I'm pretty sure I brought this up here before....

[Hardbopjazz]

Could this person really posses this concert with Trane, Wes and Dolphy? I have in the past sent emails but I never received a reply from this person. It is like the mythical Bigfoot. There are those that believe and then the are those of us that are sane.

Also, who really was the top bill, Coltrane or Wes?

,

web site

John Coltrane 09/22/61

My Favourite Things

Naima

So What? >

Impressions

John Coltrane- tenor sax, soprano sax

McCoy Tyner- piano

Reggie Workman- bass

Elvin Jones- drums

Eric Dolphy- clarinet, bass clarinet

Wes Montgomety- guitar

Edited January 4, 2010 by Hardbopjazz

[Guy Berger]

I've never seen this recording circulating.

The lineup seems impressive on paper but I'm not sure Montgomery could hang in this company...

Could this person really posses this concert with Trane, Wes and Dolphy? I have in the past sent emails but I never received a reply from this person. It is like the mythical Bigfoot. There are those that believe and then the are those of us that are sane.

Also, who really was the top bill, Coltrane or Wes?

,

web site

John Coltrane 09/22/61

My Favourite Things

Naima

So What? >

Impressions

John Coltrane- tenor sax, soprano sax

McCoy Tyner- piano

Reggie Workman- bass

Elvin Jones- drums

Eric Dolphy- clarinet, bass clarinet

Wes Montgomety- guitar

[John L]

I don't know about this concert in particular, but there indeed exist tapes of this sextet from California in 1961, Coltrane was the top bill. He hired Wes Montgomery for the band when they went to California. Thus, this was not just a one-shot deal. This sextet was Coltrane's working band at the time.

When these tapes were discovered about a decade ago, the owner (Coltrane family?) tried to negotiate a deal for their release. No company would pay much for the copyright, however. Part of the problem, I heard, was that the sound quality is not that good. Since then, it appears that the owners are just sitting on the tapes in anticipation of a possible deal in the future.

I would love to hear the tapes.

[jazzbo]

I have a feeling Wes hung in there quite well for those shows! Maybe we'll find out one day.

[Teasing the Korean]

I have a feeling Wes hung in there quite well for those shows!

Agreed.

[Hardbopjazz]

I have a feeling Wes hung in there quite well for those shows! Maybe we'll find out one day.

Without a doubt. Wes was the all time master on the guitar. I can't imagine him having any problems keeping up with the band.

[Guy Berger]

I have a feeling Wes hung in there quite well for those shows! Maybe we'll find out one day.

Without a doubt. Wes was the all time master on the guitar. I can't imagine him having any problems keeping up with the band.

Everything I've heard from the guy suggests he was a fairly conservative bebop player - I can't really see him playing in an edgy post-bebop/free jazz format a la the Coltrane Village Vanguard recordings.

[jazzbo]

I can. He was more than you seem to give him credit for. He would have been up to the challenge, Trane I am certain thought so, and I bet he delivered.

[John L]

I can. He was more than you seem to give him credit for. He would have been up to the challenge, Trane I am certain thought so, and I bet he delivered.

Yea. Trane already had a quintet that split the money 5 ways. He didn't need another musician. I don't think that Trane would have hired Wes if he didn't think that this was something that he wanted musically.

[Dave James]

Maybe yes. Maybe no. Miles hired Sam Rivers and that certainly didn't work out. Maybe Trane didn't know either, but was curious enough to find out. Lord knows, he was always pushing the envelope. Regardless of motive, it would sure be a treat to hear these guys together.

[John L]

Don't forget that Trane also asked Lee Morgan to join his first band, but Lee turned him down.

[CJ Shearn]

Wouldn't Concord/Monterey Jazz Festival Records try to release this in their series?

[medjuck]

I can. He was more than you seem to give him credit for. He would have been up to the challenge, Trane I am certain thought so, and I bet he delivered.

Yea. Trane already had a quintet that split the money 5 ways. He didn't need another musician. I don't think that Trane would have hired Wes if he didn't think that this was something that he wanted musically.

I didn't know about Trane sharing his income equally with his bandmates (I've never read his bio). Is this common knowledge? Certainly not a practice of many jazz stars.

[Guy Berger]

I can. He was more than you seem to give him credit for. He would have been up to the challenge, Trane I am certain thought so, and I bet he delivered.

Yeah, but Trane was also a guy who let go of musicians who didn't fit his conception fairly quickly - and Wes didn't spend much time with the group. That said, Wes might have had an affinity for this kind of music that he didn't show elsewhere - we won't know until the recording emerges.

Guy

[Jim R]

I agree with Lon. I think Wes had such an advanced musical mind that he wouldn't have been uncomfortable with such a challenge. Even when playing "straight", his ideas could be so abstract that an untrained ear (someone without much experience in the language of jazz) might think he was playing "out". I'm not even sure Trane would have wanted anything very much beyond what Wes had already demonstrated in terms of stretching the boundaries of "straight" playing.

[John L]

I can. He was more than you seem to give him credit for. He would have been up to the challenge, Trane I am certain thought so, and I bet he delivered.

Yea. Trane already had a quintet that split the money 5 ways. He didn't need another musician. I don't think that Trane would have hired Wes if he didn't think that this was something that he wanted musically.

I didn't know about Trane sharing his income equally with his bandmates (I've never read his bio). Is this common knowledge? Certainly not a practice of many jazz stars.

I didn't write "5 equal ways." I just had in mind the fact that Wes' services were not free for Coltrane.

[papsrus]

John Coltrane 09/22/61

My Favourite Things

Naima

So What? >

Impressions

That's what caught my eye. Is there a recording without Miles where Coltrane performs this tune?

I'm sure Montgomery would have been able to hang with the band, but it would be fascinating to listen to.

[Hardbopjazz]

John Coltrane 09/22/61

My Favourite Things

Naima

So What? >

Impressions

That's what caught my eye. Is there a recording without Miles where Coltrane performs this tune?

I'm sure Montgomery would have been able to hang with the band, but it would be fascinating to listen to.

I am hoping there is a recording despite the sound quality. I too would really want to hear it.

I don't know about this concert in particular, but there indeed exist tapes of this sextet from California in 1961, Coltrane was the top bill. He hired Wes Montgomery for the band when they went to California. Thus, this was not just a one-shot deal. This sextet was Coltrane's working band at the time.

When these tapes were discovered about a decade ago, the owner (Coltrane family?) tried to negotiate a deal for their release. No company would pay much for the copyright, however. Part of the problem, I heard, was that the sound quality is not that good. Since then, it appears that the owners are just sitting on the tapes in anticipation of a possible deal in the future.

I would love to hear the tapes.

For the sake of sharing some of the greatest musicians in jazz history, the Coltrane family should release them and forgo the concern of $$$.

If the sound is really that poor, hopefully technology can help to improve the sound somehow.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Hardbopjazz

[jazzbo]

I don't think the Family has access to this tape.

[Guy Berger]

John Coltrane 09/22/61

My Favourite Things

Naima

So What? >

Impressions

That's what caught my eye. Is there a recording without Miles where Coltrane performs this tune?

I'm sure Montgomery would have been able to hang with the band, but it would be fascinating to listen to.

"Impression" evolved from "So What" gradually during Coltrane's performances of 1960-61. The songs' structures are identical.

[medjuck]

IIRC Coltrane asked the Montreal guitarist Nelson Symonds to join his group but Symonds couldn't get a vis to work in the States. (I just read this again on Symond's Wikopedia entry-- which doesn't of course make it true.)

[Shrdlu]

I love both Trane and Wes, but that was a ridiculous pairing in 1961, I think. Back in 1957-58, it would have been a much better fit.

[clifford_thornton]

This may be faulty recollection of a faulty bio, but didn't Wes quit the Coltrane band?

[Dave James]

I love both Trane and Wes, but that was a ridiculous pairing in 1961, I think. Back in 1957-58, it would have been a much better fit.

I tend to agree with this in spite of my admiration for Montgomery. I'm not all that familiar with outside playing, but how many guitarists are there who could have kept up with, not to mention extend the things Cotrane was doing in 1961? It seems to me that of all the instruments, this is the one that least lends itself to this type of music. I have heard one guy who plays some with Braxton who is pretty amazing, but he only plays on Braxton's more "in the tradition" recordings. His name is Kevin O'Neal.

[jazzbo]

Again, I say there was a great possibility of great music here. Trane may have envisioned Wes playing a rhythmic role such as a second bassist might, or the way that Benson did briefly in Miles Davis recordings. And I think you could be surprised at how Wes would rise to the occasion to solo or contribute to heads on the material this group was working with. I can imagine it as exciting and working. Love to hear it one day.