McCoy with Trane in 1965

[Guy Berger]

I was reading a review by someone whose tastes I respect regarding several 1965 live Trane recordings in which he sharply criticized McCoy Tyner's playing. I guess I would concede that in some of the recordings, particularly those recorded late in 1965 with added horns, McCoy sounds a little out of place. But on the quartet recordings - all the way through Sun Ship, which pretty much pushed the quartet into full-blown free blowing territory, and McCoy plays GREAT here. Furthermore, a fair amount of McCoy's solo work on Milestone picks up where the 1965 quartet stopped. So to me this seems like a fundamental misunderstanding.

Any other opinions? I feel like we may have discussed this in the past, but couldn't find anything to confirm.

[Chuck Nessa]

I think McCoy was struggling to keep up at the time and absorbed the message after the fact. He never damages anything but the "later McCoy" would have coped differently.

[Larry Kart]

I think McCoy was struggling to keep up at the time and absorbed the message after the fact. He never damages anything but the "later McCoy" would have coped differently.

Was listening a few weeks ago to "Meditations" and felt in particular that McCoy's long solo on "Consequences" sounded like (in the words of Dave Liebman) "a mini-twentieth century piano concerto" -- which Liebman meant as praise, but I think it's pretty turgid-Romantic. I prefer Alice Coltrane's approach to playing with (or behind) late Trane.

[Michael Weiss]

I think McCoy left at exactly the right time. And he played his ass off and fit in perfectly with what Trane was doing right up to the time he left. Meditations, Live at the Half Note, Live in Seattle, all of it. McCoy is totally attuned to Trane's multi-tonality, and is probably the only pianist who could fit in that well. Struggling to keep up????

[Chuck Nessa]

Agree.

[Larry Kart]

I think McCoy left at exactly the right time. And he played his ass off and fit in perfectly with what Trane was doing right up to the time he left. Meditations, Live at the Half Note, Live in Seattle, all of it. McCoy is totally attuned to Trane's multi-tonality, and is probably the only pianist who could fit in that well. Struggling to keep up????

If "Interstellar Space" and the last quartet recordings were where Trane was headed -- and not only chronology but also achievement (IMO) suggest that that was the case -- I wouldn't say "struggling to keep up" but "increasingly on different pages." Likewise with Elvin and Trane. Also, wasn't that the conclusion that all parties reached?

[JSngry]

No problems for me w/the straight quartet stuff, but when Pharoah came in, that's when "increasingly on different pages" comes into play. Once those pages start getting written, yeah, give me Alice. But as long as it was just Trane, Garrison, & Elvin, make mine McCoy, please. I don't think Alice heard the rhythm like McCoy did, and as long as Elvin was driving that particular bus, that was what fit best.

But as soon as Pharoah came on, that bus started going somewhere else, and once Rashied came on, it had its driver.

[Guy Berger]

No problems for me w/the straight quartet stuff, but when Pharoah came in, that's when "increasingly on different pages" comes into play. Once those pages start getting written, yeah, give me Alice. But as long as it was just Trane, Garrison, & Elvin, make mine McCoy, please. I don't think Alice heard the rhythm like McCoy did, and as long as Elvin was driving that particular bus, that was what fit best.

Yeah def. I just don't understand how someone can listen to Sun Ship and deny that McCoy is totally in tune with this music.

[king ubu]

"Sun Ship" to me is a stunning and beautiful album, among the most beautiful in Trane's output, among the most beautiful ever, actually! It's "mellow" by comparison with the Seattle and other stuff w/Sanders added, and indeed Tyner is perfect there, to my ears!