Chord Symbols

[skeith]

Is a C7b5 the same chord as a C7#4? It would seem to be, but I don't know - I see both kinds of notation going on.

[AllenLowe]

it is to me.

Edited March 31, 2010 by AllenLowe

[Jim R]

I've never encountered a "#4". I'm pretty sure I've seen a sus4 written as "+4", though. I wonder if somebody went from +4 to #4...?

[Uncle Skid]

I thought that C7#4 implied lydian dominant, and the chord would just be (in C): C E G Bb?

[AllenLowe]

have I been playing the wrong chord all these years?

I used to have a writing program that, in one song, would only let me write a Cb, instead of a B. It drove the musicians crazy.

[Jim R]

have I been playing the wrong chord all these years?

You mean literally, or is this your poetic way of apologizing for your behavior around here?

I used to have a writing program that, in one song, would only let me write a Cb, instead of a B. It drove the musicians crazy.

That would drive me crazy too. I can't even deal with C# vs Db.

[AllenLowe]

it was at a session with Randy Sandke that we did for Enja - Randy kept saying to me - "Allen, why did you write Cb?" I had to explain that I had no choice. Something to do with enharmonics.

[Teasing the Korean]

Is a C7b5 the same chord as a C7#4? It would seem to be, but I don't know - I see both kinds of notation going on.

I hate to get all technical, but the chord is either a C7b5 or a C7#11. Part of the differentiation is functional, and part of it may be completely arbitrary, even if the latter is never admitted. In most practical situations, you're generally safer using the latter; although depending on how it's used in the context of the tune and the melody note, the former may be more appropriate.

But I've never encountered the #4 designation - that I can recall, at least.

[AllenLowe]

well, it's like the difference between a 6th and a 13th - flat 3rd and sharped 9th -

Randy's the guy I always call with these questions. He's a master.

as a self-taught harmonist I go crazy trying to remember these things.

same thing with scales. Lydian, Meridian, Frigidaire.

Easier just to think in 12 tones. Every note is an interval of some chord.

Strangers in the Night.

Edited April 1, 2010 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

Is a C7b5 the same chord as a C7#4? It would seem to be, but I don't know - I see both kinds of notation going on.

I hate to get all technical, but the chord is either a C7b5 or a C7#11. Part of the differentiation is functional, and part of it may be completely arbitrary, even if the latter is never admitted. In most practical situations, you're generally safer using the latter; although depending on how it's used in the context of the tune and the melody note, the former may be more appropriate.

But I've never encountered the #4 designation - that I can recall, at least.

The C7#11 implies that the 9th is also present in the chord (C E G Bb D F#)...the b5 implies that there is not a regular 5th present in the chord (so the scale would be C D E F Gb A Bb)...the #4 implies that the natural 5th is present (so the scale would be C D E F# G A Bb)...also, a "classically trained" string play would interpret, say, a Gb & a F# slightly differently pitch wise due to overtones & the relative "meaning" of each note to the key center..

But yes, you can have a C7#4 chord - C E F# G Bb. Unless you're really anal theoretically (and some people are...), it's more useful as a specific sound than anything else, but in theory (no pun intended) it does set up a different scale than a C7 #11 or a C7 b5

[thedwork]

I hate to get all technical, but the chord is either a C7b5 or a C7#11. Part of the differentiation is functional, and part of it may be completely arbitrary, even if the latter is never admitted. In most practical situations, you're generally safer using the latter; although depending on how it's used in the context of the tune and the melody note, the former may be more appropriate.

But I've never encountered the #4 designation - that I can recall, at least.

i'd like to preface my little response here by saying that, in the "real world" of playing musicians, none of what will come next matters much (or at all), and essentially never comes up.

i've also never encountered "#4." in my experience it's always been notated as "#11." and the main technical/theoretical difference that is inherent in using/naming a chord #11 vs. b5, as i see it, would be this: if you choose #4/#11, you're basically saying there's no natural 4th in the chord/harmony. whereas if you choose b5, you're basically saying there's no natural 5th in the chord/harmony. both of these choices may, or may not, imply other scalar/harmonic aspects depending on function, form, melody, blah blah blah yada yada yada on and on and on and on.

in pretty much any case where any of this stuff might actually matter, a simple spoken sentence or two from the composer to the players will be sufficient to clear up any issue. or, of course, the obvious solution is to simply write out a specific voicing and be done with it.

[JSngry]

if you choose #4/#11, you're basically saying there's no natural 4th in the chord/harmony.

...except that a 4th and an 11th are, technically, different intervals. You could have a Csus 9 (#11) - C E F G Bb D F# (with an interval of a minor 9th between the F & the F#). Why you would, I don't know, other than as a highly specific sound, but still...the possibility exists, is "allowed for".

very anal after a point, all this is, and the only reason I've learned it is that they told me I should know the rules before I broke them, and that was a compromise between totally making up my own rules not really knowing anything...

[skeith]

Guys

Thanks - I think? Those of you who say you have never seen the 7#4 chord (and no I do not mean the maj7#4 chord) - don't use Aebersold playalong cds or books. Aebersold uses this chord designation constantly(or maybe it is +4), but I see others referencing 7b5 - my guess is that it's the same chord. I am not really asking what scale I should be playing - I really just want to know the what chord I should play under a soloist.

Edited April 1, 2010 by skeith

[Jim R]

Guys

Thanks - I think? Those of you who say you have never seen the 7#4 chord (and no I do not mean the maj7#4 chord) - don't use Aebersold playalong cds or books.

Correct (I've never seen a "maj7#4" either).

Aebersold uses this chord designation constantly (or maybe it is +4)...

Which is it? Not that the answer will necessarily be clear either way, but it seems like we should at least clarify that.

...but I see others referencing 7b5

I don't follow this. I thought you were asking about a general tendency by Aebersold to use "(X)7#4", which you (understandably) found confusing. I don't understand what "others referencing 7b5" refers to. Are you comparing another sheet for a particular song to Aebersold's, wherein the other sheet uses a 7b5 in the same spot where Aebersold indicated 7#4?

Edit: Along these same lines... another question might be: doesn't Aebersold use "7b5" also, on occasion?

Edited April 1, 2010 by Jim R

[Free For All]

I've seen both b5 and #4, but I use the #4 designation because it's the fourth that's altered, not the fifth (like in a lydian scale). I also use the #11 designation- to me that implies voicing the chord with both the fifth and the raised fourth.

The + has been used to indicate both "add" and "raised", and due to this confusion I don't use it at all (I use # or the word "add"). I also enclose the chord alterations in parentheses to avoid confusion, as in Db9 vs. D(b9). Without the enclosure, some might interpret that to be a Db chord.

Unfortunately there is not much consistency in jazz chord nomenclature. My choices are based on what I consider to be common practice in my circles of experience.

[thedwork]

...my guess is that it's the same chord. I am not really asking what scale I should be playing - I really just want to know the what chord I should play under a soloist.

straight dominant 7th, add b5 if you feel it, and generally natural 9 & 13 if you feel it as well. enjoy...

[coreymwamba]

Is a C7b5 the same chord as a C7#4? It would seem to be, but I don't know - I see both kinds of notation going on.

From a purely descriptive harmony basis - no, probably not

C^7(♭5) = c e f♯(= g♭) b♭

C^7(♯4) = c e f♯ g b♭ which I see as distinct from C^7(♯11) = c e g b♭ f♯

but from that weird mangle of functional and descriptive harmony perspective - i.e. chord/scale relationships, then I suspect yes, in which case both would be "spelled" c e f♯ b♭.

Edited April 2, 2010 by coreymwamba

[Big Wheel]

As for which version of the chord you should play, it totally depends on the context. If the chord is functioning as a II7 chord (which often resolves to a ii7 chord a la bars 4-5 of "Take the A Train), then it's fine to use a version with the natural 5th in it. If the chord functions more as a V7 chord or an altered dominant, you might not want to play the natural 5th and instead leave things more ambiguous with C E F# Bb. Obviously the melody matters as well - if you see C7b5 notated and the melody emphasizes the +5/b13, then you probably want to stay away from putting a G natural in the voicing. (Assuming you're trying to avoid strong dissonances here.)

Edit to say, in the Aebersold books C7+4 always means Lydian dominant and I think Cmaj7+4 (I can't type a triangle here the way Aebersold does for major 7th chords) always means Lydian. I think he even puts this explicitly in writing at some point in most of the books. So if you see a C7+4 in that context you can almost always voice it as a C13#11 (C E G Bb D F# A). Somewhere in the books Aebersold explains that all his chord symbols are simplified for easier reading but actually always translate to specific scales, any of whose extensions can be used in the voicing. To Aebersold, a C7b9 ALWAYS implies a diminished scale (C7 b9 #9 #11 natural 5th and 13th) and a C7+9 ALWAYS implies a diminished/whole-tone scale (C7 b9 #9 #11 b13 with no natural 5th). Obviously in the real world when playing standards, you can take broad liberties and don't have to hold to all the extensions Aebersold specifies.

Edited April 2, 2010 by Big Wheel

[AllenLowe]

and people wonder why jazz musicians don't make any money......

[skeith]

Thanks guys for all the comments.

to get to the specifics, I yanked out the Aebersold vol 44 book which has "there will never be another you" and the one section is Db7+4 Eb C- F7+4 ... and the confusion came because a guitar chord book I was using shows you how to play the 7b5 chord, but no 7+4 chord. I think they are the same.

[Shrdlu]

It is the same chord, Skeith: C, E, Gb, Bb, but the # is usually written as a +.

Violinists, and some other players, maintain that "enharmonic" notes, in this case Gb/F#, are slightly different, which is technically true, but I have always ignored this, except perhaps subconciously.

This is an issue with the harpsichord, which is tuned especially for each key that is about to be used. (On a TV show, the late Yehudi Menuhin demonstated this, by tuning it to C and then playing something in Ab. It sounded even worse than that instrument already does to my ears. "As sour as a lemon", in Yehudi's words.) The modern piano, the "Well Tempered Klavier", has its notes tuned to a compromise pitch, so that it can be played in all keys without the need for individual tuning. This would apply to just about all keyboards, of course.

We do vary the pitch on a blues, on instruments such as woodwind, where, for example, the minor third (Eb if you are playing in C) is played up to a quarter tone sharp by lipping it. Yusef Lateef plays a spectacular example of this on oboe on the "Jazz Around The World" album (Impulse, sadly not reissued on a U.S. CD).

[jazz1972]

Dont know if this is the right place to ask but just want to know if someone can point me in the right direction to get on the jazz path...I have a pretty good understanding of a lot chords and just want to know what scales i could start practicing to start understanding a jazz feel..

Thanks..

[BruceW]

and people wonder why jazz musicians don't make any money......

While I find all of the answers understandable, this statement above probably says it all.

[Shrdlu]

Dont know if this is the right place to ask but just want to know if someone can point me in the right direction to get on the jazz path...I have a pretty good understanding of a lot chords and just want to know what scales i could start practicing to start understanding a jazz feel..

Thanks..

Hi, and welcome to the board, Jazz1972!

I would recommend listening to a lot of recordings, going to live performances, hanging out with musicians, and sitting in with them where possible. Recordings are your best bet, because there isn't much live jazz anymore.

You will pick it all up. Above all, you need a sound in your head. If you have that, you will play it. A jazz feel is something that comes from inside and from what you hear other guys play. You will learn various jazz licks that you can synthesise into your own style.

You didn't say which instruments you play, but it sounds like you might be a pianist.

As for scales, the vast majority of jazz is in the regular major and minor scales.

Chord voicings on the piano can be learned by listening to such top guys as McCoy Tyner, Bill Evans, Herbie Hancock and so on. I assume from what you have said that you know what chords are available: in C, you have C, C7, C9, C11, C13 and variations such as C7 - 5 etc. Then, the chords can be inverted, e.g. C7 can be played with G, Bb, C, E in that order, both for convenience of fingering, and to obtain a different sound.

Hope that helps.