New Soul Station XRCD Blue Note - out now. Sounds great!

[jazzbo]

I like RVG editions apparently more than most people. To me on my system they appear to be more "live" -- to sound more like a live performance, where I have a front of stage table, than a recorded studio performance, and I like that. Also the pre-tape RVG reissues sound fantastic to me, better than anything else I've heard of those sessions.

There's definitely a place for these SACDs and XRCDs for those who have demanding stereo systems and demanding ears and who want the most HIFI sound of these classic sessions. I bought two of the XRCDs and think they're very well done. I don't think I'll buy any more of the first 25. I have all the titles in at least one other version and I just feel that it's time to stop rebuying these sessions over and over. I'd be a lot more tempted if the choices were less "safe." I'd love to see the "hot jazz" on Blue Note reissued in this series or the early modern jazz of Monk and Bud and others on the label. And just for the variety and to hear what these would sound like in this sort of mastering I'd love to see larger ensemble titles such as Joy Ride, Delightful Lee, Lift Every Voice appear in this series. I'd surrender to temptation then most likely. But mainly we have quintet and quartet dates and a safe sameness to the selections.

Welcome Hannibal!

[Kevin Bresnahan]

My feeling on these two audiophile reissue series is this: If I have the title on a Japanese TOCJ-4XXX CD, I'm not ordering the new remaster. I prefer the sound of these mid-90s TOCJ CDs. Quite frankly, the XRCDs of two of them that I already had on a TOCJ CD sounded almost identical.

As for RVG CDs, there are some clunkers and some beauties. Some need no replacement like the Japanese RVG CDs of LaRoca's "Basra" or Morgan's "Search For The New Land".

Kevin

[Late]

I'd love to see the "hot jazz" on Blue Note reissued in this series ... and to hear Lift Every Voice in this series. I'd surrender to temptation then most likely. But mainly we have quintet and quartet dates and a safe sameness to the selections.

I couldn't agree more with this sentiment. It seems like the audiophile labels (and I'm glad they're around) really only cater to fans of hardbop. There's nothing wrong with that, but just imagine if the next 25 XRCDs had Art Hodes, John Hardee, Benny Morton, James P. Johnson, Cecil Taylor, Sam Rivers, Andrew Hill, Don Cherry and Ornette Coleman in the queue. I'd buy all of them without a blink. As it is, I haven't yet been able to muster one purchase from this series. I'm sure they're great, but the enthusiasm (for me) just isn't there.

I might be the only one too who just isn't into the whole "hardbound book" presentation.

[shaft]

Hi all!

Been foolowing the discussion and it's very interesting ;-)

Soul Station is my favourite Blue Note recording and I've chosen to get several masters of it - both to get the best sound and also compare SQ. I have been a hifi-buff for 30 years so I fin these things interesting. I thought to give some notes on the SQ on the different issues on LP and CD:

McMaster: Stereo spread is OK. Sounds rather thin and not much bass. Can't hear any compression. I would say a typical McMaster.

RVG: Louder and compressed! A very narrow soundfield. Lots of treble and som bass too. Don't like this one - hurts my ears. This was the first I got and since I liked the music sp much I tracked down the McMaster above which was my preferred for a while.

Toshiba BN Works TOCJ-4031 (Issued 1993): This took a long while to track down....Now that's more like it! Typically that warm and neutral early TOCJ-sound. Good spread. Not the last word on resoulution though but it's a very fine CD. I like this one.

The New XRCD: This sounds terribly good! Spread i good. Sounds dynamic and transparent. Hanks tone is deep and soft. The bass is there and it is easy to follow Chambers bass lines. Blakeys drums are a bit "frightful" as they should be ;-) This is like the TOCJ only moore of everything! My preferred CD.

MusicMatters LP 45RPM is the best out there (believe me). It is like the music grew in size and presentation in lack of better words. The transparency is fabulous etc etc. Get this one if you have a Turntable!

Regular Blue Note LP (US) Sounds surprisingly OK but lacks the dynamics and the detail of the MusicMatters edition. Not bad though.

Sadly enough I do not have an original Blue Note Deep groove to compare with but I would be very suprised if it would better both the XRCD and MusicMAtters - but as I do not have it (and most likely never will) I really can't say.

BTW if anyone does not have Soul Station yet please run and get it - in any edition it's a masterpiece!!

/Shaft

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

the dynamic range of the xrcd and i mean youre not getting that from a RVG lp original, right?

[shaft]

Hi Chewy,

I'm not sure how you mean...

The dynamics are depending on the recording and mastering. RVG compresses a lot when mastering to make it sound "loud" I guess. When you are doing an LP you have to compress to some extent when you put the music on the laquer. If well done it is not disturbing like the MusicMatters LP.

Rudy kind of did his personal version of the masters when he put out the RVG-editions and I guess no one dared to speak up when they heard the result since he is the guru of these recordings being the recording engineer. This is especially true for the early japan RVG editions. The stereo spread is very narrow (almost mono) since he claimed thats how he heard it in his recording studio back in the days. The Blue Notes have never been "audiophile" in the same sense that f.ex. the Contemporary recordings in LA. Rudy created a "sound" which we all have been used to and "love" in an way. What's on the master tapes is often quite bright sounding depending on those german mics. Hoffman wrote somewhere about that ;-)

I think what XRCD and MusicMAtters have done is just to transfer the music from the master tapes using the best equipment and just letting the music and dynamics through. If the XRCD is more dynamic than an original LP? Well I don't know but I guess it is not less dynamic. The MM LP is certainly dynamic.

/Shaft

[Daniel A]

A former member of these forums has analyzed a few TOCJ-4xxx discs and found several of them to be bit-identical to the 80s McMasters. Can't say if it's statistically significant, but apparently it's not always a good idea to spend a lot of money on old TOCJ:s.

[shaft]

Hej Daniel

Have never heard of that.....I searched the web for some info about that and the only thing that came close is copied below from riverrat at audiokarma.com.

Generally I think at least the old TOCJs sound fuller in the bass than McMasters. It would be intersting to hear what titles that were compared;-)

/Shaft

START

The first Japanese Toshiba series (known to many of us BN geeks as "TOCJs") were numbered in 1500, 1600, 4000, 4100, 4200, and 4300 series. The 40XX and 41XX were 16-bit remasters, the 15XX, 16XX, 42XX and 43XX were 20-bit. But they all sound good and are worth picking up any time you see them for a decent price. They are always straight reissues of the original lp configuration, no extra tracks.

Early in the 24-bit RVG reissue program, there was a separate RVG reissue program in Japan that came in mini-lp sleeves- we call these "JRVGs" (even though their catalog numbers are TOCJ 9XXX). At first, these were separate remasters from the same titles in the US RVG reissue program. Apparently, it was felt that the Japanese market preferred smoother sounding, more traditional mixes, while more compressed, louder "in your face" mixes were produced for the US market. So Rudy Van Gelder was commissioned to do separate remasters for each market. At some point, the separate reissue program was curtailed, and the same remasters were used in both markets. I have yet to see a list of which titles have separate remasters.

A very few Blue Note titles are also available in 24-bit remasters, but not RVGs. I think Ron McMaster did most of these. An example is Art Blakey's Roots and Herbs. These usually do not exhibit the high end emphasis and compressed harshness for which many US RVGs and JRVGs have been criticized.

Just to confuse matters even more, there is a more recent Japanese Blue Note remaster program that are not the original 16 and 20-bit TOCJs, but new 24-bit remasters, by somebody else besides Rudy Van Gelder (RVG). These have been termed "TOCJ24s". Catalog numbers on these are usually TOCJ 6XXXX.

Why yet another set of Blue Note remasters? Who knows, doesn't seem to make much sense. But the TOCJ24s are often very reasonably priced. I have only one of these- Lee Morgan Vol. 3- and it sounds pretty good. People more familiar, and/or with better ears and audio systems than me say they sound a lot like the US RVGs- compressed, overly loud, not as good as the original 16 and 20-bit TOCJs.

Confused yet? At this point, I personally have lost a lot of my interest in pursuing the "best" sounding remasters. It is an endless wild goose chase, and as the news of these latest Steve Hoffman remasters shows, it will probably never end. Having said that, I will probably pick up some of these newest reissues for some of my favorite titles, and continue my opportunistic upgrading when the opportunities present themselves...

END

[jazzbo]

Many of the very earliest Japanese Blue Notes used the same remasterings as the US versions. Also some later ones. Examples that I have are two Lee Morgans, one The Rajah, the other Standards.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

The first Japanese Blue Note CDs were given a catalog number of CP35-XXXX and done in the mid-eighties by an engineer in Japan. They had a unique mastering. There were only a few titles... maybe 6? The next batch of 50 CDs, called "The Best 50 Series" had a CP32 prefix and as I understand it, used Ron McMaster's digital master. These should be digital dupes to the US CD. In fact, many of the first "US CDs" were pressed in Japan and only differentiated by the paint job.

The TOCJ-15XX, 42XX and 43XX series started as 16 bit and switched to 20 bit very early on. As far as I know, these masterings are unique and were done in Japan by a Toshiba engineering team.

However, there were a few TOCJs, mostly in the 16XX series, that consisted of unissued or rare titles. Some of them used Ron McMaster's digital master. I believe they listed this on the back of the CD. I have TOCJ-1616, Tina Brooks' "Minor Move", and it lists McMaster on it.

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

However, there were a few TOCJs, mostly in the 16XX series, that consisted of unissued or rare titles. Some of them used Ron McMaster's digital master. I believe they listed this on the back of the CD. I have TOCJ-1616, Tina Brooks' "Minor Move", and it lists McMaster on it.

Yes, 'The Rajah' -- as Lon mentioned -- is another from the 1600 series that used McMaster.....as did the TOCJ-66XXX ones like 'Street Singer' and 'Redd's Blues'. That said, I'm still a longtime JRVG fan -- love the sound on my system (MA6900, MCD301, Dynaudio Countour S3.4). Heck, am I the only one left here who listens to 'em? So lonely.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Son-of-a-Weizen

[riverrat]

A former member of these forums has analyzed a few TOCJ-4xxx discs and found several of them to be bit-identical to the 80s McMasters. Can't say if it's statistically significant, but apparently it's not always a good idea to spend a lot of money on old TOCJ:s.

As a person who has spent quite a bit of time (probably too much) trying to sort out details of the various remasters and pressings of the BN catalog on CD, I'd be interested in where you found this info, i.e. a link and/or a list of titles purported to be the same mastering.

Also, in regards to Kevin's post about the CP35 and CP32 Japanese Blue Note CDs that preceded the BN Works series (commonly referred to as "TOCJs")- it was my understanding as well that aside from the 6 titles in the CP35 series, all others i.e. the CP32 series, used the McMaster remasters. But there some members of the SH forum swear that many of the CP32 series at least sound different than their US counterparts.

This is interesting to me in an academic way, but as I indicated awhile back in that post on AK that is quoted above, I have kind of lost interest in pursuing this actively, and certainly won't be paying $30-$50 per title for 1st Japan issue BN CDs. The BN Works (TOCJ) series sound fine to me, although the new SACD Hybrids and XRCDs are even better. I will pick up a few of those, but probably not the whole series, for economic reasons.

FWIW, and to be clear, I have NO DOG IN THIS FIGHT, don't really care one way or another, here is a PM that was passed on to me regarding a recent "shootout" of several different version of Sonny Clark Cool Struttin:

[begin quote] "Held a "blind" shoot-out during the Chinese New Year holidays amongst "audiophile" types at my friend's house.

Cool Struttin’ used.

XRCD

HQCD [riverrat comment: never heard of this pressing, what are they talking about?]

BN Works TOCJ

BN Works Mono [riverrat comment: TOCJ 6194, not part of BN Works Series]

CP32 [riverrat comment: Japanese pressing, referred to as McMaster mastering below]

JPN RVG

Hardware

Esoteric X03SE/Accuphase C2400/A60/Wilson Sophia 2, XLO cables throughout.

Amongst 7 people, 3 were out and out audio nutters, others are jazz fans with good systems but I am the only one who likes BN (ouch). The others are more ECM, euro jazz types...

The title track was played in full from every single version. Then each person got to select the bit they want to listen to again.

Anyway the results were surprising... in order of preference:

BN Works Mono/CP 32 [McMaster] version - 2 votes each

XRCD/HQCD stereo/BN Works stereo - 1 each

JRVG - no vote

XRCD were thought to be too "ping pong" but the piano sounds best. [riverrat comment: WTF does "ping pong" refer to?]

BN Works Mono has the best sounding horns and organic sounding.

CP32 bass light but most natural sounding.

HQCD and BN works considered "too warm", "like fake analogue".

J RVG - "is this a joke?"

My preference (within this system)

1) CP32

2) BN Works Mono/XRCD

3) HQCD

4) BN Works" [End quote]

Edited March 3, 2010 by riverrat

[shaft]

However, there were a few TOCJs, mostly in the 16XX series, that consisted of unissued or rare titles. Some of them used Ron McMaster's digital master. I believe they listed this on the back of the CD. I have TOCJ-1616, Tina Brooks' "Minor Move", and it lists McMaster on it.

Hi!

I have the same TOCJ-1616 and cannot find McMasters name on on it on back, booklet or OBI - unless it is written in japanese (my japaneese is a bit rusty ) Maybe it's not the same issue?? Strangely enough the OBI says issued in 98 and the back 96 (or it simple means that the title will expire in 1998?). It seems to have been issued as a KING LP originally.

Anyway Minor move surely sound OK to me - particularly Lee Morgans trumpet This is really good music. Sonny Clark is one of my favourites as well!

As for rivverat - thanks for answering ;-.)

I don't feel that this is a fight in any way. It is very hard to say that this remaster is really better that the other. We all have different preferences and stereo setups. The one you used seemed more than OK I have an Accuphase myself just love it!

/Shaft

[riverrat]

...As for rivverat - thanks for answering ;-.)

I don't feel that this is a fight in any way. It is very hard to say that this remaster is really better that the other. We all have different preferences and stereo setups. The one you used seemed more than OK I have an Accuphase myself just love it! /Shaft

Don't view it as a fight at all, just an interesting discussion. That is just a commonly-used figure of speech to indicate that I don't feel strongly one way or the other.

And I was just passing on 3rd hand info on that Sonny Clark comparison, it is not my stereo system, don't know any of the people involved, etc etc. Just thought it might be interesting to add to this discussion.

Beyond a preference for the BN Works series, I'm not an early Japan Blue Note CD fanatic, but do remain casually interested in the fact that some people purport to be able to hear sonic differences in what seem to be the same masterings but issued separately for the US and Japan. Whether these differences are attributable to these actually being different masterings, differences in manufacturing standards, psychological and not actually real, are issues that I have come to believe will never be definitively resolved.

What matters more to me at this point is that good sounding versions are available, and that there are two great reissue programs underway producing even better sounding versions. These days, I've largely wound down my search for new BN titles, or replacing ones I have with better sounding pressings and am focusing more on listening to my collection!

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

here is a PM that was passed on to me regarding a recent "shootout" of several different version of Sonny Clark Cool Struttin:

"Held a "blind" shoot-out during the Chinese New Year holidays

J RVG - "is this a joke?"

Yeah, that landed in my in-box as well. When I pressed him for further info, he admitted that the shootout had been held 45 minutes after they'd returned from a Chinese New Years parade just down the block! 30,000 firecrackers'll mess things up a bit. The event was then restaged and his next e-mail had the JRVG winning! You didn't see that one?

[riverrat]

....When I pressed him for further info, he admitted that the shootout had been held 45 minutes after they'd returned from a Chinese New Years parade just down the block! 30,000 firecrackers'll mess things up a bit. The event was then restaged and his next e-mail had the JRVG winning! You didn't see that one?

Interesting, very interesting, assuming you are being serious here, which despite your proven sense of humor I assume you are. No, I was not privy to the follow-ups...perhaps because they were not helpful in "marketing" 1st pressing Japan Blue Note CDs? Hmmmmmm....

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

Serious about receiving his 1st message and just kidding about the follow-up message -- alas it's true that my beloved JRVGs do indeed suck eggs in their book!

Edited March 3, 2010 by Son-of-a-Weizen

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I have the same TOCJ-1616 and cannot find McMasters name on on it on back, booklet or OBI - unless it is written in japanese (my japaneese is a bit rusty )

Darn - wrong CD! It's Freddie Redd's "Redd's Blues" from the TOCJ-16XX series that has Mcmaster's name in the credits. Sorry for the confusion.

Of course, there's still a chance that Brooks' "Minor Move" was done by McMaster.

[riverrat]

Serious about receiving his 1st message and just kidding about the follow-up message -- alas it's true that my beloved JRVGs do indeed suck eggs in their book!

I always was somewhat gullible...

Who cares what a group of strangers half way across the planet think! If you like JRVGs more power to ya. There isn't much doubt they are generally more detailed than TOCJs, and if they complement your system and speakers, could sound very good indeed.

And added to the BN CD reissue/remaster mystery pile is the whole issue of if and when the separate RVG remasterings for Japan and the US ended, which titles were remastered separately, how the two differ for each title, etc. Another can of worms that I have run out of steam trying to definitively sort out...

Edited March 3, 2010 by riverrat

[MichL]

Hej Daniel

Have never heard of that.....I searched the web for some info about that and the only thing that came close is copied below from riverrat at audiokarma.com.

Generally I think at least the old TOCJs sound fuller in the bass than McMasters. It would be intersting to hear what titles that were compared;-)

/Shaft

START

The first Japanese Toshiba series (known to many of us BN geeks as "TOCJs") were numbered in 1500, 1600, 4000, 4100, 4200, and 4300 series. The 40XX and 41XX were 16-bit remasters, the 15XX, 16XX, 42XX and 43XX were 20-bit. But they all sound good and are worth picking up any time you see them for a decent price. They are always straight reissues of the original lp configuration, no extra tracks.

Early in the 24-bit RVG reissue program, there was a separate RVG reissue program in Japan that came in mini-lp sleeves- we call these "JRVGs" (even though their catalog numbers are TOCJ 9XXX). At first, these were separate remasters from the same titles in the US RVG reissue program. Apparently, it was felt that the Japanese market preferred smoother sounding, more traditional mixes, while more compressed, louder "in your face" mixes were produced for the US market. So Rudy Van Gelder was commissioned to do separate remasters for each market. At some point, the separate reissue program was curtailed, and the same remasters were used in both markets. I have yet to see a list of which titles have separate remasters.

A very few Blue Note titles are also available in 24-bit remasters, but not RVGs. I think Ron McMaster did most of these. An example is Art Blakey's Roots and Herbs. These usually do not exhibit the high end emphasis and compressed harshness for which many US RVGs and JRVGs have been criticized.

Just to confuse matters even more, there is a more recent Japanese Blue Note remaster program that are not the original 16 and 20-bit TOCJs, but new 24-bit remasters, by somebody else besides Rudy Van Gelder (RVG). These have been termed "TOCJ24s". Catalog numbers on these are usually TOCJ 6XXXX.

Why yet another set of Blue Note remasters? Who knows, doesn't seem to make much sense. But the TOCJ24s are often very reasonably priced. I have only one of these- Lee Morgan Vol. 3- and it sounds pretty good. People more familiar, and/or with better ears and audio systems than me say they sound a lot like the US RVGs- compressed, overly loud, not as good as the original 16 and 20-bit TOCJs.

Confused yet? At this point, I personally have lost a lot of my interest in pursuing the "best" sounding remasters. It is an endless wild goose chase, and as the news of these latest Steve Hoffman remasters shows, it will probably never end. Having said that, I will probably pick up some of these newest reissues for some of my favorite titles, and continue my opportunistic upgrading when the opportunities present themselves...

END

>>>>Just to confuse matters even more, there is a more recent Japanese Blue Note remaster program that are not the original 16 and 20-bit TOCJs, but new 24-bit remasters, by somebody else besides Rudy Van Gelder (RVG). These have been termed "TOCJ24s". Catalog numbers on these are usually TOCJ 6XXXX.

I have bought several of these BN in the series http://www.emimusic.jp/jazz/bluenotebestmore/201002.htm. I think these are the same as refered to above. They all have copyrights 2005- on the OBI.

I like the sound of this series. They are more dynamic and wider stereo than the RVGs. Much less compression too. The XRCD and SACD BN series are sonically superior though. These BNs remasters remind me of the best work Ron McMaster has done. Not thin or loud. I think Ron gets tared with too wide a brush. He does do some nice remasters.

I wish the XRCDs and SACD BNs were more in the $20-25 range though.

Michael

[J.A.W.]

>>>>Just to confuse matters even more, there is a more recent Japanese Blue Note remaster program that are not the original 16 and 20-bit TOCJs, but new 24-bit remasters, by somebody else besides Rudy Van Gelder (RVG). These have been termed "TOCJ24s". Catalog numbers on these are usually TOCJ 6XXXX.

I have bought several of these BN in the series http://www.emimusic.jp/jazz/bluenotebestmore/201002.htm. I think these are the same as refered to above. They all have copyrights 2005- on the OBI.

I like the sound of this series. They are more dynamic and wider stereo than the RVGs. Much less compression too. The XRCD and SACD BN series are sonically superior though. These BNs remasters remind me of the best work Ron McMaster has done. Not thin or loud. I think Ron gets tared with too wide a brush. He does do some nice remasters.

I wish the XRCDs and SACD BNs were more in the $20-25 range though.

Michael

I bought many of those TOCJ-6xxx CDs ("TOCJ24s") when they came out and after extensive listening I found them very fatiguing. I compared some of them to their McMaster and "Blue Note Works" counterparts and the "TOCJ24s", which were mastered by Japanese engineers, were much less dynamic/much more compressed and too loud to my ears; they also sounded pretty harsh to me. Not my cup of tea.

I have heard the CD-layers (I don't have an SACD player) of a few Hoffman-mastered hybrid Blue Note SACDs and no XRCDs (yet). The Hoffmans sounded good, but there was no big difference with my "Blue Note Works" discs and I can't really justify shelling out big bucks for them.

Edited March 3, 2010 by J.A.W.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I have

TOCJ1610 - JOS trio + Lou Donaldson

TOCJ1612 - JOS - Cherokee

TOCJ1615 - JOS - Lonesome road

TOCJ1616 - Tina - Minor move

The only one with a credit is 1610, which says "tape transfers: Tony Sestanovich" - but it said that on the original LP - BN61013. But glad to get them out - got my breakfast music for tomorrow

There's another new Toshiba BN series now. I've got Grant Green's "Visions", which is TOCJ8586. Came out in September 2009. No mention of the mastering; nether the engineer nor the number of bits. Has a copyright date of 2009. I believe this has never been out on CD before, so it must be a new mastering, surely?

MG

[Man with the Golden Arm]

so these CP-32s are all McMasters? (as shrugs would say : i must have smoked the obis.)

I have a two disc set - first CDs I ever bought in '85 - The Best of Blue Note Vols 1&2. Sound fine and never realized these are the so called "black triangle" versions as well.

Best thing about them is that Silver's "Song for My Father" has no distortion / tape stretch.

[Chuck Nessa]

Anyone hear new notes?

It's about music.

[jazzbo]

That said, I'm still a longtime JRVG fan -- love the sound on my system (MA6900, MCD301, Dynaudio Countour S3.4). Heck, am I the only one left here who listens to 'em? So lonely.

I listen to them as well. Sound good to me.