Jazz with Native American Influences

[chitownjazz]

This has probably been discussed before, but I couldn't locate it.

What are some good examples of jazz with Native American influences?

Jim Pepper and Don Cherry immediately come to mind, as does Ray Noble's Indian Suite (though I don't know if this qualifies as a "good example".)

Edited April 18, 2010 by chitownjazz

[bertrand]

Wayne Shorter's 'Sacajawea' has a certain Native American feel.

Bertrand.

[Chas]

The Injuns by Donald Byrd

Daughter Of Cochise by Horace Tapscott

Native Land by Curtis Amy

[kh1958]

Don Pullen's final recording, Sacred Common Ground.

[clifford_thornton]

Anthony Braxton's Ghost Trance Music.

[Chuck Nessa]

[Chuck Nessa]

[jeffcrom]

"Choctaw Blues" from Home by the David Murray Octet (Black Saint)

[danasgoodstuff]

Witchi tai too!

[chitownjazz]

Thanks for the suggestions.

How could I have forgotten "Native Land?" The version on Alto Summit with Phil Woods, Lee Konitz, Leo Wright and Pony Poindexter is really great.

Listening to Jim Pepper's Comin' and Goin' brought the subject up. It's got more than a hint of "guilty pleasure" to it but the primal, sweat lodge intensity wins me over.

Edited April 19, 2010 by chitownjazz

[Hardbopjazz]

On Sonny Rollins' last studio album, the title track "Sonny, Please!" has a Native American influence.

[Cali]

I was told by a prominent jazz musician that Dave Brubeck was half Native American and the unique time signatures of TAKE FIVE and BLUE RONDO A LA TURK, etc. were attributed to his culture. Does anyone else know anything about this?

Edited April 19, 2010 by Cali

[chitownjazz]

Wilber Morris's Afro-Amer. Ind, which appears on Denis Charles's Queen Mary, Wilber Morris's Wilbur Force, and Wilber Morris's Drum String Thing

[ep1str0phy]

My very good friend John-Carlos Perea has been operating in the sphere of what might be considered Native American/American Indian jazz by virtue of 1) just being American Indian and 2) crafting music that overtly amalgamates traditional idioms and modern jazz concepts:

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=18616

His music takes after Jim Pepper (about whom John-Carlos just finished a mammoth dissertation--don't know when it will be out in the ether) in this way, and like the saxman (I've most often played with John-Carlos in situations where he plays bass), J-C leans toward a modal post-Coltrane bent. I can't speak, in any truly informed manner, of what seems to be a very clear visceral and technical relationship with Coltrane modalism and American Indian musics, but I've spent enough time in/with/around Asian American and American Indian-centric ensembles to know that Coltrane's ideas do resonate with many non-Western cultures.

As with anything else, the Asian American diasporic post-jazz scene within which John-Carlos and I, often (but definitely not exclusively), operate has it's own share of venues and "gets." It does feel like it occupies an obscure cultural niche to the extent that it isn't as confontationally weird or image-conscious as the rock/free improv/free thrash scene, not tidy, apolitical, and virtuoso-oriented enough for the mainstream/post-bop jazz scene, and (is) too "inside of" the museum, university, and any variety of ethnically-conscious communities to attract the better part of the young music going public (who maybe comes into it expecting or being apart of the strident self-involvment/individual emphasis of youth culture). The barriers aren't really there by force, but they do seem to be there by some sad default.

[kenny weir]

Wrong kind of indian, but a minor classic nonetheless:

[king ubu]

Just naively asking... how much of the music mentioned here actually has any native American influence, music-wise?

[kh1958]

The Don Pullen recording actually attempts to integrate jazz performers with Native American music performers--on a couple of the tracks he is reasonably successful.

[danasgoodstuff]

Witchi Tai Too is supposedly based on a traditional peyote chant, but I've never heard the putative source so I can't really comment on how close it is...more 'authentic' than "Cheerokee" i'd wager, and the're both great tunes both as basis for improv and in themselves.

[king ubu]

Witchi Tai Too is supposedly based on a traditional peyote chant, but I've never heard the putative source so I can't really comment on how close it is...more 'authentic' than "Cheerokee" i'd wager, and the're both great tunes both as basis for improv and in themselves.

Well, I wasn't doubting it all... just seems that because a tune bears a reference in its title doesn't necessarily mean it's in any kind an examination of any native elements. I guess Jim Pepper is one of the most on-topic musicians here, though honestly I wouldn't know how close he gets to being authentic... but he's authentic Jim Pepper, always, and that's fine enough for me!

[DukeCity]

Last year a trio of Native American jazz musicians here in ABQ put together some performances, calling the group "Red Hot and Red". However, the material was straight ahead jazz with some afro-cuban stuff. I didn't catch any of their performances, so I don't know if there was any apparent Native elements in the music itself.

Read a short article about the group.

[David Ayers]

'Cherokee'? No?

[ep1str0phy]

Witchi Tai Too is supposedly based on a traditional peyote chant, but I've never heard the putative source so I can't really comment on how close it is...more 'authentic' than "Cheerokee" i'd wager, and the're both great tunes both as basis for improv and in themselves.

Well, I wasn't doubting it all... just seems that because a tune bears a reference in its title doesn't necessarily mean it's in any kind an examination of any native elements. I guess Jim Pepper is one of the most on-topic musicians here, though honestly I wouldn't know how close he gets to being authentic... but he's authentic Jim Pepper, always, and that's fine enough for me!

I believe that Witchi Tai To is based on a peyote song. I could ask John-Carlos Perea about this, since I know he's done an exhaustive amount of research figuring this stuff out. (Much of the latter's music is also derived from chants/traditional songs. Structurally, there's a lot of improv; I'm talking mostly about melodic/harmonic source material. In addition to playing in jazz ensembles, he does a lot of work playing cedar flute and/or drum in a more traditional context.)

[randyhersom]

Daughter of Cochise from Sonny Criss - Sonny's Dream. Not sure how authentic.

[randyhersom]

Albert Ayler - Universal Indians

[king ubu]

Witchi Tai Too is supposedly based on a traditional peyote chant, but I've never heard the putative source so I can't really comment on how close it is...more 'authentic' than "Cheerokee" i'd wager, and the're both great tunes both as basis for improv and in themselves.

Well, I wasn't doubting it all... just seems that because a tune bears a reference in its title doesn't necessarily mean it's in any kind an examination of any native elements. I guess Jim Pepper is one of the most on-topic musicians here, though honestly I wouldn't know how close he gets to being authentic... but he's authentic Jim Pepper, always, and that's fine enough for me!

I believe that Witchi Tai To is based on a peyote song. I could ask John-Carlos Perea about this, since I know he's done an exhaustive amount of research figuring this stuff out. (Much of the latter's music is also derived from chants/traditional songs. Structurally, there's a lot of improv; I'm talking mostly about melodic/harmonic source material. In addition to playing in jazz ensembles, he does a lot of work playing cedar flute and/or drum in a more traditional context.)

Interesting, thanks! I'd never doubt Pepper's dedication and conviction - to me, it seems as he was never, ever, bullshitting, a very committed musician, who was serious about his music, even when the music sounded (and still sounds) like a load of good-natured fun.