Santana on [i]A Love Supreme[/i]

[Jim Alfredson]

I'm sorry, but Santana's band kicked serious ass at Woodstock. I think they were great in their heyday, which lasted from 1969 to 1972 for me. Three short years of brilliance. Stuff after that has it's moments, but it goes downhill from there.

[JSngry]

My opinion:

The first two were good, the third one great, CARAVANSERI, BORBOLETTO, and to a lesser extent WELCOME beyond great (LOTUS, having been a Japan-only import for decades, falls outside my real-time chronological experience, but it rates, too, as does the thing w/Alice) and then after that...whatever.

For me, the allure of those albums were never in Santana's guitar playing (although I knew quite a few jazz players in school who loved his tone and were fascinated by his sustain) but in the group gestalt. At their best, that band was greater than the sum of it's parts.

[Noj]

I'm sorry, but Santana's band kicked serious ass at Woodstock...

The drum solo on "Soul Sacrifice" by Michael Shrieve (I think that's his name) is intense! If you haven't seen the film footage, it is great to watch.

[gdogus]

If anyone can tell me even one FUNNY thing Carlos has ever said or done, I'll put him back on the list.

Hmmm...well, I ran across this recently somewhere...

In Ashley Kahn's book A Love Supreme, Carlos Santana says:

"If I did do it [record another version of A Love Supreme], I would do it differently than the way John McLaughlin and myself did it when we just went for it. Now I dream big, man, I don't dream small. I would do it with a symphony, with real African drummers, Brazilian musicians, with Alice Coltrane, [indian sarod master] Ali Akbar Khan, Wayne Shorter, Pharoah Sanders, Herbie [Hancock], McCoy and everyone in tuxedos." (p. 204)

Edited December 9, 2003 by gdogus

[Harold_Z]

No small time thinking there....this guy's a ROCK STAR !

It's about SPECTACLE...not music.

Just to clarify my post - this is a comment on marketing not musicianship. Rock stars are thinking of satisfying the masses and filling stadiums. IF Carlos Santana wants to do ALS, he's going to make it work for his fans. That's not meant as a criticism.

Carlos' playing doesn't bother me at all - I like him. I think he's a good melodic improvisor and I think he brings a jazz attitude to his music in the sense that he is improvising and trying to get off and he has his own sound. If he falls back on his bag of licks at times....well..he's not the only one and a certain amount of that can be attributed to giving his public what it expects.

[jazzbo]

Jim's view on Carlos eerily echoes my own.

I'd be interested to see what he would do with ALS now. (I've never liked the Love, Devotion and Surrender album.) I think that living for decades with Trane's music he would do somthing different and respectful. Ain't nothing sacrosanct about the composition. It certainly could be interpreted by someone else besides Branford and Elveen and Alice. . . .!

[chris olivarez]

Count me as a Santana fan but I'm not real big on the most recent stuff . It's my understanding that a certain amount of the money from Supernatural and Shaman?go towards Carlos's Milagro foundation and if that's indeed the case then it's not all that bad for those two. If Carlos does attempt ALS he should attempt a different spin on it because it's awfully hard to do something that was done so right the first time.

[Leeway]

Well, I personally love the first two Santana LPs, although I admit I don't listen to them often (hell, I don't think there are any LPs or discs I listen to often; there's just too many of the damn things at this point!). I can't say I'm that much on later stuff

I'm sorry, but Santana's band kicked serious ass at Woodstock. I think they were great in their heyday, which lasted from 1969 to 1972 for me. Three short years of brilliance. Stuff after that has it's moments, but it goes downhill from there.

Agreed on both counts. In this, Santana reminds me of Van Morrison. Both got off to a great start, then began a long, slow decline, becoming formulaic, repetitious and stale, with only some occasional flashes of their old abilities.

OK, what about the REAL musical genius in the Santana family?-- Jorge Santana and his classic "Malo" album Actually, I've heard that Jorge went seriously into jazz- is that true? Haven't heard of him in many years.

[chris olivarez]

Last I heard he was working for Carlos in some capacity.

[JSngry]

The "scary" part of the original quote for me wasn't the "redoing" part (hell, once something's out there, it's fair game, for better or worse), but the NATURE of it. It's intriguing, and as a "one-world vision" type thing, I think it's beautiful, but I don't think that Santana has the skills to pulls something like this off on too much more than a touchy-feely, "We are The World, We are The Love Supreme" level. I mean, the type of shit he's talking about, if you want to do that at the same level of intensity and sheer musical "depth" (not to sound condescending, but hopefully y'all know what I mean) as Trane's original, well you're gonna have to have some SERIOUSLY badass theoretical/orchestration/etc chops together, and I don't think that Carlos, God bless him, does. All he has is a vision. But I could be wrong. If I am, I'd like to find out! Anyway, a man with a vision is nothing to be sneered at, one way or the other.

But no matter - the scariest part of the whole thing is the tuxedos. Trane died in 1967. Thirty-six years later, tuxedos continue to survive, but dammit, we're doing our best to fix that.

Think, Carlos, THINK!

[Guy Berger]

Count me in the "Santana fans" group, though I actually prefer the 1st two albums over the third. As far as the fusiony stuff goes, Caravanserai and Lotus are awesome, Welcome a little behind, and the other stuff more average. Borboletta has some awesome music but also its share of crap.

Later material becomes more hit and miss.

Guy

[SEK]

Count me in the "Santana fans" group, though I actually prefer the 1st two albums over the third. As far as the fusiony stuff goes, Caravanserai and Lotus are awesome, Welcome a little behind, and the other stuff more average. Borboletta has some awesome music but also its share of crap.

Later material becomes more hit and miss.

Guy

My thoughts exactly...

[jacman]

Lotus is my favorite live album of all time.

i've seen Santana a dozen or so time over the years and never have been dissapointed. his live shows are amazing.

[BFrank]

I just picked up the re-issue of LDS. I always liked it, actually, and was lucky enough to have seen the tour they did. Just wish I had been aware of who Larry Young was at the time or I would have paid more attention to him.

Anyway, my questions is: Who's the drummer on this? I always assumed that it was Cobham all the way through, but the new (and somewhat flawed) liner notes only discuss Michael Shrieve. He wasn't listed at all on the original release. There's a alt. take of ALS that sounds to me like Shrieve might be on that. It's got a less frenetic and somewhat funkier feel to it.

[7/4]

Jan Hammer? Didn't he also play drums on this album?

[BFrank]

Yep, he's listed to. For some reason I always assumed that he played "incedental" percussion, though.

[7/4]

Yep, he's listed to. For some reason I always assumed that he played "incedental" percussion, though.

I have the original CD issue, I'll give it a spin and listen carefully to the drums.

Mine lists Billy Cobham, Don Alias, Jan Hammer and Mike Shrieve on drums, Armando Peraza on congas.

Edited February 8, 2004 by 7/4

[7/4]

Here's some details from the Pages of Fire:

1. A Love Supreme - (7:48) (J.Coltrane)

2. Naima - (3:12) (J.Coltrane)

3. The Life Divine - (9:23) (J.McLaughlin)

4. Let Us Go into the House of the Lord - (15:43)

(trad., arr. by J.McLaughlin & C.Santana)

5. Meditation - (2:41) (J.McLaughlin)

John McLaughlin - guitar, piano (5.)

Carlos Santana - guitar

Khalid Yasin (Larry Young) - organ

Doug Rauch - bass

Billy Cobham, Don Alias, Jan Hammer, Mike Shrieve - drums

Armando Peraza - congas

Recorded in New York City, October 1972 & March 1973.

Produced by Carlos Santana & John McLaughlin.

------------------- All-Music Guide Album --------------------

Charts : Billboard #014, entered Jul 7 , 1973, on charts 024 weeks

From a time when Jazz charted!

[7/4]

I hear many drummers! Once in a while Cobham jumps out in the mix with a roll. Must have been a terror to mix!

[BFrank]

Since Shrieve is not mentioned on the vinyl, that's why I was wondering if his only appreance was on the alt. take.

[DrJ]

Way late entering this one...so will be brief.

First, I do think Carlos was smoking something when he conceived this "plan" for the reinterpretation of LOVE SUPREME. No reflection on him personally, but that gig just sounds silly.

Second - he quite OFTEN sounds silly - in fact most of the time I can't make head nor tail of what he's talking about.

He was once a great musician, but now a pale former shadow; as a result the double-speak and flightiness is now grating rather than endearingly eccentric.

Santana, sadly, for me stopped being even remotely interesting musically in the late 70's and has yet to regain any of his former momentum - and I've tried, lord knows, to appreciate his later stuff for a long time. Even his once fabulous tone - sorry clem, disagree heartily with you about that - is now thin and faux sounding, heavy on cheesy "FX" rather than created through crafty use of good quality, overdriven hardware.

He peaked with SANTANA III, maintained high quality through mid 70's, and it's been quicksand time ever since.

AFTER WRITING THE ABOVE: I went back and read more details of prior posts. Kind of cool and interesting how much the third Santana album has grown in regard over the years - I'll bet 20 years ago fewer people would have put it on parallel with the first 2 albums, but it's really aged extremely well (and also not suffered from quite as much overplay of key tracks).

How's the new CARAVANSERAI reissue sound? I'm hoping to pick that one up soon...

Edited February 13, 2004 by DrJ

[jazzbo]

I personally feel the peak may have been Barboletta or Illuminations, I really like those. Wish the former were remastered right about next week or so!

The Caravanserai reissue sounds very good indeed.

[RainyDay]

Doesn't a piece of music become "reinvented" every time it is performed? Unless jazz belongs in a museum in which case no one should ever touch it and it should be kept in hermetically sealed display cases, why not turn it inside out?. The worst that can happen is that it will sound awful. It wouldn't mar Coltrane's original work.

I wonder if Coltrane would be so hard on Santana if he were still alive. I thought Coltrane was all about breaking the rules.

[DrJ]

I agree with much of what you say, RainyDay, the spirit of it - but there's also a big difference between a well-conceived reinterpretation of a piece and delusional (hash) pipe dreaming. As Jim alludes to, Santana was once a fine rock musician, but even at his peak there's simply no way that he had the chops or musical sophistication to pull that one off. That's not meant to be snobbish - not a jazz vs. rock thing, but just that not all jazz has the same kind of weight and implications and challenges as LOVE SUPREME.

Also: it is just a fact that when one approaches reinterpreting a piece as powerful and well-known as LOVE SUPREME, one in which the original rendition was so literally earth shaking, that it ups the ante for all future comers even further. That's what Chuck's comments touch on - why not pick something that hasn't been tapped to full (or at least near as full as possible) potential yet and work on that?

As to what Coltrane would have thought - I'm pretty much positive he WOULD have been kinder, outwardly at least, than some of us are - but honestly that's neither here nor there in my view. If I was the composer/original performer I'd probably be more gracious too - nobody wants to diss a fellow musician with his heart in the right place. But in this context, why should we be anything but honest?

[mailman]

Carlos Santana's peak occured just before he recorded his first LP. I could never stand this guy-especially his tone. As for the rest of that early band-had to be the cheesiest sounding organ ever recorded.

It's one thing to deal with a musicians "spirituality" when he's a genius like Trane. Paintings by many of the great european masters have religious themes and the depth of their belief combined with their artistic mastery produces powerful art. But when those same beliefs are given to us by mediocrities at best the result is drivel.