  Maybe it will happen one day.

[jazzbo]

I really like the trio format, with drums or guitar. And I think in large part I was initially drawn deeply into these combos because I can play some piano, some bass, some guitar and a lot of drums. So I can play along, either with an instrument or in my own cranium, and I can understand somewhat deeper what is going on than in other combos.

It took me some time to warm up to Bill Evans who I first encountered via his work with Miles. I left his own work alone for quite some time but near the end of the 'eighties I found myself drawn to his solo and trio work strongly. That attraction has not diminished.

[JSngry]

I like a well-triangulated trio of any instrumentation...at least that gets them in the door. But as well triangulated as Evans' post LaFaro trios were...I don't connect. Oh well.

But The 3 Sounds, or the classic Cecil Taylor Units, or even a Louis Armstrong- Earl Hines duet (because don't kid yourself, Earl Hines was really two people), a good trio skillfully triangulated is a very unique truth.

Architecture matters! 

 

[Dub Modal]

Yeah, I dig trios as a whole across various instrumentation combos. I just struggle with Evans these days. Wish I could articulate why but can't at the moment. 

[Peter Friedman]

2 hours ago, HutchFan said:

I hear you.  It's notable how the thing that prompts you to put Hanna well down your list is precisely the thing that prompts me to put him at the top of mine.  

Just another example: De gustibus non est disputandum.   

 

TtK - I think the trio format in jazz is sort of comparable to the string quartet format in classical music.  That is, it's a miniature orchestra.  Everything is stripped down to its barest essentials.  In fact, the limitations in terms of color are part of the appeal of both formats.

Not trying to convince anyone to dig piano trios, much less string quartets!  Just a possible way of thinking about them. 

 

I have loved piano trios since I was a teenager, but my true appreciation of string quartets developed many decades later.

Your point makes good sense to me as perhaps my favorite music other than jazz  are the string quartets of Haydn, Beethoven, Mozart, Mendelssohn, Schubert and others.  

[GA Russell]

7 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

As I've written elsewhere, the piano trio approach grows tiresome for me, and I wish that Evans had done more in different configurations.  When I reach for a Bill Evans these days, I want to hear him with either Miles, Cannonball, Jim Hall, George Russell, Claus Ogerman.  Some trio tracks sprinkled across a various artists playlists work well, but they get tiresome for me on a full album.

 

Fifty years ago, one of my favorite records was his date with Herbie Mann called Nirvana.

https://www.amazon.com/Nirvana-Bill-Evans/dp/B0001K2K8E/

[sgcim]

Bill Evans composed an Octet for Winds when he was studying composition in college. His son Evan emailed me that he was going to try to get it recorded someday.

[Teasing the Korean]

1 hour ago, GA Russell said:

Fifty years ago, one of my favorite records was his date with Herbie Mann called Nirvana.

https://www.amazon.com/Nirvana-Bill-Evans/dp/B0001K2K8E/

This one has eluded me, which is surprising, because Herbie Mann records were everywhere for a long time.  

[Rabshakeh]

1 hour ago, GA Russell said:

Fifty years ago, one of my favorite records was his date with Herbie Mann called Nirvana.

But no longer? 

[GA Russell]

I recommend it to anyone here who has never heard it.  I played it so often when it was new (to me) that I just don't play it very often anymore.

I guess I should pull it out, and give it a spin!

53 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

This one has eluded me, which is surprising, because Herbie Mann records were everywhere for a long time.  

 

45 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

But no longer?