BLINDFOLD TEST #4 - DISCUSSION

[chuckyd4]

Okay, I finally got around to listening to Disc 2 to make some (mildly) educated guesses... have been struggling not to peek, but I've been good. Here goes:

Disc 2:

1 - Really dislike the electronic effects on the tenor. Is this "Nature Boy"? Is that what the infamous varitone sounds like? Surprising misfire on a solid two discs of music. I might be embarrassing myself, but don't think I care what else these players did (at least in this style). Reminds me of a mediocre Elvin Jones disc with Jan Hammer and Gene Perla.

2 - Much better... I dig the melody and the sonority of the tenor and bone. To throw out an idea - seems like something Roswell Rudd might have come up with. George Lewis? Definitely gonna guess some avant cats - bone effects are too blustery. Tenor is great - the way he works the melody - but I have no idea.

3 - Okay, it's easy to embarrass myself here. Sounds like Marvin Gaye doing a Stevie Wonder tune. High notes have to be Marvin. This track makes me very happy - reminds me of the first time I fell in love.

4 - This one stumped me for a while, but I recently reviewed Steve Swallow's Damaged in Transit... seems like that bass sound is uniquely his. Lots of LPs to choose from - suffice it to say I'm more interested in his more recent work: this is much too stagnant for my tastes.

5 - I love this track... the way the New Orleans ensemble is updated with modern solos. I will look for more by this group. This has a smooth, four-beat rhythmic phrasing foreign to some N.O. stuff I've heard. The bone player has clearly listened to J.J. Johnson. Feel like I should know the tenor. But I also like the way they retain older voicings throughout. This is a standout track to these ears.

6 - My first thought was the Lee Konitz Nonet. There is a great, Tristano-esque melody, and the alto solo could be Konitz, IMHO. Also, this group retains the feel of an overgrown mid-size band, which reminds me a lot of the Nonet stuff I've heard. Very smooth, but it swings nicely - I dug this one.

7 - Had no idea at first - again the complexity of a Tristano line - until I heard that staccato, angular phrasing on the alto solo: has to be Braxton. That would also make sense with the Tristano textures. I've needed to pick up more of his Arista stuff... maybe this is hidden in there. I personally love his more traditional jazz ensembles - I find it a great mix of tense styles, much like the "avant Blue Note" stuff.

8 - If that piano intro isn't Basie, with Freddie Green on guitar, then my ears are busted. Maybe an aircheck? The drums are miked surprisingly loudly. This is classic stuff, though (ashamed to admit it) I often get Lester confused with his other major tenor of the time - which could explain the extra hard-driving phrases that hit about halfway through. My guess is Basie wiht a different tenor than Lester. I know Jacquet was in the band in the fifties, but this sounds too old. Great stuff, regardless of my confusion.

9 - Oooohhhh... a Bird tune - solo sounds a lot like Sonny Rollins - I'm convinced; the long tones, repetition of a melodic fragment, the Parker tune; it's all straight from his arsenal. But who's the bassist? I wish to God he'd find a bassist with that much fire again. This is a period I haven't explored, but need to. If this is Sonny, he is taking all kinds of chances a bit unusual for him - crazy trills and slashing phrases. Fascinating.

10 - This one I really don't know. Wasn't digging on this too hard. Doesn't really pique my curiosity.

11 - My first thought was how I never noticed how much Blythe and Threadgill's tones sound so similar. I'm gonna vote for the latter, though... the ensemble seems like a dead giveaway. Seems like the man is incredibly consistent - he always pulls out a new wrinkle, and I always love the outcome. The honks are pure Threadgill, and the smaller influence of Bird distinguishes him from Blythe. I'll have to find this disc.

Okay... that about does it. I'm just glad that I can finally read the whole thread, and find out how badly I've been off on some of these things.

BTW... thanks again to Jim for putting this together... I think I discovered some new stuff worth exploring, and liked the thought that went into its progression. You've set the bar high on my first Blindfold Test.

[chuckyd4]

Okay... it looks like a lot of other people got this one. But FWIW:

D1, T10

Tom, I liked your comments about the mix of traditional bass drum beat and accents that "modernize" it - that's what I was driving at in my piece.

[mikeweil]

Tom, I liked your comments about the mix of traditional bass drum beat and accents that "modernize" it - that's what I was driving at in my piece.

I just ordered this CD, will get it before Xmas! I too thought these remarks very appropriate - considering how old this stuff is, one of the foundations of jazz drumming, its modernity is amazing, and his work with rhythmic themes is something I miss with most more modern drummers.

[couw]

Is anyone else having a difficult time to "get into" these discussions? I continually have to take a look at my own comments to recall the actual track on which comments are being made. Maybe in this respect the 2disk thing was not such a good idea after all; I really got into the previous sets, almost knew them by heart and could follow discussions without referring to the disks or my own comments; the tunes plaing in my head as I read what others thought about them.

This test provides too much for me to grasp in such a short time. Definitely also a fault on my part as I am occupied with many things at the moment, but still a point of critique. The music is still way cool though.

[Jazzmoose]

Yeah, I have to agree, Couw; the two discs are a bit much to handle. Of course, the fact that I seem to have misplaced my notes to part of the second disc isn't helping...

[king ubu]

This is a little bit of a problem. But keeping an overview over this thread is rather difficult, as it grows and grows...

On the other hand, Jim's two discs include that much good music, it really would be a shame we had only one disc of that!

By the way, the idea of Disc2,#1 being Eric Kloss gets me interested again in that musician. I only have the already mentioned Fantasy CD coupling two dates with Patterson, and like that one quite much. Got to dig up disc two again as soon as I can and have another listen!

ubu

[Tom Storer]

Okay... it looks like a lot of other people got this one. But FWIW:

D1, T10

That's a great review, chuckyd!

[JSngry]

Well, the discussion period of the two discs is limited (and would be with a single disc as well), but the time to listen to them afterwards isn't. Consider it a Christmas present!

As we head down the home stretch (answers to be posted either this weekend or early next due to my schedule preventing anytime sooner), a few comments:

1-1: The subject of much discussion indeed! Has yet to be precisely identified however. Many have come close, though.

1-2: Interesting responses, and somebody is closer than they realize.

1-3: THIS is looking like the one that is going to really raise eyebrows when the answer is revealed!

1-10: If you're getting the Atavistic reissue of the Baby Dodds Folkways material, you're getting some superb music, but you won't be getting this cut.

2-1: I'm pretty sure that the electronic effects on the sax are all post-production (ie - added after the fact). If they turn you off, try listening to the performance and blocking them out. Easier said than done, I know, but there's some pretty unique stuff going on here, I think, stuff that the effects might distract some listeners from. Or not! But one person has hit the nail on the head EXACTLY, albeit without being able to offer any specifics. Go figure!

2-9: Not Rollins. I doubt that anybody will get this unless they have or have heard the record, which is pretty darn obscure. But it is a group of players that

I'm going to solicit commentary about from those who heard them first-hand once the answers are revealed, because it's a fascinating group made up of fascinating individuals, the kind of group (and music, and history) that boards like this were made to hip people to. Never heard of them? You will soon enough! And some of you HAVE heard (or heard of) of the drummer in other contexts years after this recording...

2-11: Included entirely for the message of the lyrics as it pertains to the many facets of jazz, in case anybody's wondering why it's here. That and the fact that I like it! Not even REMOTELY Zappa, Although...there is a indirect link to him vis-a-vis the production. But mainly, it's the truth of the lyrics as it pertains to life (and therefore music) that is why it was included.

That's all!

[chuckyd4]

1-10: If you're getting the Atavistic reissue of the Baby Dodds Folkways material, you're getting some superb music, but you won't be getting this cut.

Wow... that is pretty embarrassing. You listen to a record 30 times a day, think you really know the music... this was one of the only cuts I was sure I had down exactly. I was even ready to tell you the name of the track.

Jeez... sorry if that was hard to understand - I had a foot shoved ankle-deep in my mouth.

Anyway, the Dodds reissue is great; thanks for the compliment, Tom!

[Nate Dorward]

2-9: Not Rollins. I doubt that anybody will get this unless they have or have heard the record, which is pretty darn obscure. But it is a group of players that I'm going to solicit commentary about from those who heard them first-hand once the answers are revealed, because it's a fascinating group made up of fascinating individuals, the kind of group (and music, and history) that boards like this were made to hip people to. Never heard of them? You will soon enough! And some of you HAVE heard (or heard of) of the drummer in other contexts years after this recording...

Yes will be interested to hear what this track is as it's extremely good. I was wondering about the Rollins i.d. simply because the particular album many people have pointed to, with Rollins, Grimes & La Roca, is way too early for this track--it dates from 1959, but it seems clear to me that (1) the track shows evidence of a serious absorption of Ornette Coleman's music, which would have been impossible in 1959 when Ornette hadn't even yet recorded all his classic albums for Atlantic; (2) the bass solo on the track seems to me too out-there for 1959.

[catesta]

Is anyone else having a difficult time to "get into" these discussions? I continually have to take a look at my own comments to recall the actual track on which comments are being made.

Yes.

I'm still trying to formulate an opinion of track one of the first disc.

I have to admit I'm really looking forward to the answers.

[Jim R]

2-11: Included entirely for the message of the lyrics as it pertains to the many facets of jazz, in case anybody's wondering why it's here.

Lyrics? On disc 2, track 11?

[chuckyd4]

2-9: a fascinating group made up of fascinating individuals, the kind of group (and music, and history) that boards like this were made to hip people to. Never heard of them? You will soon enough! And some of you HAVE heard (or heard of) of the drummer in other contexts years after this recording...

Did you smack us with some of that jive-ass Crouch cat? It's just a weird enough guess to be possible.

[randyhersom]

2-9: Not Rollins. I doubt that anybody will get this unless they have or have heard the record, which is pretty darn obscure. But it is a group of players that

I'm going to solicit commentary about from those who heard them first-hand once the answers are revealed, because it's a fascinating group made up of fascinating individuals, the kind of group (and music, and history) that boards like this were made to hip people to. Never heard of them? You will soon enough! And some of you HAVE heard (or heard of) of the drummer in other contexts years after this recording...

Even more obscure than, say, The Fringe, George Garzone's longtime group?

[Tom Storer]

1-10: If you're getting the Atavistic reissue of the Baby Dodds Folkways material, you're getting some superb music, but you won't be getting this cut.

Wow... that is pretty embarrassing. You listen to a record 30 times a day, think you really know the music... this was one of the only cuts I was sure I had down exactly. I was even ready to tell you the name of the track.

You may not have had the name of the track right, chuckyd, but you'd probably have been right in most other particulars.

See these sites:

the record

UK site to order it

US site to order it

[BeBop]

I’m naked. (See picture on ‘show yer face’ thread.)

The following comments are prepared during first listen through of Disc #1. I haven’t read anyone’s comments and don’t have an internet connection as I write. Prepare for stream-of-consciousness.

(What's the old expression - better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought stupid than to open it and remove all doubt?)

1:1A What is this, Andre Previn or something? That’s not a put-down, but the pianist seems to touch the styles of several others, but never digs below the surface. A little lite-stride, some slightly more bombastic stuff, but defused. The range hints at Jaki Byard, but the depth and soul just ain’t there. Unsatisfying. To be fair about it, I suppose this isn’t supposed to be particularly deep stuff. And so, the butterfly flits from flower to flower.

1:1B Fine band section. Definitely that clean new-lion sound. I actually like the tenor player. Pushing the boundaries a bit, but still solidly grounded. Harmonically interesting, with adequate rhythmic variation. Never loses the underlying structure of the tune. On my cheapie headphones and walkman, I can’t tell whether it’s a trumpet or flugelhorn. Reminds me of Tom Harrell, at least the TH of 20 years ago. Assume it’s the same pianist. A bit of McCoy, some Chick (?), touches of Bud, some short, choppy runs that seemed clichéd by the conclusion of his/her solo. (Please accept future uses of ‘he’ and ‘he or she’.) Is the whole band actually in the studio together?

1:2 This is definitely fun stuff. But there’s something about it that I don’t buy. Like Al Jolson, I’m not convinced it’s what it purports. It doesn’t sound like an old recording – the surface noise is too even. It sounds like ‘jungle music’ – excuse the expression – as reproduced by someone from Manhattan. But nice.

1:3 Nice trumpet solo. I really appreciate a guy who can use the lower- and middle range of the horn effectively, and doesn’t feel a need to Maynard. The sax player, like the trumpet player I’m certain I know, but I can’t conjure up a name. (The saxist is particularly familiar.) The group overall sounds like a lab band; not a college jazz band – too polished for any I know, even Leon Breeden’s. If you told me that this was actually one of Maynard’s bands from the sixties, I would believe it.

1:4 Two notes in, it sounds like the first Buddy Rich band I ever heard (1977). After about eight bars, I’m inclined to change my guess to Woody Herman of approximately the same, or slightly earlier vintage. I’ve got a couple albums – The Raven? Jazz Hoot? Giant Steps? Around and after the Bill Chase era. Tom Anastasio. Clarinet sounds like an aging Herman.

1:5 I only enjoy the top 1% of vocalists; this singer ain’t in this category. I suspect she is a Dinah fan; she seems to be shooting for Dinah’s early tone and approach in the early going. <<skip>>

1:6 Seems like this is a Rosemary Clooney song, though I wouldn’t know Clooney from a hole in the ground. (See 1:5) Gotta get that syrup taste out of my mouth. <<skip>>

1:7 Not sure what to make of the little snippet of Monk from the alto. I guess he’s hip. Dude. Little Rootie Tootie, is it? Oh I see, that’s the song. (I warned you this would be stream-of-consciousness; no backspacing.) I feel like this is one of those Concord duo series things at Maybeck. I don’t know why.

1:8 YES! Probably my favorite living musician and one of the greatest human beings I’ve met. One of those Muse LPs (Never Again?) from the early 1970s, as I recall. Secret Love. Tear it up, Moody. Need to hear the organ on a real stereo. Mickey Tucker, I think it was. Freedom Jazz Dance on the same album just rips. Not surprised to hear this on BFT#4 as Jsngry had echoed my love for this era of Moody’s work on some thread or another. I heard this was coming out on a CD ‘bout now. Buy it.

1:9 Ronald Shannon Jackson? I heard this once upon a time and place, but can’t place it now.

1:10 Anyone know where I can pick up the Baby Laurence “Jazz Hoofer” video?

1:11 Laugh or cry? I’m not sure. The trouble of hindsight.

1:12 Got that Mingus feel, for sure. But I can’t say I’ve heard this one before. Eric? I’ll shoot myself when I remember the name of the trumpet player.

1:13 Stan? No Zoot. Damn, this ain’t fun no more. I’m sure I know the alto player – not quite Phil, or maybe. What’s this, some Woody Herman band reunion? Nah, that doesn’t quite sound like Woody, but it could be. Arrrghhhh, aural/mental burnout.

1:14 Too many “Lester People” around (to use the term employed by a Bay Area DJ many years ago for Pres disciples). This sounds a little less pure, but not as harmonically ambitious as, say Warne Marsh, but he reminds me of…Paul Desmond. And the guitarist – Billy Bauer? Nah, I’m an idiot. What is this a Brubeck group and Desmond hawked his alto and Dave toppled backward off the stage? Or my walkman is playing sh*t with my mind. Wait, there is a piano. Could be a heavily sedated Brubeck. Definitely a drummer Brubeck would have used.

1:15 I Know That You Know, but I just don’t know a damn thing anymore. An Earl Hines-influenced piano. With, what, some kind of bongos? Lionel Hampton? Hines?

SHOOT ME NOW. Even if I totally screwed up, at least I restrained myself from reading anyone else’s comments first or doing any research, other than in the dark recesses of my mind – which was apparently on recess.

[JSngry]

2-11: Included entirely for the message of the lyrics as it pertains to the many facets of jazz, in case anybody's wondering why it's here.

Lyrics? On disc 2, track 11?

My bad. 2-10!

[JSngry]

2-9: Not Rollins. I doubt that anybody will get this unless they have or have heard the record, which is pretty darn obscure. But it is a group of players that

I'm going to solicit commentary about from those who heard them first-hand once the answers are revealed, because it's a fascinating group made up of fascinating individuals, the kind of group (and music, and history) that boards like this were made to hip people to. Never heard of them? You will soon enough! And some of you HAVE heard (or heard of) of the drummer in other contexts years after this recording...

Even more obscure than, say, The Fringe, George Garzone's longtime group?

OH yeah.

[mmilovan]

So, this is already 13th page of our test, and many people already guessed things. I will write down things I really know (I will be discreet as much as I can), but there are huge amount of material that sounds new to me, so I guess I can be wrong with most of it.

Disc 1

1. It is very interesting piano playing. Still, I don't have clue what it is.

2. Another good piano work, but...?

3. This is West Coast like arrangement, so it can be some of them bands worked there. Trumpet player with his staccato phrasing reminds somewhat to Roy Eldridge, but probably he is not the player here. Altoist has that very interesting tone, it can be Lee Konitz, I am not sure.

4. Well, this is interesting! Trumpet player with plunger reminds to Cootie Williams, trombone is like Lawrence Brown, there is pretty fast baritone player, and awful fuzzed guitar that I dislike. And also clarinet that reminds me to pre bop clarinetists. And all those high notes like Cat Anderson used to play. All suggest deepest respect to Ellington's sound, I am interested what this could be.

5. "That's My Desire", don't like the vocal. Arrangement reminds to Count Basie post war Hefti's things but it can be Quincy Jones. Alto player reminds to Marshal Royal... probably it is not. And, piano sounds like no Basie at all.

6. And this is beautiful vocal done by... Helen Merrill, no...??? Beautiful voice, good tune and string support done well. Fine take, I like it. It is not jazz at all, but easy listening music.

7. Interesting playing, I don't have the idea...

8. "Perfect Love", tenor has that fat, strong tone, with bop inflections... like some Texas tenors. I don't know, it can be Jaws, but he was a bit harder with all that growl and other effects. Jacquett, Arnet Cobb maybe, or Gene Amons... I don't think it is Stitt.

9. ?

10. It is legendary Baby Dodds, you can't be wrong! No? Zutty Singleton has that similar pre Walter Johnson/Jo Jones feeling for using cymbals, but art of woodblocks can only be attribute to Dodds. If it is not, than nothing...

This is the way he played those drums behind Louis Hot Fives and Sevens.

I know - IT IS MAX ROACH! :)

It can be Sidney Bechet, he played drums also in that style.

11. Very early WWI recording, or recreation of that period. Acoustically it must be recorded during that period. Oh my, what it is, anyway?

12. Lester Bowie? It is not Ornette, hmmm... that free jazz driving me nuts to guess.

13. Pefect swing band. Late live Woody Herman? Chart is good written and solos by tenor, alto and clarinet reminds to Woody's Herds.

Alto - Art Pepper? Tenor... No it is not Zoot, nor it is Getz. Jimmy Giuffrie or Serge Chaloff, maybe, but audibly it is not from 1950-55 period, so - damn trick question!!! Sax lines recreates that four brothers sound, on clarinet it can be Woody...

14. (one answer from member of "Lester People" fan club) "Almost Like...", of course. And almost like Pres! Lester recorded the same tune for Verve two times - with Peterson and in 1959 with french musicians.

Great standard, and great tenor, if I may say. All I know it is NOT Getz - or maybe he is drunk to death (no fast passages), nor Zoot (no specific tone and tembre), nor Quinichette (no specific triplets and licks)! It can be Wardell or Marsh, maybe. No, Marsh had that advanced harmonic sense.

The tone of guitar player is the same as for Clifford Brown/Sarah Vaughan session, and piano is good - it easily can be John Lewis. The guitar didn't do anything to me, there were more capable players than this one. Well, this is hard guessing game...

Another thing, it clicked right now: I am almost certain that according to way drummer answer in trade fours with piano and sax it is - Papa Jo, or someone who emulates him (Gus Johnson). And of course, both of them recorded with Pres in early 1950's. Interesting.

15. How strange people today don't recognize "Bill Evans of the Swing Era" on piano, with his old friend (from the same era), probably supported with the same musicians that recorded similar album with Dex Gordon. It can be Candido on conga and George Divivier on bass. I hate that electrically amplified bass sound (although I like Divivier), it is awful recorded, with vibraphone sounded like poor children's metalophone. Probably it was recorded around 1975., I KNOW THAT I don't KNOW on what album it is. Two old friends recorded this dumb tune back around 1939, with great John Kirby on bass.

I listened more closely to the track. It can be Earl Hines, also! No smooth sound in bass left hand lines Willson is connected with. Jim, these are perfect questions that lead to maddnes.

Anyway, I like this type of music.

Disc 2

1. Fusion.

2. Ornette Coleman?

3. Mid seventies disco... George Benson, maybe

4. ?

5. This is trick question. Two of the musicians are Bud Freeman and P. W. Russell, you can recognize them immediately. But, the same group recorded that kind of material with Buck Clayton, Vic Dickenson and Jo Jones (Basie stars that played Dixieland!!! that was what they wanted to hear from those giants... bloody producers... ) in Boston. This can be form the same or similar occasion. Mid to late 1950's. I dislike the idea of putting musicans from one school to play the material from the other (such as in Boston example), but anyway, I like the overall sound on this track.

6. Rather interesting tenor but what it can be?

7. ?

8. Of course, it is great Holy Man with his Unholy presidential sideman! It is live recorded (broadcast) during less known, officially not recorded 1943-44 period, and despite I do not own exact broadcast the title can probably be something like "Kansas City Stride" or anything like that. (Agustin, location can be Sherman Hotel, and Sweets drunk 2 beers already :) ) These are rare recordings, and not reissued properly until today.

Jim, many thanks for bringing these rare of them rarest gems to all of us. Unholy throws perfectly constructed extended solo (oh man, THOSE free licks - it is free jazz, yes, people free jazz at his prime early form) that was amazing then. And it is amazing today as well!

9. Not Rollins... ???

10. It is some old singer singing new stuff.

11. ?

Again, Jim, many thanks for all this good music you brought to our community.

Edited December 16, 2003 by mmilovan

[mikeweil]

the record

Oh geez! Another one to get .... The Danny Barker cuts on this may sound very good, too.

[paul secor]

1-14 somehow reminds me of the John Lewis / Bill Perkins collaboration with Chico Hamilton and Jim Hall, this is not from that Pacific Jazz disc

If you have the Lewis/Perkins, listen again.

[paul secor]

2-11: Included entirely for the message of the lyrics as it pertains to the many facets of jazz, in case anybody's wondering why it's here. That and the fact that I like it!    Not even REMOTELY Zappa, Although...there is a indirect link to him vis-a-vis the production. But mainly, it's the truth of the lyrics as it pertains to life (and therefore music) that is why it was included.

That's all!

Was J.G.W. associated with Zappa? According to a friend who has the recent reissue, that's who the producer is. Obviously, I'm not a Zappa afficianado.

[EKE BBB]

8. Of course, it is great Holy Man with his Unholy presidential sideman! It is live recorded (broadcast) during less known, officially not recorded 1943-44 period, and despite I do not own exact broadcast the title can probably be something like "Kansas City Stride" or anything like that. (Agustin, location can be Sherman Hotel, and Sweets drunk 2 beers already :) )

But you don´t know the name of Eli Robinson´s grandmother???

[mikeweil]

1-14 somehow reminds me of the John Lewis / Bill Perkins collaboration with Chico Hamilton and Jim Hall, this is not from that Pacific Jazz disc

If you have the Lewis/Perkins, listen again.

I did!

What threw me was the sound. Jim's LP copy has remarkably different sound, with more reverb than the CD (from the first batch of Pacific Jazz reissues Cuscuna did) I own.

But I would have expected he included some Bill Perkins! I remember I didn't like Chico's drum breaks from the first time I heard this.

... so I was closer than I thought. And my personal rule for these tests is confirmed: There is always one item from my collection I only recognize after several attempts!

Edited December 16, 2003 by mikeweil

[mikeweil]

One request, please -

If you know exactly what a cut is, please don't reveal it directly here. Post an AMG link or something like that. Let's keep the guessing, and therefore the thinking and the discussing, going as long as possible. If you know who some of the artist(s) are, but not the specific album, fine, throw it on out there. What I'm talking about is the EXACT revealing of a cut. Be discreet, ok?

I hope I didn't go too far - I'm afraid I did not read that initial post carefully enough - I'll do better next time. My apologies, if appropriate.