New Miles?

[medjuck]

Just got this announcement from CD Universe:

Miles Davis

Live In Rome & Copenhagen 1969

Digitally remastered collection of live tunes from the Jazz icon. Contains the Rome and Copenhagen performances by the 1969 Miles Davis Quintet with Wayne Shorter, Chick Corea, Dave Holland and Jack DeJohnette. This band toured Europe from October 26 to November 9, 1969. In his autobiography, Miles would state that this group was really a bad motherfucker! 15 tracks. Gambit. 2010.

Releases March 2

Has this "lost quintet" cd been available before? Anyone have it and recommend it?

[jazzbo]

This is of course a bootleg, not sanctioned by the Miles Davis estate.

The material has been circulating among collectors for many years. Half a decade ago it was circulated as part of a 12 cd tree of recordings of this tour.

These are great shows in decent sound.

[djcavanagh]

I think that this was also released as a dvd, which is slightly more interesting, although equally unauthorised. It doesn't look to be available from amazon at the moment however.

[GA Russell]

  On 2/24/2010 at 8:09 PM, jazzbo said:

This is of course a bootleg, not sanctioned by the Miles Davis estate.

I confess to having second thoughts on the current state of copyright law.

I am active at mobileread.com, which was recommended to me by clave/seeline. It is devoted to eBooks and eBook readers. There is always plenty of discussion about copyright laws.

I have no objection whatever to an artist (whether author or musician) making all the money he can from his work (whether book or recording). I have always felt that it is immoral to violate copyright for one's own personal enjoyment, depriving the artist of his compensation.

However, once the artist is dead, it is now not clear to me that his heirs have any moral claim to deprive the public of the art. I am not a believer in, as the lawyers say, the hand ruling from the grave.

In this case, I assume that Miles did not authorize the recording of these public performances. But they were made anyway, to no detriment to Miles. Now that he is dead, I see no reason why the public should not have the opportunity to hear and enjoy (or not) the art.

[jazzbo]

We are not under the rule of moral law. Which may be a good thing!

I'm not arguing with you, and I may even agree with you. NO, not quite. I think the heirs should have some control. The Miles Davis estate made very strong moves against these sort of things in the nineties and I'm actually surprised that over the last few years we've seen these sort of things become distributed in the US again.

Edited February 25, 2010 by jazzbo

[brownie]

Recordings of the majority of these European concerts were part of the contracts for musicians appearances. Most of them were legally broadcast.

As a citizen of a country which is a member of the European Union where the copyright limit is 50 years, I do not have any second thoughts about acquiring these recordings.

Another recent thread about the Lost Quintet.

[jazzbo]

Right, but they're likely NOT legitimate in the USA. Kindof sucks. They're becoming more available though. So perhaps the estate has begun to feel differently, or simply won't spend the money to intimidate vendors etc.

Of course my perception of the legal aspects may be totally wrong. . . I'd appreciate correction.

Edited February 25, 2010 by jazzbo

[yul]

Why wouldn't the estate make money out of this all? They might as well let an honourable company (e.g. Mosaic) produce a decent boxed set with liner notes etc...

[jazzbo]

I have no idea. But they're not getting any money out of Gambit.

[A Lark Ascending]

I don't have any recordings of the 'Lost Quintet' but am intrigued.

I understand we are in 'dubious provenance' territory here. What would you say is a good, reasonably well recorded (I find flutter and wow distracting, whatever the quality of the performance), reasonably representative recording?

[Rooster_Ties]

There has been one 'legit' release of material by this band, on Japanese Sony...

1969 Miles - Festiva de Juan Pins

Turns up, now and again, used. Going rate probably ought to be about $20, maybe as much as $25.

[jeffcrom]

  On 2/25/2010 at 5:57 PM, Bev Stapleton said:

I don't have any recordings of the 'Lost Quintet' but am intrigued.

I understand we are in 'dubious provenance' territory here. What would you say is a good, reasonably well recorded (I find flutter and wow distracting, whatever the quality of the performance), reasonably representative recording?

I like this one:

although it might prove difficult to find and, as you said, it's probably of dubious provenance. (Although, FWIW, the "official" Miles website includes this in the discography page.) It's Paraphernalia, on the JMY label - a well-recorded Paris concert from November 3, 1969.

Edited February 26, 2010 by jeffcrom

[A Lark Ascending]

Thanks Jeff and Rooser. Both seem well out-of-print.

I'd be interested to hear reactions to these 'new' releases.

[medjuck]

I just realized I have at least part of this on a MOON CD called Double Image. It claims to be Miles in Paris but Peter Losin says it's from

Rome, October 27, 1969.

[brownie]

  On 2/26/2010 at 12:43 AM, jeffcrom said:

  On 2/25/2010 at 5:57 PM, Bev Stapleton said:

I don't have any recordings of the 'Lost Quintet' but am intrigued.

I understand we are in 'dubious provenance' territory here. What would you say is a good, reasonably well recorded (I find flutter and wow distracting, whatever the quality of the performance), reasonably representative recording?

I like this one:

although it might prove difficult to find and, as you said, it's probably of dubious provenance. (Although, FWIW, the "official" Miles website includes this in the discography page.) It's Paraphernalia, on the JMY label - a well-recorded Paris concert from November 3, 1969.

I have that CD too! The concert was good (I was there!) but I was most impressed by the Juan les Pins/Antibes concert from July. The one that came out on Sony/Japan. The sound on that one is better than the Italian boot.

[JSngry]

Don't know if it's been booted yet, but there's a concert by that band where they didn't have an electric piano on hand (or if they did, it was busted), and Chick has to play acoustic for the set.

Talk about driving home why the electricity was not only an inevitable, but also a necessary evolution for this particular music, there it is.

[brownie]

Best of luck if anybody wants to deal with the Miles Davis estate

[king ubu]

Just in case... 1969 has not yet been quite 50 years ago, so these are boots even here, as usually - to my knowledge - the radio stations just had the rights to broadcast these concerts ONCE.

There were the INA/Esoldun CDs 20 years ago that originated from the radio vaults in France, but they had to be pulled and are to be considered bootlegs just because of that. I assume more or less the same applies to the "Pour ceux qui aiment le jazz" / Trema / now mostly LaserLight releases, and also to some of Dragon's radio vault releases (Miles, Rollins, Blakey...). I don't know if any particular releases have been legally cleared though, I'm just guessing...

[medjuck]

BTW I jsut noticed in the Losin discography that the Copenhagen concert was broadcast on tv and there are boot DVDs around.

[jazzbo]

  On 2/27/2010 at 4:10 PM, king ubu said:

Just in case... 1969 has not yet been quite 50 years ago, so these are boots even here, as usually - to my knowledge - the radio stations just had the rights to broadcast these concerts ONCE.

There were the INA/Esoldun CDs 20 years ago that originated from the radio vaults in France, but they had to be pulled and are to be considered bootlegs just because of that. I assume more or less the same applies to the "Pour ceux qui aiment le jazz" / Trema / now mostly LaserLight releases, and also to some of Dragon's radio vault releases (Miles, Rollins, Blakey...). I don't know if any particular releases have been legally cleared though, I'm just guessing...

I'm pretty sure the Dragon Miles four cd set has been cleared and made legitimate; back in the mid-nineties when all the Miles boots were bing pulled from the shelves and not able to be reordered that one (and in its DIW form as well) was always around and remains available.

[Jazzjet]

  On 2/26/2010 at 9:11 PM, Bev Stapleton said:

Thanks Jeff and Rooser. Both seem well out-of-print.

I'd be interested to hear reactions to these 'new' releases.

There was an excellent Rotterdam concert ( November 9, 1969 ) rebroadcast by the BBC in 2006, the 80th anniversary of Miles's birth. Like most Miles fans I recorded this. Not sure whether this counts as a bootleg or whatever.

[ghost of miles]

  On 2/25/2010 at 3:41 PM, yul said:

Why wouldn't the estate make money out of this all? They might as well let an honourable company (e.g. Mosaic) produce a decent boxed set with liner notes etc...

Great idea--would seem like a natural for Mosaic, but I'd imagine difficult estate or other issues have precluded, or would preclude, it ever happening. Has anybody here ever contacted Mosaic about a possible "Lost Quintet" set?

[brownie]

  On 2/27/2010 at 7:31 PM, jazzbo said:

  On 2/27/2010 at 4:10 PM, king ubu said:

Just in case... 1969 has not yet been quite 50 years ago, so these are boots even here, as usually - to my knowledge - the radio stations just had the rights to broadcast these concerts ONCE.

There were the INA/Esoldun CDs 20 years ago that originated from the radio vaults in France, but they had to be pulled and are to be considered bootlegs just because of that. I assume more or less the same applies to the "Pour ceux qui aiment le jazz" / Trema / now mostly LaserLight releases, and also to some of Dragon's radio vault releases (Miles, Rollins, Blakey...). I don't know if any particular releases have been legally cleared though, I'm just guessing...

I'm pretty sure the Dragon Miles four cd set has been cleared and made legitimate; back in the mid-nineties when all the Miles boots were bing pulled from the shelves and not able to be reordered that one (and in its DIW form as well) was always around and remains available.

Same for the Europe 1 concerts releases on Trema. All legitimate.

Which was not the case for the Esoldun CDs. Their only connection with the government-owned organization was that the music was 'borrowed' from their vaults.

[bertrand]

At least they put the tapes back when they were done.

Bertrand.

[king ubu]

  On 2/28/2010 at 6:32 AM, brownie said:

  On 2/27/2010 at 7:31 PM, jazzbo said:

  On 2/27/2010 at 4:10 PM, king ubu said:

Just in case... 1969 has not yet been quite 50 years ago, so these are boots even here, as usually - to my knowledge - the radio stations just had the rights to broadcast these concerts ONCE.

There were the INA/Esoldun CDs 20 years ago that originated from the radio vaults in France, but they had to be pulled and are to be considered bootlegs just because of that. I assume more or less the same applies to the "Pour ceux qui aiment le jazz" / Trema / now mostly LaserLight releases, and also to some of Dragon's radio vault releases (Miles, Rollins, Blakey...). I don't know if any particular releases have been legally cleared though, I'm just guessing...

I'm pretty sure the Dragon Miles four cd set has been cleared and made legitimate; back in the mid-nineties when all the Miles boots were bing pulled from the shelves and not able to be reordered that one (and in its DIW form as well) was always around and remains available.

Same for the Europe 1 concerts releases on Trema. All legitimate.

Which was not the case for the Esoldun CDs. Their only connection with the government-owned organization was that the music was 'borrowed' from their vaults.

That's good to know for both sets!

But what about the LaserLight versions of the Trema discs?

It seems back in their early days, LaserLight did some legit stuff (like three volumes of Jazz in Baden-Baden discs featuring Oscar Pettiford, Donald Byrd and many others), but nowadays they look like a blatant rip-off, too...