JSngry Posted November 30, 2003 Report Posted November 30, 2003 I guess the "official" RCA Victor NYC studio was Judson Hall? (I'm really not sure about that...) Anyway, that studio had a sound that was every bit as identifiable as Columbia's or Van Gelder's. I think of it as a "hard" sound, compressed in a way. It shows up across the board, on pop and jazz sessions alike, and you can hear it on old 78s as well as state-of-the-art LPs. Also, I've hear some RCA Victor live stuff that has that a tinge of that sound. Why. I don't know. Somebody tell me if you know. please. So what was the deal? Was it the studio that had the sound, or was the sound the result of the RCA engineers equipment and recording techniques? I don't know squat about this, Educate me, please! As always, thanks in advance. Quote
Late Posted November 30, 2003 Report Posted November 30, 2003 I don't know very much about this either, but I thought the hall was actually Webster Hall. At least, some RCA recordings (Joe Newman, Al Cohn, et al.) were made there. Quote
JSngry Posted November 30, 2003 Author Report Posted November 30, 2003 You're right. Told you I didn't know anything about this stuff... Quote
Jim R Posted November 30, 2003 Report Posted November 30, 2003 I know even less than you guys do (really), but several years ago I recall reading an interview/article on a very similar topic. I believe the article was part of an "Acoustic Sounds" catalog (a mail order company that I must admit knowing very little about, which sells jazz/classical/pop? LP's and CD's to audiophiles). The interviewee was an RCA engineer, who was renowned for his work in the field recording symphony orchestras all over the world. Let's just say this guy knew his microphone types, and how and where to place them. I don't recall his name now, but then I had only borrowed the catalog out of moderate curiosity in the first place. Anyway, if anybody has (or recalls better than I do) that particular catalog, maybe it could be a source of info for Jim. This would have come out around 1995 or so... Quote
7/4 Posted November 30, 2003 Report Posted November 30, 2003 Most probably the engeneers, the equipment and how they placed the microphones. Quote
Harold_Z Posted November 30, 2003 Report Posted November 30, 2003 RCA had several studios in what I assume was it's NY offices. I'm vague on the exact location, but I'm thinking (around) 40th St and Sixth ave and I think the studios were on the 4th floor..there was a studio "A", studio "B" etc. I'm not sure when they started using this facility. I was there in the late 60s and I assumed that was the studio used on Jazz dates from the 50s. Anybody have any info on this location? Quote
brownie Posted December 1, 2003 Report Posted December 1, 2003 Anybody have any info on this location? Read all about Webster Hall here Is this still a nightclub? Clinton was there, did Bush go nightclubbing there too? Quote
JSngry Posted December 1, 2003 Author Report Posted December 1, 2003 For nearly 20 years following the depression, Webster Hall remained dark. It wasn’t until the 1950’s that RCA Records stepped-in and resurrected the site, converting it into their East Coast recording venue, Webster Hall Studios. Is this accurate? I ask because I hear a distinctive "RCA sound" on records made prior to the 1950s. Quote
brownie Posted December 1, 2003 Report Posted December 1, 2003 A number of great RCA albums were recorded at Webster Hall. The various Al Cohn albums, the Jazz Workshop series (George Russell, Hal McKusick, Billy Byers, Manny Albam) were all recorded at Webster Hall. Even the last sessions of the Mosaic/Verve Gerry Mulligan Concert Jazz Band were recorded at Webster Hall. A lot of great classical RCA sessions also originated from that place. The quality of the acoustics was famous. Not sure where RCA had their studios before they took over Webster Hall. RCA made a lot of records in their studios in Camden, NJ, in the thirties. Quote
JSngry Posted December 1, 2003 Author Report Posted December 1, 2003 Yeah, I think Verve used Webster Hall fairly regularly in the Granz days. Quote
7/4 Posted December 7, 2003 Report Posted December 7, 2003 Anybody have any info on this location? Read all about Webster Hall here Is this still a nightclub? Clinton was there, did Bush go nightclubbing there too? Damm! I've been there when it was the Ritz! I heard a couple of concerts there: A Dixie Dregs reunion with then new bassist Dave LaRue. A "super group" with Alan Holdsworth, Stanley Clarke, Steve Smith and some keyboard player, I can't remember his name. The Zawanul Syndicate, I think he had Steve Khan on guitar. Quote
mikeweil Posted December 8, 2003 Report Posted December 8, 2003 I have a photo in the booklet of a RCA Joe Newman reissue, just one mic (probably a Neumann) and the balance achieved by the distance to it: four horms, piano, guitar, bass, drums. Balance and sound are very natural and excellent! Wish they would do it like this today, but I'm afraid only few groups could play that way. Quote
michel devos Posted December 10, 2003 Report Posted December 10, 2003 (edited) So what was the deal? Was it the studio that had the sound, or was the sound the result of the RCA engineers equipment and recording techniques? Whenever a sound is produced in a hall, it interacts with its acoustic : this you might call the Sound Signature of the hall : it may be bad, average or very good, depending of the size and volume of the hall, as well as the walls lining, floor, seats, furniture etc...I the size (volume) is not right, it may introduce compression of the sound, disappearance of low frequencies, or bulging of the midrange, resulting in nasty, hard sounds.From here, you might say there are very roughly two schools of thinking : -Use the acoustical properties of the hall (they better be good) and organize the placing of the microphones and players in a suitable way to obtain the most natural sound, with the right amount of reverberation.Little or no equalization should be needed, provided the right microphones are selected. ->Delete as much as you can of the hall acoustical interference by using a very close miking technique and suppress as much reverb as possible with screens made of board or textile(sound traps).Ultimately, if this option is selected, one would end the trip in a dead room with no sound signature (a recording studio...)and shape the sound to one's taste by using the wide range of computer artefacts and tools available . Personally, I much prefer recording in a live acoustical environment, better suited for classical music, but there is no reason jazz music should not benefit from these arrangements : I always felt that the very natural results obtained by Van Gelder came mainly from the use of a live room instead of the stonecold catacombes often used in jazz recordings in those days. Of course, the Live solution has also its drawbacks, such as extraneous noises (cars, planes etc..)but with a reasonable amount of time , most of these problems can be solved, but that is probably impossible now in NYC and similar big cities...I'm living in a small town in Europe and use mainly semi-abandoned churches in the countryside.Very quiet, but jeez, gets freezing by now... :rmad Edited December 10, 2003 by michel devos Quote
Shrdlu Posted December 14, 2003 Report Posted December 14, 2003 ... and then there's the picture of the Fats Waller group at the then RCA Victor studio, all crowded around the one mike! (I guess the engineer knew where to place that one, too. ) Quote
7/4 Posted December 14, 2003 Report Posted December 14, 2003 I've done recordings of Hindustani Raga vocalists with an Audio Technica at822 stereo mike. It's great, I just set in front of the singer. The tablas are on one side, the sarangi or harmonium on the other and the tambouras in the backbround. I love to try this with one really nice condenser mike and a real nice tube mike preamp in mono! Quote
michel devos Posted December 19, 2003 Report Posted December 19, 2003 I've done recordings of Hindustani Raga vocalists with an Audio Technica at822 stereo mike. It's great, I just set in front of the singer. The tablas are on one side, the sarangi or harmonium on the other and the tambouras in the backbround. I love to try this with one really nice condenser mike and a real nice tube mike preamp in mono! Aargh..I suppose you just want to cut the cost s...otherwise why mono...? Quote
7/4 Posted December 19, 2003 Report Posted December 19, 2003 I've done recordings of Hindustani Raga vocalists with an Audio Technica at822 stereo mike. It's great, I just set in front of the singer. The tablas are on one side, the sarangi or harmonium on the other and the tambouras in the backbround. I love to try this with one really nice condenser mike and a real nice tube mike preamp in mono! Aargh..I suppose you just want to cut the cost s...otherwise why mono...? True vintage vibe maybe? Curious I guess, I could do it in stereo. Quote
SGUD missile Posted December 19, 2003 Report Posted December 19, 2003 I seem to recall in the 50s and 60s there was a refurbished cathedral space just south of midtown that I think RCA referred to as "Manhattan Center " studios .. I think it was quite large and had room for a lot of players ( which was how all recording was done then .. ) , and if I'm not mistaken a lot of the Sauter/Finegan stuff was cut there .. along with a lot of jazz dates and commercially oriented stuff as well .. the room did have a definite "character " to the sound that came from there, since artificial reverb was very raw at that stage ( mostly just spring type stuff I think ) BTW: count me among the fans of live recording for jazz stuff ..I recorded most of my CD with all sixteen guys in the room at once ..couple runthrus, and light it up! It definitely adds to the "edge" of the performances .. Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted December 20, 2003 Report Posted December 20, 2003 BTW: count me among the fans of live recording for jazz stuff ..I recorded most of my CD with all sixteen guys in the room at once ..couple runthrus, and light it up! It definitely adds to the "edge" of the performances .. I would never record any other way. Quote
Gerry Posted December 25, 2003 Report Posted December 25, 2003 (edited) Manhattan Center is still up and running and it boasts a bit more non-audio history than many other studios. http://www.mcp-studios.com/ Edited December 25, 2003 by Gerry Quote
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