Pacific Jazz question - one for James Harrod most likely

[romualdo]

I've copied extracts from the Lord Discography, stating that there are two versions of Bones For Zoot, one from 54 with Annie Ross vocal (sextet) and another from 59 (Sims/Freeman Quintet).

The 54 "version" was made at the end of a Clifford Brown Session sans CB (?). The discography also claims that the two versions were on similar LP's (PJ 3, ST 20139). I strongly suspect that

there is only one version (but which one?). I used to own the Clifford Brown LP ST 20139 but don't remember which version was on that LP) & I've never owned the US version of AR's A Gassser

(have a TOCJ version without the extra tracks) - what version is on the CD?? Is there actually a vocal version?

Annie Ross With Sextet:

Annie Ross (vcl) acc by Stu Williamson (tp) Zoot Sims (ts) Bob Gordon (bar) Russ Freeman (p) Carson Smith (b) Shelly Manne (d)

Los Angeles, August 13, 1954

Bones for Zoot Pacific Jazz PJ3, PJ19, LN10126, World Pacific ST20139, Affinity (E)AFF129

Note: Other titles by Clifford Brown.

Zoot Sims-Russ Freeman Quintet:

Zoot Sims (ts) Russ Freeman (p) Billy Bean (g-1) Jim Hall (g-2) Monty Budwig (b) Mel Lewis (d)

Los Angeles, March, 1959

You're driving me crazy (1) Jazz West Coast JWC(ST)511, ST1031, Vogue (E)LAE12235, Pacific Jazz PJ20

Brushes (2) World Pacific WP1261, Jazz West Coast JWC(ST)1022 Vogue (E)LAE12227, Pacific Jazz PJ20

Funky old blues (1) Pacific Jazz PJ20, Jazz West Coast JWC(ST)512, ST1021, Vogue (E)LAE12224, LAE12227

Bones for Zoot (2) Pacific Jazz PJ3, PJ20139, Fontana (E)FJL123,(Eu)JCL683.270

First 3 titles also on Vogue (E)LAE12309, EMI Pacific Jazz (Jap)LLR-88035, GXF-3110, PJ-0020, TOCJ-5426 [CD].

All above titles also on Pacific Jazz CDP7-46854-2 [CD] titled "Annie Ross - A gasser !"; see Annie Ross, February-March 1959 for rest of CD.

[brownie]

I am not really sure there are two versions of 'Bones for Zoot' even if the current online Lord Discography list the two versions of 'Bones for Zoot'. Neither includes a vocal by Annie Ross.

There is a Japanese CD reissue of 'A Gasser' - with bonus tracks - that has an instrumental 'Bones for Zoot'.

[Jim R]

I have the original 10" LP, PJ19 (Clifford Brown Ensemble), which includes the tune "Bones For Jones", but does not include "Bones For Zoot". I see that more than one online discography has made this error (listing it as having been on PJ19), but I wouldn't have expected a serious discographer like Lord to have made the same error.

The song appeared on the original expanded 12" reissues of PJ19... PJ1214 (1956) (corrected error, see below for details) and PJ3 (1960), and also on PJS20139 (1968 ?).

According to the Lord data you posted (where exactly did you get it?), both a 1954 AND a 1959 recording of the song appears on the 20139 LP release, which makes absolutely no sense at all. Maybe somebody else with a more reliable discographical source can clear this up completely.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Jim R

[romualdo]

According to the Lord data you posted (where exactly did you get it?)

The Source I am using is the Lord Discography, Version 8.0 (I have the disc)

Maybe somebody else with a more reliable discographical source can clear this up completely.

My "Main Man" when it comes to sorting out Pacific Jazz problems is James Harrod - he's in the process of writing a text on the label (including discography).

Hopefully he'll see this thread

[Ken Dryden]

Lord's Discography is hardly immune to errors, as he not only doesn't have physical access to every record or CD, but he duplicates errors on released recordings as well as inserting some typos of his own.

For example, I acquired CDRs of all of the unissued music remaining from Jaki Byard's The Last From Lennie's session so I was able to not only correct song titles but to fill out what exactly remained in the can. While I shared that information with him, I have found it too time consuming to provide further updates to him without any incentives.

[mikeweil]

According to the Lord data you posted (where exactly did you get it?), both a 1954 AND a 1959 recording of the song appears on the 20139 LP release, which makes absolutely no sense at all.  Maybe somebody else with a more reliable discographical source can clear this up completely.

1959 may be the release date of one of the later issues with that track - I doubt there was a second recording. Michael Cuscuna would have tried to find it if is mentioned in the more reliable sources. I believe all available takes are on the Annie Ross CD. Bones For Zoot only made it to the 12" LP of the Clifford sessions because the playing time - 26 minutes - was much too short even for Pacific Jazz standards. Richard Bock chose that track as it shares some of the personnel. That's it. 

Lord's Discography is hardly immune to errors, as he not only doesn't have physical access to every record or CD, but he duplicates errors on released recordings as well as inserting some typos of his own.

And he duplicated discographical errors from other, older discographies - while researching the Cal Tjader disco I found some cases in point - you can draw a line from Jepsen or Rust to Bruyninckx and Lord.

[brownie]

From an Amazon.com reader review of the Pacific Jazz CD reissue of Annie Ross' 'A Gasser' with the added bonus tracks:

It appears that tracks Bones for Zoot and Brushes are the same on my Pacific Jazz lable are the same. Was this ment to be? I can find nothing that will support Zoot's Bones for Zoot, it's not listed in the All Music Guide.

Should be easy to verify by anyone who has this CD (I don't have it).

[Jim R]

According to the Lord data you posted (where exactly did you get it?), both a 1954 AND a 1959 recording of the song appears on the 20139 LP release, which makes absolutely no sense at all.  Maybe somebody else with a more reliable discographical source can clear this up completely.

1959 may be the release date of one of the later issues with that track - I doubt there was a second recording. Michael Cuscuna would have tried to find it if is mentioned in the more reliable sources. I believe all available takes are on the Annie Ross CD. Bones For Zoot only made it to the 12" LP of the Clifford sessions because the playing time - 26 minutes - was much too short even for Pacific Jazz standards. Richard Bock chose that track as it shares some of the personnel. That's it.

I understand and agree with all of that. It's just glaring to me that a discographer (Lord) whose name is often dropped around here as a good source of discographical information would be this careless. Even if he was working from bad info, it's clear that there are errors there when you look closely. Pretty lazy work.

[Jim R]

From an Amazon.com reader review of the Pacific Jazz CD reissue of Annie Ross' 'A Gasser' with the added bonus tracks:

It appears that tracks Bones for Zoot and Brushes are the same on my Pacific Jazz lable are the same. Was this ment to be? I can find nothing that will support Zoot's Bones for Zoot, it's not listed in the All Music Guide.

Should be easy to verify by anyone who has this CD (I don't have it).

Well, I found a copy of this, and was just checking it out. First of all, Cuscuna says this in the notes:

"With Jim Hall present, there is a superb "Bones For Zoot" that was put on the 12" lp on Pacific Jazz by Clifford Brown without proper personnel credit or recording data... ...and 'Brushes' was an aptly named feature for the great and tasteful Mel Lewis"

It's also stated on the booklet that this recording of "Bones For Zoot" first appeared on PJ3 (the second 12" reissue of Brown's "Jazz Immortal", which came out in 1960). As I said above, some version of "Bones For Zoot" also appeared (according to some sources) on PJ1214- the original 1956 12" release of "Jazz Immortal". So, that might conflict with the info Cuscuna presents in this Ross CD release. Maybe somebody here has PJ1214, or can locate a scan of the back cover...? (error corrected; see below)

On this Ross CD, the running time for "Bones For Zoot" is 4:24, while "Brushes" is 5:40, so they're not identical recordings, however they're basically two takes of the exact same blues exercise. The main difference seems to be a much longer drum solo on the latter. The personnel listed for these tracks on the CD is the same as the 1959 data listed above by Lord. Annie Ross did not participate.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Jim R

[brownie]

Jim, thanks for clarifying this.

I have 'Brushes' on the Zoot Sims/Choice PacificJazz LP exact replica that came out in Japan (LLR-88035).

The liner notes from the original issue gives 'Brushes' a running time of 6:30 and the Japanese liner notes insert indicate 5:40 and it is actually 5:40!

I also have 'Bones for Zoot' on the Clifford Brown Immortal PacificJazz LP replica from Japan via Toshiba (JR-8057).

It is indeed 'Brushes' edited down to 4:21.

This album has the liner notes in japanese on the back as was the custom back in the '70s in Japan. Can't make anything out of those notes.

Of course, no Clifford Brown is to be heard on this track

Edited February 25, 2010 by brownie

[romualdo]

Thanks for all the help

to summarise, it appears that

There is only one version of "Bones for Zoot" (5:40 - recorded March 59 & released on Jazz Immortal - PJ 3, ST 20139 & possibly PJ 1214 - waiting on this one)

& is an edited version (or possibly alternate take) of "Brushes" (4:21 - released on PJ 20 - Zoot Sims Choice).

An edited version appears more likely knowing Richard Bock's history of "tweaking" the PJ tape stash over the years.

Thanks for all the help

to summarise, it appears that

There is only one version of "Bones for Zoot" (5:40 - recorded March 59 & released on Jazz Immortal - PJ 3, ST 20139 & possibly PJ 1214 - waiting on this one)

& is an edited version (or possibly alternate take) of "Brushes" (4:21 - released on PJ 20 - Zoot Sims Choice).

An edited version appears more likely knowing Richard Bock's history of "tweaking" the PJ tape stash over the years.

Sorry but I switched the timings - Bones for Zoot should be 4:21 & Brushes 5:40

[Jim R]

Jim, thanks for clarifying this.

I have 'Brushes' on the Zoot Sims/Choice PacificJazz LP exact replica that came out in Japan (LLR-88035).

The liner notes from the original issue gives 'Brushes' a running time of 6:30 and the Japanese liner notes insert indicate 5:40 and it is actually 5:40!

I also have 'Bones for Zoot' on the Clifford Brown Immortal PacificJazz LP replica from Japan via Toshiba (JR-8057).

It is indeed 'Brushes' edited down to 4:21.

Actually, no. They are both the same blues exercise with almost the same arrangement, but they are separate takes.

Of course, if there was a "Bones For Zoot" on PJ 1214, it would have to have been recorded earlier than the one that was released on PJ 3 (the 1959 recording on this Ross CD). That seems unlikely, but I suppose it's possible. (error corrected; see below)

Edited March 1, 2010 by Jim R

[Jim R]

Well, after a little more research, I can add a bit more info to this puzzle. The information I had (and posted above) with regard to PJ1214 appears to have been incorrect. The LP price guide that I have (generally an excellent source for basic LP data), as well as an extensive online Pacific Jazz labelography (here: http://www.bsnpubs.com/la/worldpacific/pacificjazz.html ) lists PJ3 (1960) as a "reissue" of PJ1214. This is only partly accurate. PJ1214 was not (as listed in my LP guide) titled Clifford Brown / "Jazz Immortal". Although it contained 5 tracks from the 1954 (PJ19) session, it also contained a Bob Gordon quintet session (taking up all of side 1). The album was titled "Arranged By Montrose". Not only that, but the PJ labelography I linked above was incorrect concerning the track listings. "Bones For Zoot" was NOT on PJ1214.

[JamesAHarrod]

Just noticed this thread yesterday and had to bone up on these recordings before making a reply.

"Bones For Jones" and "Brushes" are separate takes of the same tune. Russ Freeman's opening statement is slightly different on each take. I suspect that "Bones For Jones" was originally a longer take that Bock edited eliminating the longer solo by Mel Lewis.

The confusion ensued when Bock included "Bones For Jones" on the PJ-3 reissue of the Clifford Brown sessions without clarifying the different personnel and recording date.

The Lord entries do need some modification, another rainy day project.

Jim

[Jim R]

Just noticed this thread yesterday and had to bone up on these recordings before making a reply.

"Bones For Jones" and "Brushes" are separate takes of the same tune. Russ Freeman's opening statement is slightly different on each take. I suspect that "Bones For Jones" was originally a longer take that Bock edited eliminating the longer solo by Mel Lewis.

The confusion ensued when Bock included "Bones For Jones" on the PJ-3 reissue of the Clifford Brown sessions without clarifying the different personnel and recording date.

The Lord entries do need some modification, another rainy day project.

Jim

Actually... I think you're still confused. "Bones For Jones" was one of the tracks on the original Clifford Brown 10" LP (PJ-19), and was recorded in 1954. "Bones For Zoot" and "Brushes" are separate takes of the same tune (recorded in 1959); and Bock added "Bones For Zoot" to the 1960 reissue of the Brown material ("Jazz Immortal", PJ-3).

Edited March 1, 2010 by Jim R

[JamesAHarrod]

You are absolutely correct. My goof, should have said "Bones For Zoot" - should also proof read my posts before hitting the reply key.

Thanks.

Jim

[romualdo]

Thanks again, everyone, for sorting this out

Can now readjust my PJ discography database