A DEEP OLIVE BRANCH TO CHRISTIERN

[Christiern]

And how does this relate to Schwartzenegger?

[Guest DEEP (GET ME OUT OF MY SKULL)]

I JUST HAVE A GUT FEELING THAT *THE GROPER* WILL SORT THIS SHIT OUT.

DEEP

[patricia]

I JUST HAVE A GUT FEELING THAT *THE GROPER* WILL SORT THIS SHIT OUT.

DEEP

I'd be interested in seeing "The Groper's" views. This is an open discussion. Some come for the fireworks.

Perhaps your gut is right though.

GROPER??

OOPS. He's gone. So is "anonymous". I guess the call to cook or get off the stove was taken seriously.

NOJ?? What's your view??

Now he's gone too. Seems to be contageous.

Edited January 15, 2004 by patricia

[clinthopson]

Der TGropenfeuhrer vill lead us to victory!

Und dat's der troot.

[The Groper]

Oh, goody--a jazz and politics forum. Or is it politics and jazz? In either case a distinctly heady brew. I just stumbled in, but would like to add my two-cents' worth.

President Bush is a LEADER. Disagree with his policies if you like, but you cannot accuse him of DITHERING, like a certain predecessor did (I might include his own father). Since 1979, when our nation was humiliated in Iran, a succession of ditherers has failed to formulate a coherent policy in the Middle East. Meanwhile, theocratic and totalitarian states festered and spawned emboldened terrorists such as the arch-villain bin Laden. After 9/11, the inevitable result of strategic impotence (post-Cold War), President Bush said, "NO MORE!" Like Truman (The buck stops here), he took responsibility for the DEFENSE of this country and like-minded democracies. That is his CONSTITUTIONAL DUTY. (note to the cynical and conspiracy-minded: It's only incidentally about oil). Sure, there are other areas of the world that suffer repression, brutality and a dearth of arts funding, but there is a NEXUS in the Middle East and Saddam's Iraq was the logical place to put a lot of people on notice. Tactics, diplomacy and arguments will come and go, but RESOLVE is understandable in any language. HAIL TO THE CHIEF!

[patricia]

Oh, goody--a jazz and politics forum.  Or is it politics and jazz?  In either case a distinctly heady brew.  I just stumbled in, but would like to add my two-cents' worth.

President Bush is a LEADER.  Disagree with his policies if you like, but you cannot accuse him of DITHERING, like a certain predecessor did (I might include his own father).  Since 1979, when our nation was humiliated in Iran, a succession of ditherers has failed to formulate a coherent policy in the Middle East.  Meanwhile, theocratic and totalitarian states festered and spawned emboldened terrorists such as the arch-villain bin Laden.  After 9/11, the inevitable result of strategic impotence (post-Cold War), President Bush said, "NO MORE!"  Like Truman (The buck stops here), he took responsibility for the DEFENSE of this country and like-minded democracies.  That is his CONSTITUTIONAL DUTY.  (note to the cynical and conspiracy-minded: It's only incidentally about oil).  Sure, there are other areas of the world that suffer repression, brutality and a dearth of arts funding, but there is a NEXUS in the Middle East and Saddam's Iraq was the logical place to put a lot of people on notice.  Tactics, diplomacy and arguments will come and go, but RESOLVE is understandable in any language.  HAIL TO THE CHIEF!

There you go. AND if...if...if...

If your aunt had balls, she's be your uncle. Not relevant. Iraq was contained and was not a threat to the U.S.

DEFENSE of the U.S. was not an issue. The U.S. was not in danger of being attacked by Iraq, and I think you know that. That is the only justification for launching a war on another nation.

The fabled WMD were bravado at best and I think that this administration knew that, or they wouldn't have launched an attack.

Did you pay attention to what methods the Iraqis used in retaliation??

Holy man!!!

If being the "tough guy" of the world was the goal, then the "Mission Accomplished" banner was true. But, at what price?? If the war were fought on the ground, without the massive destruction and death meted out, impersonally from the air, do you think that we would be so anxious to kill thousands of innocent people, looking each one in the eyes.............for power for the few and, yes, OIL???

More importantly, would YOU be willing to die for this??? Or are you just willing to let young men and women on both sides and Iraqi children, die for you???

Edited January 15, 2004 by patricia

[randissimo]

I JUST HAVE A GUT FEELING THAT *THE GROPER* WILL SORT THIS SHIT OUT.

DEEP

Groper? ,, Isn't that a fish??

[patricia]

You know the fish is a grouper.

When GROPER suits up and joins the GROUND TROOPS in Iraq, he/she may be taken a little more seriously.

LEADER??? Please. Bush is a puppet, at best.

[randissimo]

You know the fish is a grouper.

When GROPER suits up and joins the GROUND TROOPS in Iraq, he/she may be taken a little more seriously.

LEADER??? Please. Bush is a puppet, at best.

Please. Bush is a puppet, at best.

I am of this belief as well... IMO Cheney is the one runnin' the show...

[The Groper]

Dear New Friends,

Pardon me for loving and running--or should I say planting a stinker and evacuating?

Clinthopson and Christiern: Yes, I am proud of my Germanic heritage. However, I totally disavow Hitler, Nazis and all other forms of totalitarianism, particularly political correctness, the closest I hope the U.S. will ever come to mind control. Arnold is not my hero and "groping" describes my intellect, not my behavior with women.

Patricia: You, like so many other bleeding hearts, must learn to connect the dots. The world is a dangerous place and we do ourselves and kin no favor by hiding, ignoring, hoping, appeasing and cynically suspecting. There is no safe haven. There are imminent threats and there are gathering threats, implied and explicit threats. You can't whistle past the graveyard. The U.S. has not killed "thousands" of innocents in Iraq (define "innocents" for me anyway--and don't obfuscate with "the children"). No one can honestly answer the question, "Would you die for this or that cause?" until that supremely existential moment. All I can say is that I served in my country's armed services when called upon. How 'bout you?

[SGUD missile]

Uhhh ..

We seem to have wandered far afield from DEEPies original content

specifications for this thread ( namely, bebop, illegal substances, and fornication and other sybarritic delights )

BTW: Patricia ..Q 's pianist in the 50s was named Patti BOWN, I believe

And I have nothing to say about DUBBya I aint said earlier . My feelings in that area are well known ..

..and no, I havent forgotten 9/11 either ..

[Christiern]

Patti Bown played big piano--but she didn't knock me out with it!

My favorite comedian these days is Geo. W. Bush, who this week said:

"No president has ever done more for human rights than I have."

Yes, and...

[Guest DEEP (GET ME OUT OF MY SKULL)]

I get the feeling that THE GROPER likes living in America.

I don't know why I get that feeling....I just do.

DEEP

[Christiern]

There's just so much to grope!

[connoisseur series500]

But, the war against Germany started in 1939, not 1941 and Canada was there. The Americans didn't get involved in WW11, until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour.

Canada was there Patty because England was there. Canada wasn't quite independent at the time. They had some degree of autonomy but not completely. Perhaps you could remind me of the details of the arrangement. I forgot the term used.

[clinthopson]

Is it true that the grouper is going through a DEEP dry spell?

[Guest DEEP (GET ME OUT OF MY SKULL)]

Is it true that the grouper is going through a DEEP dry spell?

CLIT,

As sad as it may seem, not everybody hates BUSH and apparently THE GROPO is one who doesn't.

I hate to disappoint you but THE GROPER is his own man.

DEEP

[Guest DEEP (GET ME OUT OF MY SKULL)]

CHRISTIERN,

Q: What is the going price for liner notes when people DO accept the task?

DEEP

[Christiern]

It depends on the length of the notes and the label. We used to get $75 for notes at Prestige until Joe Goldberg made a deal with Bob Weinstock to do them for $50. Guess what? Suddenly 50 bucks was what we all got.

In more recent years, a regular set of notes goes for $350 to $600, but more is paid for extensive (i.e. box set) annotation. Back in the 1970s, Time-Life paid $7,000 for each "Giants of Jazz" booklet ($3,500 each for the bio and the track descriptions). I did a few and became quite spoiled.

Anyway, the ordinary single CD on a non-major label should command about 350-500.

[patricia]

But, the war against Germany started in 1939, not 1941 and Canada was there.  The Americans didn't get involved in WW11, until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour.

Canada was there Patty because England was there. Canada wasn't quite independent at the time. They had some degree of autonomy but not completely. Perhaps you could remind me of the details of the arrangement. I forgot the term used.

Conn,

Yes, Canada's constitution was held in England, by the British, although we didn't pay taxes to them. Our laws were based on English Common Law and still are. The "Speech from the Throne" was originally read by whoever the King or Queen was, but then was passed to our Attorney General, and is still read as a formality, at the opening of Paliament. Originally, our laws had to be approved by Britain, but they aren't any more.

Pierre Trudeau, during his tenure, in the late 1960's, as Prime Minister, formally asked that our constitution be given to us, by England and it was. We had been independant of the British Empire for decades, for all intents and purposes.

Our connection to the British is merely a cultural one, at best now.

We are as independant as the U.S. is from Britain.

However, during the early part of the twentieth century, we were part of the British Empire, and our army volunteered as a matter of course, as well as as a gesture of solidarity against a common enemy, Hitler.

Oh, and GROPER, I don't hate Mr Bush. I simply thought, and still think that the war that Mr Bush has initiated was based on a series of deceptions and, although I don't hate him, I wonder how much of the intelligence he received was known, by him to be untrue. He may very well have been totally out of the loop. Of course, he doesn't, as far as I know, take the position that Truman took that "The Buck Stops Here" and if challenged will most likely point to underlings, who will fall on their swords, much as Reagan's underlings did, after the Iran/Contra affair.

Edited January 16, 2004 by patricia

[patricia]

Uhhh ..

We seem to have wandered far afield from DEEPies original content

specifications for this thread ( namely, bebop, illegal substances, and fornication and other sybarritic delights )

BTW: Patricia ..Q 's pianist in the 50s was named Patti BOWN, I believe

And I have nothing to say about DUBBya I aint said earlier . My feelings in that area are well known ..

..and no, I havent forgotten 9/11 either ..

SGud,

You're right, of course, about Patti "Bown" and I knew that it wasn't "Brown". I edited. Thanks. Oops.

[patricia]

Dear New Friends,

Pardon me for loving and running--or should I say planting a stinker and evacuating?

Clinthopson and Christiern:  Yes, I am proud of my Germanic heritage.  However, I totally disavow Hitler, Nazis and all other forms of totalitarianism, particularly political correctness, the closest I hope the U.S. will ever come to mind control.  Arnold is not my hero and "groping" describes my intellect, not my behavior with women.

Patricia:  You, like so many other bleeding hearts, must learn to connect the dots.  The world is a dangerous place and we do ourselves and kin no favor by hiding, ignoring, hoping, appeasing and cynically suspecting.  There is no safe haven.  There are imminent threats and there are gathering threats, implied and explicit threats.  You can't whistle past the graveyard.  The U.S. has not killed "thousands" of innocents in Iraq (define "innocents" for me anyway--and don't obfuscate with "the children").  No one can honestly answer the question, "Would you die for this or that cause?" until that supremely existential moment.  All I can say is that I served in my country's armed services when called upon.  How 'bout you?

Isn't it a little passe' to refer to people who are not eager to kill total strangers for the benefit of the greedy few, "Bleeding Hearts". Is it unacceptable to reject violence as a solution to global conflicts and to prefer diplomacy and international law over bombing the bejesus out of the adversary, when at all possible??

The U.N. inspectors had contained any immediate threat and they found no WMD.

The sham justification was presented to the U.N. and didn't receive the expected rubber stamp. No matter. They had every intention of attacking Iraq, before they ever went before the U.N. Do you seriously think that the U.S. had any intention of withdrawing the hundreds of members of the miliary amassed within striking distance of Iraq?? No matter what the decision of the U.N., the U.S. and Britain were going to attack Iraq.

The U.S. claimed to have top-secret documents, pinpointing the location of the weapons' locations, but "couldn't" share the information with the U.N. inspectors because the information was "top secret". The war was launched. The U.S. sends in their own inspectors, with none, apparently, of the detailed information alluded to as to the WMD's location. They have found nothing so far, nor do they expect to. So, how much actual fact was involved? Isn't that the same thing as lying??

............................

As for whether I served in the military, no I didn't. The U.S. had the draft during the sixties, when Vietnam was the war in progress. Canada had no draft and despite that, many of my highschool friends enlisted in the U.S. military, three of whom were killed. My father and all his brothers [7], served in the military, during WW!!, and two of them were killed, one was permanently disabled.

My mother lived in London, when it was being bombed by the Germans, during WW11 and her apartment building, in a suburb, was levelled by one of them, while she was at work in the city. Both my parents thought that WW11 was justified and disagreed with the Vietnam conflict.

As for the number of Iraqis who have been killed so far, you're right that there are no solid numbers, but our [Canada's] journalists put the number at thousands. I was not attempting to make the deaths of these people more sympathetic by mentioning children as numbering among the dead, but simply stating a fact.

Yes the world is a dangerous place. I wasn't denying that. I also didn't say that war in self-defense was not justified.

I say again that the U.S. was not in imminent danger, so this war is not a defensive one, but an unprovoked act of aggression, specifically not justified by the "rules of engagement" agreed to by the U.S. along with the other signators.

Yes, I respect life and if that makes me a "bleeding heart", well then I guess I am and, as I say, I make no apologies for wanting a non-military solution to global conflicts.

Wanting to be the most feared and militarily mighty and so being above international law is not IMO the way to any kind of co-existance, much less any form of peace.

Edited January 16, 2004 by patricia

[pepe]

I don't know how cold it is where you are but it's 15 below where I am (in the USA) and my heat bill for December was $316.00.

Now the fact of the matter is our country runs on oil. They got it, we need it.

We could just forget about it and go back to being farmers with horse and buggys.

If the economy of the USA failed how the fuck long do you think the do nothing, love-in Canucks would last??

The US is being very altruistic by letting the Sanchucks profit from their own resources. They're just too fucking stupid to even appreciate it.

DEEP

If living in the US gives you so much trouble, why not consider handing it over to the indians again? Geronimo for president!

[Guest DEEP (GET ME OUT OF MY SKULL)]

I don't know how cold it is where you are but it's 15 below where I am (in the USA) and my heat bill for December was $316.00.

Now the fact of the matter is our country runs on oil. They got it, we need it.

We could just forget about it and go back to being farmers with horse and buggys.

If the economy of the USA failed how the fuck long do you think the do nothing, love-in Canucks would last??

The US is being very altruistic by letting the Sanchucks profit from their own resources. They're just too fucking stupid to even appreciate it.

DEEP

If living in the US gives you so much trouble, why not consider handing it over to the indians again? Geronimo for president!

peepee,

Your cognitive English comprehension needs a little work. Where does anything in the body of my message mention I'm having trouble living in the USA? Au contraire....I'm rich...I can afford my heat bills...I just want to be assured that the means needed to heat my home are available to me. GEORGE W. BUSH is providing me with that assurance.

GOD BLESS GEORGE W. BUSH AND THESE UNITED STATES.

FUCK THE MIDDLE EAST.....FEED'EM FISH!!

DEEP

Edited January 16, 2004 by DEEP (GET ME OUT OF MY SKULL)

[pepe]

But you wake up quite early, don't you?