BLINDFOLD TEST #4 - DISCUSSION

[chuckyd4]

So I got mine in the mail yesterday, thanks to big help from Jim Dye!

Gonna go ahead and put down my thoughts wrt to Disc 1... overall I thought this was a really nice set of music, Jim. Very few low points in my book.

Also, I should mention that I am writing this without reading past the first page of responses, which I read before I ever got the disc. Haven't reread anything.

Disc 1:

1. There are a lot of tunes implied in that piano intro - I hear definite shades of Monk, and I think I caught a snippet of "Prelude to a Kiss". When the band comes in, though - WHoa! Totally different tune, seems to me. On a limb, I would say the piano player was somebody like Sir Roland Hanna - someone with the clusters of Monk, but a smoother delivery. As for the rest of the band, don't know, but I liked the nice, easily relaxed swing. The trumpet player said Woody Shaw to me. Don't know if Shaw and Hanna were ever in a band together, but its something from their circles and era.

2. No idea here - not something I'd put on over and over again, but I like the mix of R & B and what sounded like a light Caribbean feel to me. Makes me wonder - there's got to be some connection between this and the two that come on either side, but I have no idea what it is.

3. First thought was Thad Jones-Mel Lewis on some kind of edgy speed - I like the drive of it, maybe Akiyoshi-Tabackin from one of those RCA lps I've never heard? Piano sounded too edgy for that to me though... Clarke-Boland? Now I'm just throwing out names. Then when the tenor sax came in, though - that has to be Booker Ervin, which could mean that this is a group of Mingus-related people, but I definitely don't think it's Mingus. Especially that section where the horns solo simultaneously, though, some of those ensemble passages sound like him. I like this one.

4. Now we get to Clarke-Boland in my mind... the tempo in three, the latin percussion, the driving funk bass - reminds me of some of the C-BBB dates from the 70's. But the guitar solo throws me completely out of place... still these are solid jazz solos on either side of it.

5. Don't recognize the vocalist. How could anyone not dig this? Makes me want to find my lady friend and get down.

6. Don't tend to listen to a lot of vocalists with this approach... makes me feel kind of icky, like I need a long hot shower. Arrangements are much too thick, the vocalist doesn't takke enough chances for my tastes. Low point of the disc for me.

7. Man, this one sent me back to my collection trying to find the name of that Monk tune! I can think of a lot that it isn't... this was either an alto/clarinet/piano trio or a duet with a guy who doubles. I like the way that they prolong getting around to the melody until the end; Michael Moore does this a lot with the Clusone 3. Could it be some duet with him and Mengelberg? Don't know, but I'd like to hear the rest of this album.

8. The first two notes out of the gate reminded me exactly of Dex, but the solo just doesn't bear that out... AT ALL. Whoever this group is, I'm going to find more - sounds like none of the tenors in my collection, exactly, so it's probably someone I've been meaning to investigate more.

9. Reminds me of some scary, stripped-down Beefheart. Good track to annoy the girlfriend - I dig it, but probably couldn't do a whole album, what else is on the original? this is either some early drummer doing a traditional tune or a more experimental 60's cat making up his own.

10. Just wrote a review of this reissue for my website - no fair! But God he's brilliant... listen to the way he takes that bass drum beat and subdues it into a smoother rhythmic flow, with all his accents and rolls over the top. This is brilliant stuff - my highest rating. You can read the review here.

11. No idea, but I'm judging from the last track that this is from around World War I, considering the military mood and the hilarious German episode (ha! crazy...) Who was that guy in the army in WWI with the band? Europe or something? Had a feeling this track was mostly there to set up the next one.

12. Man, I would stop now if I wasn't able to ID this group. And I do like the placement after the last one, Jim... I know I have this disc in my collection - is it one of the recent reissues?

13. This has gotta be Stan Getz on tenor, or else somebody with a heavy Lester influence. And when the clarinet solo comes in, I know Art Pepper could play some mean clarinet... is this some type of reunion of the old Herman herd? I thought this track was so so... not my favorite, but it swung nice and hard.

14. Sounds like Gerry Mulligan on bari to me; one of his quartets? I'm horrible at ID'ing bari players, though... obviously someone with a light tone, though. I dig the floating quality he has; don't think he digs hard enough into certain phrases to be Mulligan. I like the laid-back, on the beat guitar solo, too. Piano player is very economical but exciting. Jimmy Rowles? Whoever he is, he clearly listened to a lot of Basie. I love this track in its ability to move and stand still at the same time.

15. My first thought was the Hamp and Oscar Peterson recordings - I've been meaning to pick that up for a long time. Vibes and piano are both virtuosi, clearly (must be Hamp! caught a couple of grunts). Could have done without the Latin percussion, though. Gonna go get that box set when I get some dough.

I found a lot of the tracks had familiar melodies that I just couldn't name. Anyway, liked the disc, Jim, and I'll try to get on to disc 2 in the next day or so.

Edited December 15, 2003 by chuckyd4

[Jim Dye]

Anybody want to add a little more meat to the bone here?...

MEAT

[Jim R]

Anybody want to add a little more meat to the bone here?...

MEAT

Jim.... despite the fact that there are no less than 30 tracks listed for that.... I don't see a song title that matches our disc 1 track 5 (isn't it "That's My Desire"?). I do see the "meat" regarding the other two names I mentioned, but they were also listed on the CD I linked, and your link was also to a CD with no LP release data given. I was wondering what LP (since Jim took this track from vinyl) it might have come from... am I confused?

[Harold_Z]

I checked out the MEAT. I thought I had all the JB I needed. I mean I've got a ton of vinyl and a bunch of cd's. Most of it is pre 1970. But this thread has made me realize there are a few absolutely killer sides that I missed. (Followed by a vision of $$$ signs flying out the window).

SANGREY - YOUR COSTING ME MONEY !!!!

[JSngry]

Y'all should know that it's KILLING me not to be able to chime in on all this. The comments are really interesting (and sometimes dead-on accurate!). The analytical detective work is stuff that I really dig doing myself - saying "I think it's X because of ABC", and then somebody comes back with. "it couldn't be because of DEF". It's not the guessing, it's the sharpening of hearing, discernment, historical awareness, etc. And then to read somebody saying "I don't have a clue who this is, but I like/dislike it beacuse...", well, that's a beautiful thing, and the essence of "blind" listening - how you gonna feel about something totally on its own merits, without any preconceptions? So keep it up, folks!

Ok, as for the latest item under debate, I will tell you that the item is listed on AMG under the singer's name, with a photo of the cover, no commentary, and a woefully inaccurate rating. So if you got the patience, you can find it!

[mikeweil]

Here's what I've dug up so far - in the depths of my brain and my collection and computer:

1-1: Very nice piano intro. But this is certainly not Monk's "Ask Me Now" as some have guessed, although one line resembles it. This might be something Cedar Walton wrote - and played. Trumpet sounds like Freddie Hubbard, but only his lyrical side, without the bite. Tenor - now I know there's a record with Walton, Tom Harrell and Bob Berg - Berg it could be. Not sure. Sounds like early 1970's. Like the relaxed manner in which they play it - I think I know these guys.

1-2: This is HIP!!! I sure would like to have this one!!! No idea who it is, but I dig this stuff with hand drums and African-derived rhythms because it exemplifies the close relationship of Jazz to African music - much closer than many would like to think. That piano has traditional and modern elements, and the rhythm. There should be more music like this.

1-3: Another 1970's recording - post hardbop with modal elements. Reminds me of the stuff Woody Shaw played with his band at the time. What I like about the piece is how they stir up the excitement and go down again for the next solo, inspired playing. I probably know these cats too, but ....

1-4: I'd guess a later Woody Herman Big Band piece. Nice baritone. Don't have any of that stuff, but that's what it sounds like to me.

1-5: My disco says Irene Reid and LaVern Baker did that song, I don't know their voices enough to tell (bought my first Irene Reid CD only a few weeks ago, don't have Baker's Bessie LP any more to compare). From what I remember Baker's voice sounds like - but I could be wrong. A singer with a lot of experience, power and self-consciousness. Yeah!

1-6: I like this better than most singers-with-strings dates I have heard, but have no idea who this is. Her intonation on the phrase "Come back to me" sounds a little strange to these ears.

1-7: "Monk's "Little Rootie Tootie". For my taste, the connection between the theme and the outside playing could be closer, a continuous blend from inside to outside playing - although they go a little in that direction. I'd like to hear someone who takes smaller steps between the two extremes. - A little sleuthing reveals this might be Jane Bunnett and Don Pullen - sure could be Pullen - I always missed the middle ground in his playing.

1-8: Again, like in the previous BTs, a tenor that sounds very familiar. But this turn I took my time to listen and think about it a little more. My guess is an LP I always wanted to hear: James Moody and the Hip Organ Trio, with Mickey Tucker, Roland Wilson and Eddie Gladden. One of the few Tucker LPs from that time I don't have ...

This is a slighty different take on organ/tenor playing - would like to hear more of this!

1-9: Another hip drum thing - sounds like some New Orleans influence. No idea who this is, but again would like to have it.

1-10: Baby Dodds!!! Knew this after a few bars! Reminds me I have to get that CD reissue of his Asch/Folkways recordings - this is probably from these sessions. I have a similar solo on an anthology. Great stuff. There was only one Baby Dodds! A high place in the pantheon of jazz drumming.

1-11: Probably some New Orleans Brass Band stuff: I know there was some on the Baby Dodds CD reissue - so ..... This i very rootsy music. I have to check this out.

1-12: The Art Ensemble of Chicago, that was a BYG LP of the late 1960's, one of the first 100 Jazz Lps I bought, but I don't have it any more. I listened to it a hundred times and knew every note, learned a lot from it - I started out - as naive as could be - with free style playing, and this showed a connection to tradition as well as some theatrical element. One of the most important small jazz groups of all time. One cannot give them enough credit. I wouldn't listen to or play this way all the time, but this is very important stuff

1-13: Finally we get our much awaited JSngry take on the Getz clone! I can't tell all these "Brothers" from one another. All are great players, great swing, I like that alto player. Have to listen some more times to this one to tell more.

1-14: Another Getz clone! Has a Basie vibe. A little too pedestrian for my taste. Don't like the drummer - doesn't do much during the solos, and the quadruple time stuff in the drums breaks is not sophisticated enough for the gentlemanlike playing that precedes him. I probably know some of these, but I'm not sure, have to listen closer.

So much for disc one.

[Jim R]

Ok, as for the latest item under debate, I will tell you that the item is listed on AMG under the singer's name, with a photo of the cover, no commentary, and a woefully inaccurate rating. So if you got the patience, you can find it!

Not a whole lotta MEAT (baby), but this could be SWEET!

[mikeweil]

I start in the middle of disc two, more to come.

2-4: The Carla Bley / Steve Swallow Band - from the first of the Watt Lps they made. I vividly remember how I excited I was about this when I heard it a the place of a friend when it was brand new, and went out the next day to buy it. I kept only the next two albums of this band because I liked them better, saw them live in Frankfurt. That was a great take on slightly decadent groove music. Has to be taken with tongue a little in cheek.

2-5: Probably The World's Greatest Jazz Band from their first Atlantic LP. I have this, but I am too lazy to check ... They were better than most Dixieland bands of the 1970's, in fact they were the best! I remember some unkind words about Gus Johnson being buried in a dixie band during those years, but I thought they were great.

2-6: The Clare Fischer Big Band playing "Lennie's Pennies", with Warne Marsh, Gary Foster, Larry Bunker. Fischer did some great big band writing during that time. That was the first time I heard and appreciated Warne Marsh, a highly individualistic player. Bought the LP out of curiosity, I wanted to know what kind of music that bearded gentleman on the cover made - and what a find it was! I went shopping with my parents once a week as we lived in the country, and one shop in the center always had Atlantic LP sales - I discovered a lot of stuff at the time. Still have it - and the Discovery CD reissue. Very good big band!

2-7: Anthony Braxton - Creative Orchestra Music. I LMAO when I heard his take on marching music on that LP, and heard him do some with the Globe Unity Orchestra a year later - hilarious stuff! Peter Kowald and Peter Brötzmann duelling on tuba and bass sax! Even better than this album. Braxton is another musician that never quite got the credit he deserves. Can't listen to that all the time, but important music for sure, expanding boundaries.

2-10: Is this Percy Mayfield? The voice reminds me of him.

2-11: Arthur Blythe? Could be him, and I know he had a band with trombone, tuba, two guitars and percussion. The drummer overplays a little during the solos for my taste, he should have played closer to the level of the African drums instead of hitting full throttle with every fill. His patterns are nice, but the fills are too loud. He should have used real timbales instead of the electronic drums. I like the idea and concept and groove very much, and all of the horn players.

More on the other tracks to come.

Edited December 12, 2003 by mikeweil

[paul secor]

I've listened to the first CD a couple of times and want to post my comments and guesses. I've made it a point not to look at any comments, and won't until I post my comments on the second CD. When I signed up for Jim's test, I decided that I would listen strictly for pleasure, and not make my self crazy with speculation. I've tried to do that, but without total success - I got a little frustrated hearing things and trying to guess, rather than just enjoying the music. Anyway, here goes:

1 - I really like the piano player, and like the theme played by the band. No idea who the players could be. If I had to make a wild guess - maybe a Joel Forrester group.

2 - Yeah, it is "almost good". Catchy, but lightweight - a single I'd keep in my collection if it were by someone famous.

3 - No idea - liked the alto player - possibly Jimmy Woods? A Gerald Wilson date? Also found the piano player interesting.

4 - Not my kind of thing at all. Heavy backbeat, forced bluesy solos - like a soundtrack to a mediocre late 60's, early 70's movie. I did like the bit of clarinet after the second trumpet solo.

5 - Knew who this was the second I heard it. The singer is an ex-drummer, and the band is led by a drummer. I'm used to hearing "That's My Desire" done by doo wop groups, but this singer is enough of a stylist to pull it off. Nice arrangement and band work.

6 - Don't know who this is. Sounded okay - Rosemary Clooney? It's probably someone I should know.

7 - "Little Rootie Tootie" - great version! I'll buy this when I find out who it is - hope it's still in print. Loved the way they worked into the theme - instead of theme and variations, it was variations into theme.

8 - "Secret Love" - Great stuff! I'll buy this one too. Sounds like a tenor player I should recognize, but I'm stumped. Loved the organ solo too. Everyone was whaling on this tune.

9 - Very entertaining. This cat was definitely under the influence of something, even if only hisself!

10 - First I thought Baby Dodds. Then maybe Jo Jones. I thought of Nat Hentoff's description of Jo Jones playing a long solo, starting on his drumset, and then moving on to play everything in the room. Hentoff says he would play for up to an hour, and time would stop. I had that feeling with whoever this is. It could have gone on for much longer, and I would have been entranced. Another one to buy if it's available.

11 - No idea. Sounds like something out of W's collection - he could play it for the troops.

12 - Have this one in my collection. At least three members of the band experienced having to "Get in Line!"

13 - I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to big bands, but I enjoyed this. Great sax solo. The arrangement and presence of a clarinetist made me think Woody Herman, but I'm almost competely unknowledgeable about his music.

14 - I also have this record. There was some discussion of it on the Board two or three months ago. Great, great tenor solo! I have to hear more of this man's music.

15 - Another one I'd buy. The vibes and piano were so together and in sync, that they almost sounded overdubbed. Too early for that, though.

Comments on CD 2 tomorrow.

[mikeweil]

From other people's comments about the title, I am wondering whether this is Disc 1, track 8?

D1T8?

No, definitely not - I have this LP and that ain't the one!

[mikeweil]

Cut #12 on disc one sounds like two cuts? Not sure if they run into other on vinyl but the later's got Threadgill's sound before he ran away to the circus. Definitely something from the Nessa bag.

It was two tracks on the LP.

[mikeweil]

4. Now we get to Clarke-Boland in my mind... the tempo in three, the latin percussion, the driving funk bass - reminds me of some of the C-BBB dates from the 70's. But the guitar solo throws me completely out of place... still these are solid jazz solos on either side of it.

No, that ain't Clarke/Boland! They never used an electric bass, and I'm not sure about a guitar, but certainly not one as fuzzy as this! And it's not Boland arranging style!

[mikeweil]

Forgot to comment on Disc 1, Track 15:

Hamp it could be, like several of you suggested. I know he did these sessions for his own label with Candido playing conga on some, but have never heard this. Not quite my cup of tea.

I screw up at least one on each Blindfold Test, but it cools me down I'm not the only one to mistake JB for a woman ... I played this to a 16-year-old girl (with German/Mozambiquean parents) that helps us around the house to upgrade her pocket money and sings in a choir - she said after one note it was a man!

And when I think about the very first track: Horace Silver, that's the piano concept, crystal clear. He has some touches of Ellington and Monk, of course. But Monk's tunes are built in a totally different way! I have them all here in a very recommendable book, all 70 of 'em. Some phrases, yes, but not the tune. Silver had Harrell and Berg in the band for a while, so that makes sense ...

Have yet to think about some tracks, didn't read the commentary about those ... this is some bunch of work to do!

Edited December 14, 2003 by mikeweil

[Big Wheel]

I think you may be right on disc 1, number 8, Mike. I'm going to check my radio station as soon as I can to see if we have that one. Haven't heard enough of the guy so I'm not sure it's him, but the drummer on that record sounds very plausible to me as the guy who's on the BT track. Was that organ player good enough to pull off some of those Jimmy Smith licks, though?

That tune is driving me nuts, in the best of ways! I think I've played that one tune about 8 times more than I've played the entire rest of the test!

[EKE BBB]

Anybody want to add a little more meat to the bone here?...

MEAT

In my first post, I included a link to a AMG review of a JB disc where this song is included:

AMG review

Edited December 12, 2003 by EKE BBB

[Tom Storer]

I would be surprised if I was to learn that James Brown had recorded with Louis Bellson's orchestra, and with Oliver Nelson arranging. Anybody (besides Jim, of course) know if that ever happened?

Have a gander at this site and scroll down.

[EKE BBB]

Disc 2

I dedicated less time to this second disc. But here are some thoughts/guesses:

1.- No idea of what that kind of experimentation could be. Glad to hear something new, anyway.

3/5

2.- I don´t like the percussion. Sounds a bit tedious to me. No idea who could be.

3/5

3.- Marvin Gaye, no doubt! Which is this song? I did some research based on the lyrics, but couldn´t find anything!

Beautiful.

4/5

4.- Interesting bass guitarist! Don´t know who he is, however. The piano is a bit minimalist, skeletal. Interesting, but not my cup of tea.

2,5/5

5.- This is a New Orleans revival disc (I´d say late 40´s, but because of the sound I would place it in the 50´s). Many players could fit this description: Bud Freeman (ts), Pee Wee Russell (cl), Kid Ory or Jack Teagarden on trombone (well, I don´t think they´re on this track). I like the trumpetist´s work. Could he be Billy Butterfield? Or Jimmy McPartland?

The track title? Obviously “At the jazz band ball” (Edwards / LaRocca / Ragas / Sbarbaro / Shields this means the ODJB) I love this song. My favorite all time cover of this song is, of course, that one with the great Bix Beiderbecke!!!

Definitely, THIS IS MY CUP OF TEA!!!

4,5/5

6.- Alto saxophonist with big band. No clue about them. The sound/arrangements of the orchestra are not familiar to me. Good, very good!

4/5

7.- Wonderful amalgam of horns playing together uptempo! But I have noooooooo idea of who could be!

4/5

8.- The swingingest band ever. Ladies and gentleman, salute the Count. Yeah, this is the Old Testament band. I must check my Basie collection to identify the song: first stage, eliminating small ensembles and big band with vocals (sorry old Rush…).

Caviar, caviar…

Maybe we´ll have to wait for my good friend mmilovan to post for identifying every piece of this song. I´m sure he will give us all we need (even the name of the third trumpeter´s grandmother or the beers the second trombonist had taken before this recording session)

5/5

9.- If this is not a pianoless trio date by Sonny Rollins, it´s near it and very influenced by Sonny. If it´s Sonny, I´d say this is from the 60´s better than from the 50´s.

Good bass solo!!!

4,5/5

10.- Not my cup of tea (I´m and old-fashioned bastard, but hey, that´s me).

2/5

11.- Another unknown region for me. Couldn´t bring a guess at all!

3/5

Edited December 12, 2003 by EKE BBB

[king ubu]

I would be surprised if I was to learn that James Brown had recorded with Louis Bellson's orchestra, and with Oliver Nelson arranging.  Anybody (besides Jim, of course) know if that ever happened?

Have a gander at this site and scroll down.

now this record would be a cool one to have!

ubu

[king ubu]

More interesting comments on Disc 1 track 1 - Horace Silver seems to be the one... could well be, I think, I don't know any of his seventies or later stuff.

Anyone has a guess what recording/tune it could be?

ubu

[mikeweil]

After his Blue Note contract ended in 1980, Horace Silver recorded four (or more, I have info on four) LPs for his own label, Silveto. (An inidicator for how it was on the jazz scene in those years, and still is, that someone like Silver doesn't get a contract!)

The first "Guides to growing up" has no trumpet and Eddie Harris.

The second "Spiritualizing the Senses" has Bobby Shew and Ralph Moore alternating with Harris.

The third "There's no need to struggle" has Bobby Shew and Eddie Harris.

The fourth has Carl Saunders and four flutes and strings.

So it could only be the second, and the drummer on that one, Carl Burnett, fits in the picture. Bob Maize is on bass, no vocals. I'd go for this. Ralph Moore of course, this must have been his first session with Silver. It is not Eddie.

Edited December 12, 2003 by mikeweil

[mikeweil]

now this record would be a cool one to have!

Soul on Top - doesn't seem to be available as a single disc right now. That particular tracks is on the Ballads compilation.

[EKE BBB]

The second "Spiritualizing the Senses" has Bobby Shew and Ralph Moore alternating with Harris.

...

So it could only be the second, and the drummer on that one, Carl Burnett, fits in the picture. Bob Maize is on bass, no vocals. I'd go for this. Ralph Moore of course, this must have been his first session with Silver. It is not Eddie.

Recording data for this one:

Spiritualizing the Senses (Silveto SPR 102)

Bobby Shew (tp) Eddie Harris, Ralph Moore (ts) Horace Silver (p) Bob Maize ( b ) Carl Burnett (d) vocals

NYC, January 19, 1983

Smelling Our Attitude

Seeing with Perception

The Sensitive Touch

Exercising Taste and Good

Judgement

Hearing and Understanding

Moving Forward with Confidence

Which song would it be?

Edited December 12, 2003 by EKE BBB

[king ubu]

Thanks Mike! Appreciated.

I only could identify Silver, but none of the sidemen. I don't have any of the Silveto albums (though I sure would like to hear Eddie who with Horace!). Ralph Moore I have heard, but not enough to recognise him. And I do indeed hope the man on trumpet is NOT Woody Shaw! The sound would just not be at all like him, in my opinion (though it's been some time since I last listened to any record with Woody).

ubu

[couw]

now this record would be a cool one to have!

Soul on Top - doesn't seem to be available as a single disc right now. That particular tracks is on the Ballads compilation.

I was just gonna post that one but Sherlock beat me to it

[JSngry]

I would be surprised if I was to learn that James Brown had recorded with Louis Bellson's orchestra, and with Oliver Nelson arranging.  Anybody (besides Jim, of course) know if that ever happened?

Have a gander at this site and scroll down.

now this record would be a cool one to have!

ubu

It is.