Lee Konitz and Lorraine Gordon

[Hardbopjazz]

Last night, January 19th, I went to the Vanguard to catch Lee Konitz's trio. Lee was wonderful. Around 55 minutes into the set, Lee said that was all for the set. As the band walked off the stage, Lorraine, jumped up and yelled, "you owe me 15 minutes. Get back up there and play! I don't pay you to sit in the back." Lee and the band returned to the stage and played another number. When the band finished that tune, Lee asked Lorraine if that was good enough. She didn't answer him, so Lee started to play one more number, "Sweet Lorraine."

Lorraine, can be a ball buster, but this is all part of the allure of the Village Vanguard.

One note, when Lee started to play "Sweet Lorraine" the pianist sat out because he didn't know the changes. That is such a common standard, how could you not know the changes to that tune?

[AllenLowe]

it's not really played much anymore; and though the changes are not difficult, they don't follow the usual patterns and so a pianist might be hesitant to just jump in. Also it's very possible that if he or she was young enough they just might not know the tune. It has actually never been commonly played as part of the jazz repertoire, even in my 25 years or so of public performance (though I used to call it all the time and my favorite version was Wardell Gray's) -

Edited January 20, 2010 by AllenLowe

[MartyJazz]

Last night, January 19th, I went to the Vanguard to catch Lee Konitz's trio. Lee was wonderful. Around 55 minutes into the set, Lee said that was all for the set. As the band walked off the stage, Lorraine, jumped up and yelled, "you owe me 15 minutes. Get back up there and play! I don't pay you to sit in the back." Lee and the band returned to the stage and played another number. When the band finished that tune, Lee asked Lorraine if that was good enough. She didn't answer him, so Lee started to play one more number, "Sweet Lorraine."

Lorraine, can be a ball buster, but this is all part of the allure of the Village Vanguard.

One note, when Lee started to play "Sweet Lorraine" the pianist sat out because he didn't know the changes. That is such a common standard, how could you not know the changes to that tune?

Lee is pushing 83, if not already there. For Lorraine to do what you say she did, sounds pretty harsh. Man played for nearly an hour, what's wrong with that? How many sets on a weekday night?

[kh1958]

They have two sets a night most of the time now.

[AllenLowe]

if was a lousy thing for her to do, but Lee must have felt, given their longstanding relationship, that he could live with it. and that's Lorraine, though on the scale of weirdness for her, it's probably at the very low end -

[Hardbopjazz]

Last night, January 19th, I went to the Vanguard to catch Lee Konitz's trio. Lee was wonderful. Around 55 minutes into the set, Lee said that was all for the set. As the band walked off the stage, Lorraine, jumped up and yelled, "you owe me 15 minutes. Get back up there and play! I don't pay you to sit in the back." Lee and the band returned to the stage and played another number. When the band finished that tune, Lee asked Lorraine if that was good enough. She didn't answer him, so Lee started to play one more number, "Sweet Lorraine."

Lorraine, can be a ball buster, but this is all part of the allure of the Village Vanguard.

One note, when Lee started to play "Sweet Lorraine" the pianist sat out because he didn't know the changes. That is such a common standard, how could you not know the changes to that tune?

Lee is pushing 83, if not already there. For Lorraine to do what you say she did, sounds pretty harsh. Man played for nearly an hour, what's wrong with that? How many sets on a weekday night?

Marty, she did. It was so so rude, but she has done similar acts in the past. Lee is 82 or 83. He even sat on a chair for part of the set.

When I saw Cecil Taylor at the Vanguard I believe in December 2008, the first set was about 50 minutes long. As Cecil and Tony Oxley walked off, she said if you want to play here again, you better do longer sets. The second set was a little longer, more like 60 minutes. Cecil hasn't played there since. But it makes me wonder if what she said has been why Cecil hasn't played there again.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Hardbopjazz

[paul secor]

Never realized that musicians playing live gigs were considered hourly wage earners. Guess there's a lot about the music biz that I don't know.

Reminds me of the deal where some listeners feel they're cheated if they don't get a certain amount of playing time on a recording, rather than appreciating what's there to hear.

Ms Gordon sounds like a bitch and a half - at least judging from this story.

Last night, January 19th, I went to the Vanguard to catch Lee Konitz's trio. Lee was wonderful. Around 55 minutes into the set, Lee said that was all for the set. As the band walked off the stage, Lorraine, jumped up and yelled, "you owe me 15 minutes. Get back up there and play! I don't pay you to sit in the back." Lee and the band returned to the stage and played another number. When the band finished that tune, Lee asked Lorraine if that was good enough. She didn't answer him, so Lee started to play one more number, "Sweet Lorraine."

Lorraine, can be a ball buster, but this is all part of the allure of the Village Vanguard.

One note, when Lee started to play "Sweet Lorraine" the pianist sat out because he didn't know the changes. That is such a common standard, how could you not know the changes to that tune?

Lee is pushing 83, if not already there. For Lorraine to do what you say she did, sounds pretty harsh. Man played for nearly an hour, what's wrong with that? How many sets on a weekday night?

Marty, she did. It was so so rude, but she has done similar acts in the past. Lee is 82 or 83. He even sat on a chair for part of the set.

When I saw Cecil Taylor at the Vanguard I believe in December 2008, the first set was about 50 minutes long. As Cecil and Tony Oxley walked off, she said if you want to play here again, you better longer sets. The second set was a little longer, more like 60 minutes.

Cecil should have played a two hour set. That might have pissed her off in another way.

[Hardbopjazz]

Never realized that musicians playing live gigs were considered hourly wage earners. Guess there's a lot about the music biz that I don't know.

Reminds me of the deal where some listeners feel they're cheated if they don't get a certain amount of playing time on a recording, rather than appreciating what's there to hear.

Ms Gordon sounds like a bitch and a half - at least judging from this story.

Last night, January 19th, I went to the Vanguard to catch Lee Konitz's trio. Lee was wonderful. Around 55 minutes into the set, Lee said that was all for the set. As the band walked off the stage, Lorraine, jumped up and yelled, "you owe me 15 minutes. Get back up there and play! I don't pay you to sit in the back." Lee and the band returned to the stage and played another number. When the band finished that tune, Lee asked Lorraine if that was good enough. She didn't answer him, so Lee started to play one more number, "Sweet Lorraine."

Lorraine, can be a ball buster, but this is all part of the allure of the Village Vanguard.

One note, when Lee started to play "Sweet Lorraine" the pianist sat out because he didn't know the changes. That is such a common standard, how could you not know the changes to that tune?

Lee is pushing 83, if not already there. For Lorraine to do what you say she did, sounds pretty harsh. Man played for nearly an hour, what's wrong with that? How many sets on a weekday night?

Marty, she did. It was so so rude, but she has done similar acts in the past. Lee is 82 or 83. He even sat on a chair for part of the set.

When I saw Cecil Taylor at the Vanguard I believe in December 2008, the first set was about 50 minutes long. As Cecil and Tony Oxley walked off, she said if you want to play here again, you better longer sets. The second set was a little longer, more like 60 minutes.

Cecil should have played a two hour set. That might have pissed her off in another way.

[J.A.W.]

Lee Konitz was born on October 13, 1927, so he's now 82.

Who were his sidemen on this date?

[AllenLowe]

just back to Lorraine - I used to see her frequently in the late '70s when Jabbo was still around. These do sound like rude remarks, but, that's Lorraine, and, especially with Cecil, who knows what else was going on. And if Konitz took it with good humor, he may understand that she's just like that, and may not feel it's a personal affront.

The Vanguard is a club that pays people fairly and has treated musicians well - and sometimes we don't see the other side, of the problems club owners have with retention of audiences, etc - so maybe she was just keeping an eye out for patrons' rights, as well.

[Hardbopjazz]

Lee Konitz was born on October 13, 1927, so he's now 82.

Who were his sidemen on this date?

Dan Tepfer-p, Matt Wilson-d

just back to Lorraine - I used to see her frequently in the late '70s when Jabbo was still around. These do sound like rude remarks, but, that's Lorraine, and, especially with Cecil, who knows what else was going on. And if Konitz took it with good humor, he may understand that she's just like that, and may not feel it's a personal affront.

The Vanguard is a club that pays people fairly and has treated musicians well - and sometimes we don't see the other side, of the problems club owners have with retention of audiences, etc - so maybe she was just keeping an eye out for patrons' rights, as well.

Lee did take it in stride. Plus as you stated, retention of audiences, the club was just about half filled last night. So this could have been why she was so quick to jump up and tell the band to get back up on the stage. The audience was asked to stay for the second set for just a additional $10.

[sonnymax]

Having managed a club in the eighties and performed in clubs before that, I can tell you that it's standard practice to agree on how many sets will be played and how long those sets will be. Written contracts always define these terms, although they may be modified by mutual agreement. That being said, I agree with other people's assessment of Lorraine's behavior.

[Brad]

That does sound a little over the top but I guess you have to consider the circumstances, the history, etc.

[blajay]

Lee Konitz was born on October 13, 1927, so he's now 82.

Who were his sidemen on this date?

Probably his mom, a doctor, and maybe his dad.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I've traveled to the Vanguard on several occasions and every time, I've tried to drag along a friend of mine who lives in the area. Every time I ask, he says, "I'm not going back to the Vanguard until the bitch dies".

Later,

Kevin

[Hardbopjazz]

Those that can't make the shows, WBGO.ORG will be broadcasting the first set tonight. 9PM.

[fkimbrough]

Lorraine employs rudeness on an equal opportunity basis - anyone who goes there regularly, or plays there, expects it and knows not to take it personally. Once I went there and sat near the bar beside an elderly lady who told me she's been going there since the early '60's, and that she always found Lorraine to be quite rude. She was wearing a little crepe scarf, which she removed, placing it on the banquette where we were seated. A moment later Lorraine marched over and yelled "Lady, could you please move your luggage"! Another time I ordered a beer from Micky, a bartender who's worked there since 1966....all I had on me was a 50 dollar bill, which he took and and gave me back change for a twenty. I called him over and explained the situation, to which he replied without missing a beat that I hadn't placed the bill on the bar like it was a fifty. I've got quite a few more too. If all the musicians who had a "Lorraine story" collaborated on a book, it would be very long, and funny as hell. Love that place! I'm going tonight - there will probably be another story to tell by the end of the night.

[marcello]

When Geoffrey Keezer was playing there with his trio a few years ago,( a fantastic set of music, by the way), Lorraine said something like "I don't like what you're playing! Why don't you play 'Body and Soul' !!" It was more nasty that I could write it here. She went on to disparage each member of the band, including their dress and whatnot.

Keezer said "Let me get this straight; you don't like my music and you don't like my band. Why am I even here?"

During the '70's, when I was there quite often, I never saw her there. Not once.

[Chuck Nessa]

During the '70's, when I was there quite often, I never saw her there. Not once.

My experience too. When Max was around, she wasn't.

[Peter Friedman]

Lee got yelled at for not playing a long enough set. A few years ago I was at a Jazz Party and the person who ran the event told a friend of mine he would not be inviting a musician/leader back again. The reason was that he played longer than he was scheduled to play.

i realize it was a different situation, but it strikes me as funny that you can get in trouble for playing too short a set and also for playing a bit too long a set.

[sidewinder]

Crikey, I find this story amazing. At 82-83 we are really lucky that Lee Konitz still does live gigs, never mind tour extensively, as he still does. Over the years, whether in Nth America or Europe one of the few people who I could guarantee there would be a good chance to see would be Lee - and he's always put in 100%. Glad to hear that he kept his cool.

Heck, he even appeared on that German MPS Tribute DVD I was watching the other night, enthusing about touring with Albert Mangelsdorff in the 60s and also in the 70s with Pastorius/Mouzon.

Edited January 21, 2010 by sidewinder

[Shrdlu]

Lol, she's just being a New Yorker. If she said that to me, I'd just laugh.

I don't mind feisty people at all. A lot of the best people in their fields are feisty or grumpy. There are one or two on this board.

In my case, you would have to interrupt because I played too long. But all tenor players are long-winded.

Lee's problem is that he plays alto.

[AllenLowe]

in the 70's Lorraine was around, but during the day - a few times I had to drop some stuff off for her (I had some tapes of Jabbo Smith that she wanted to hear) - she took care of day prep, if I recall c orrectly, as Max was already starting to decline.

but she's a character, and there's one hilarious story I've told in public once, but should not have - hopefully it's buried away from public access, though I'll tell it again the day AFTER she's six feet under (it came courtesy of Curley Russell) -

[Tom Storer]

Lee is pushing 83, if not already there. For Lorraine to do what you say she did, sounds pretty harsh.

From Lorraine's point of view, he's a youngster.

[Hardbopjazz]

in the 70's Lorraine was around, but during the day - a few times I had to drop some stuff off for her (I had some tapes of Jabbo Smith that she wanted to hear) - she took care of day prep, if I recall c orrectly, as Max was already starting to decline.

but she's a character, and there's one hilarious story I've told in public once, but should not have - hopefully it's buried away from public access, though I'll tell it again the day AFTER she's six feet under (it came courtesy of Curley Russell) -

You can always change the names to protect the incident and tell it anyway.