Chico Freeman

[Head Man]

"Chico Freeman to re-issue himself back catalog

During the upcoming weeks, Chico Freeman is about to put back on the market a large part of his back-catalog including the much sought after India Navigation LPs..

As an appetizer and during two weeks, radio.video.jazz gives away 16 Chico Freeman's Classics in 256 kbs.

You download them either at radio.video.jazz or at Chico Freeman on GetJuke"

Just seen this over at 'That Other Place" - does anyone know anything about what and how it will be made available? Surprisingly(?) there's no mention of it on Chico's website.

[Niko]

funny chico comes up now... wondered earlier today about that often read statement, that von freeman never got as famous as his son chico... i am sure this was true some point in the 80s (?)... being young, far outside the jazz world (and hanging out in this vonski-centric place): is this still a valid statement?

[felser]

funny chico comes up now... wondered earlier today about that often read statement, that von freeman never got as famous as his son chico... i am sure this was true some point in the 80s (?)... being young, far outside the jazz world (and hanging out in this vonski-centric place): is this still a valid statement?

Really good news. The India Navigation's are fine fine sets (as are the Contemporary's from the same period). Also, the Cecil McBee's from that period are prime C.Freeman.

@Niko - no, don't think so from where I sit. Von has gotten a lot of attention in recent years, and Chico seems largely forgotten after a couple decades of disappointing efforts. Never have understood what happened to him, as he started so majestically. Von and Chico are very different players, of course, and the times seem to have swung jazz tastes back towards Von to a degree. Von has always been lost on my ears, especially the later stuff, but YMMV.

[sonnymax]

I own almost all of Chico's recordings, except for the funky/world ones.

Somehow I overlooked this 1987 date for the Japanese Whynot label:

Chico Freeman Quintet Featuring Von Freeman / Lord Riff And Me (Whynot-Century 32ED5032)

Chico Freeman (ss,ts)

Von Freeman (ss,ts)

George Cables (p)

Cecil McBee (b)

Billy Hart (dr)

Recorded 10/13/87 in New York City

Tracks:

1 Blue Baby Do

2 Ballad for Aisha

3 Moments Notice

4 Motherless Child

5 Sneakin Peakin

6 I Fall in Love Too Easily

7 South Express

8 Vonce

9 Bye Bye Blackbird

[clifford_thornton]

I have a few things on India Navigation and that's about it. Enjoy his playing on those older sides but it's rarely mind-altering (for me).

[JSngry]

Yeah, I never really got all the buzz about Chico back in the day. A little of it, yeah. But...

[Hot Ptah]

I think that his playing with Jack DeJohnette was exciting. I remember a truly outstanding concert in Ann Arbor in January, 1981. A sample of Freeman with DeJohnette is found on "Tin Can Alley".

I think that his "Peaceful Heart Gentle Spirit" and "Spirit Sensitive" albums were excellent.

The rest of his India Navigations were quite good, in my opinion.

He was promising, and energetic, and could make good albums. Then he started making albums in the 1980s which I found not as interesting. But an early 1990s concert with the Leaders found him in top form, to my ears.

He made an awful smooth jazz album a few years ago, which I could not believe when I heard it.

[clifford_thornton]

Having never seen him play (he was making records before I was born), I can only vouch for experiencing things like "Morning Prayer" and "Chico," which are strong discs, nothing more and nothing less. It seems like the hype machine was behind him in a way that he couldn't quite match.

[BFrank]

The DeJohnette stuff is definitely good.

What I would REALLY like to see is a Cecil McBee Sextet album on Enja called "Compassion" w/Chico. I wonder if that's going to be available on his site.

[Head Man]

What I would REALLY like to see is a Cecil McBee Sextet album on Enja called "Compassion" w/Chico. I wonder if that's going to be available on his site.

Yes, I have this on vinyl and it's a lovely album. I wonder why it's never been re-issued on CD...or has it?

[AllenLowe]

not a good saxophone player. The branch fell too far from the tree. Like father, not like son.

a rolling stone gathered no moss in this case.

the heating system broke down.

The rain in Spain....

[Hot Ptah]

Having never seen him play (he was making records before I was born), I can only vouch for experiencing things like "Morning Prayer" and "Chico," which are strong discs, nothing more and nothing less. It seems like the hype machine was behind him in a way that he couldn't quite match.

From what I remember, there was not that much hype machine. India Navigation was a tiny, indie label. Chico Freeman was talked about by a relatively small circle of jazz fans as an interesting up and coming player, among other interesting up and coming players in the late 1970s. I do not recall any big label pushing his name or music out before the public. There was no press campaign or advertising campaign by anyone with money.

not a good saxophone player. The branch fell too far from the tree. Like father, not like son.

a rolling stone gathered no moss in this case.

the heating system broke down.

The rain in Spain....

That strikes me as a tad harsh, from what I remember of his live performances in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

[Tom Storer]

As for the early hype, I think in the late 70's he might have been on the rails to be the charismatic young jazz star backed by media and a major label. He sounded "jazzy" and did "the tradition" along with more modern stuff, he was handsome and easily won over audiences in concert with a friendly and playful stage presence, he had the dynastic thing going. But then Wynton came along and the spotlight, and major label attention, went to him.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Tom Storer

[clifford_thornton]

I think the pre-Wynton jazz hype machine, as I understand it, seemed a little more sensible for figures like Braxton or Blythe (who ended up on larger labels). Just my own opinion. I guess what I refer to has a little more traction the way Tom puts it.

[kh1958]

He sounds like a good player to me, if not as good as his father. I saw him four of five years ago, with Geri Allen, Andrew Cyrille and Richard Davis. The music was enjoyable and he held his own in this fine company.

[AllenLowe]

that dog won't hunt....

allright, enough, sorry - I will say that Chico always struck me as the kind of "new jazz" player that the jazz conservatives were always complaining about - one who really was not technically capable on his horn, not good at things like chord changes when he tried, not good at more open forms. Basically one who had learned a little and had faked a lot.

He also once almost got into a fight with a very great alto player (who shall remain nameless) - they were playing together in a band (don't remember what band) and they were playing changes, and this alto player, who is not exactly musically conservative, but who leans toward the Konitz/Marsh progressive school (though his own playing is very personal) was getting so annoyed at Chico's bad playing that he started complaining audibly. No brawl broke out, but apparently it was touch and go for a while -

and I gotta admit that the first time I heard Chico, not knowing who he was, on an LP, I though it was a student musician.

Edited January 19, 2010 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

"not technically capable on his horn, not good at things like chord changes when he tried, not good at more open forms..."

That is a little harsh. The guy was thrust into the spotlight too early, imo, and was still developing when that happened. He definitely could have used more seasoning before coming out, but there were some skills present, and they developed as he went along. I don't think he ever had it in him to become a "giant", but he certainly became a notch or three better than "student" musician a few years after his debut. Problem is, he made a fair amount of records and got a lot of press before he got there...

[Hot Ptah]

I do not think that Chico Freeman is at the level of many widely acknowledged jazz masters. However, his playing of tenor saxophone, flute, bass clarinet and soprano saxophone on just three albums, "Spirit Sensitive", "Peaceful Heart Gentle Spirit", and DeJohnette's "Tin Can Alley", are to my ears far above student musician status. I have heard other albums by him which strike me as less distinctive than those three.

It is interesting to me that he was chosen for the Leaders group, which consisted of Lester Bowie, Arthur Blythe, Freeman, Kirk Lightsey, Cecil McBee and Don Moye. I was told by a musician who was considered for that group but passed over, that each musician was chosen with some care for that group, among many who wanted to join on each instrument.

[AllenLowe]

not a smear, KH1957, if I give reasons for feeling the way I do. A smear is calling my opinion a smear without any evidence that it is a smear.

good work, making this musical disagreement into a personal attack.

whoops - did you delete? Or am I having another LSD flashback?

well, not sure what's happening or if I'm in another dimension - but I also remember the recording he made with his dad, I think in NYC; he was just not a good and convincing player.

Edited January 19, 2010 by AllenLowe

[Hot Ptah]

One point which may be of interest considering how this discussion has progressed. In April, 1982, I reviewed the Wynton Marsalis Quintet's concert for a student newspaper, and spent about 30 minutes talking to Wynton for a background interview. He commented that he had not enjoyed playing on Chico Freeman's "Destiny's Dance" LP, because "Freeman didn't know the changes to his own songs."

So no less an authority than Wynton Marsalis agrees with Allen's points.

[clifford_thornton]

Somebody said that about Ornette too, am I right? Of course, they were missing Ornette's point entirely...

[AllenLowe]

well -

1) I would say great minds think alike, but that would be problematic for me given Wynton and my former disagreements

2) what unattributed source did I use, KH1956, to denigrate Chico? The only unattributed source was that alto player, and that story was far from a smear, only pointed out that someone besides myself had problems with his playing - you need to pay attention to language, especially as libel is actionable and I am sick of being mis-characterized by people who simply don't agree with me. I find it offensive.

3) CLiff - it's not the same as with Ornette, as I am reasonably certain that, when Wynton said that, he was listening to a tune that had actual chord changes written by Chico -

4) As I type this I am on Chico's web site watching him in a video, performing Lonnie's Lament. It just doesn't make it - there's a difference between mannerism and style, and I find him to be mostly mannerism. It's like someone playing in a circle, coming back to himself, and not really having done enough in the process to have earned the right to repeat himself.

Edited January 19, 2010 by AllenLowe

[Chuck Nessa]

Chico's a guy trying to make a living. He's put himself out there as a musician open to critics and fans. Some I like ok, some seems silly.

Pick and choose.

YMMV.

[sonnymax]

...I am sick of being mis-characterized by people who simply don't agree with me. I find it offensive...

Perhaps if you didn't express yourself in such an aggressive manner, you wouldn't receive this kind of reaction so often. Personally, I like your contributions, but your penchant for the abrasive is off-putting at times.

[papsrus]

I didn't see anything 'aggressive' in here.

Not directing this at you, sonnymax, cause I think you're giving an honest view, but would people rather have Allen -- or anyone -- whitewash his views, or not comment at all, so as not to offend?

I wouldn't.

As to Freeman's playing, I will have to listen again more closely to The Leaders, but I thought the playing there was uniformly great.