Hip me to some (more) early jazz

[king ubu]

so I got my package today...

Eureka Brass Band (AMCD-70)

George Lewis with Kid Shots (AMCD-2)

Baby Dodds (AMCD-17)

Bunk Johnson - 1944 (AMCD-3)

Bunk Johnson - 1944/45 (AMCD-12)

Kid Thomas and His Algiers Stompers (AMCD-10)

George Lewis & His New Orleans Stompers Vol. 1 (AMCD-100)

Papa Celestin's New Orleans Band - Marie Laveau (GHB BCD-106)

George Lewis - Beverly Caverns Sessions + Beverly Caverns Sessions Vol. 2 (Good Time Jazz)

these will keep my busy for quite a while

[papsrus]

A little bit on the tail end of this era, but I was happy to retrieve the Bud Freeman -- 1928-1938 Chrono Classics disc from the mailbox today. Haven't had a chance to fire it up yet, but I've been anticipating this one for a while.

[carnivore]

One I bought recently and which has surprised me pleasantly as a prime example of some more pre-Swing era big band music (the music might well have fitted into the Jazz Oracle catalog, not only for its cleanly restored sound where John R.T. Davies had a hand again):

TEXAS & TENNESSEE TERRITORY BANDS 1928-1931 (Retrieval RTR 79006)

featuring Blue Steele & His Orchestra, Slim Lamar & His Southerners, Mart Britt & His Orchestra, Sunny Clapp & His Band O'Sunshine, Phil Baxter & His Orchestra (also known as Phil Baxter's Texas Tommies, according to a mention in the "Black Beauty, White Heat" book). Outside the big metropolitan centers, those Texas bands sure were among those who really had their act together.

That's a terrific CD - some of the stuff on it is eye-opening, especially where one can hear regional characteristics. I knew the Lamar/Britt sides but heard the Phil Baxter recordings for the first time. His rhythm section is fascinating in its feel. Not quite jazz, not quite Western Swing.

[jazzbo]

so I got my package today...

Eureka Brass Band (AMCD-70)

George Lewis with Kid Shots (AMCD-2)

Baby Dodds (AMCD-17)

Bunk Johnson - 1944 (AMCD-3)

Bunk Johnson - 1944/45 (AMCD-12)

Kid Thomas and His Algiers Stompers (AMCD-10)

George Lewis & His New Orleans Stompers Vol. 1 (AMCD-100)

Papa Celestin's New Orleans Band - Marie Laveau (GHB BCD-106)

George Lewis - Beverly Caverns Sessions + Beverly Caverns Sessions Vol. 2 (Good Time Jazz)

these will keep my busy for quite a while

Good "revivalist" stuff it looks like. I have tha Dodds and the Johnson, and like them.

A little bit on the tail end of this era, but I was happy to retrieve the Bud Freeman -- 1928-1938 Chrono Classics disc from the mailbox today. Haven't had a chance to fire it up yet, but I've been anticipating this one for a while.

You're in for a treat, I have all that material and it is awesome stuff!

[papsrus]

Durium, who hasn't weighed in here, has a post up on his Keep Swinging blog about the passing of Tuba Fats, with a hardy rec for this one.

Just a tuba player from New Orleans. Sounds great.

[king ubu]

One more - The New Orleans Rhythm Kings. Variable, but their best stuff is essential. The whole shootin' match is on The Complete Set on Retrieval.

NORK - mentioned in the first post... I got the Retrieval recently, still need to play it!

I finally played the whole set last weekend. The best of it is glorious!

But yes, it's a bit uneven. Though still a fine package that comes highly recommended!

(mine has the beige frame cover though)

[kenny weir]

As recorded elsewhere, most of my listening lately has been country of one sort or another, so getting these today from cdconnection is a nice change - and tasty!

[jeffcrom]

As recorded elsewhere, most of my listening lately has been country of one sort or another, so getting these today from cdconnection is a nice change - and tasty!

:tup I love all of these (except some of the vocals on the OM5).

[kenny weir]

The Orginal Memphis Five is similar to a lot of other CDs I have, so is having the least impact so far in two days of intense exploration of my new purchases.

The Joe Robichaux is a wild ride. If I've read the notes correctly, it seems that though these are NY recordings the band itself was a working New Orleans unit. Certainly different from anything else I've heard from that place and time - maybe Herb Morand and what I imagine the Harlem Hamfats will sound like when I eventually get there. Also: Early horn-laden Bob Wills. Lots of riffing and rocking. A pleasure!

Burke is a new artist for me so this is a true delight that I'm imbibing on as I write. This has gone straight into the top eschelons of my favourite recordings of New Orleans trad outings - relaxed, swinging, acceptably diverse repertoire (considering the genre), mostly great sound and three different lineups to add variety. Fabulous!

Edited January 27, 2010 by kenny weir

[papsrus]

Two strands worth considering - although maybe a little later time-wise than you're seeking - are the New Orleans Revival and dixieland.

Warning: There are plenty, oodles of traps for the unwary - but the best of it if simply great music.

Time was when I thought dixieland a term of derision and contempt, but now I know better! I found it easy once I realised it had so much repertoire and approach in common with Bob Wills!

The revival stuff wasn't quite it was purported to be, but who cares?

Some of my faves:

The Eddie Condon JSP box - fabulous but getting pricey. Maybe it's gone OOP? $60 new from Amazon sellers.

Bud Freeman - Chicago/Austin High School Jazz In Hi-Fi (Mosaic)

Tony Parenti and His New Orleanians (Jazzology)

Art Hodes - The Jazz Records Story (Jazzology)

The 6 & 7/8s String Band (American Music) This is some crazy stuff and part of the New Orleans tradition mostly now forgotten: The usual warhorses done on guitar, mandolin, steel and bass. From about '40s-late '50s.

Bunk Johnson - King Of The Blues (American Music)

George Lewis - Trios & Bands (American Music)

Herb Morand - 1949 (American Music)

George Lewis/Kid Thomas Ragtime Stompers (GHB) Crowned by those Penguins don'tcha know?!

Source company for the Jazzology, GHB and American Music sets is here: http://www.jazzology.com/index.php

Service is good, but you may be able to do better price-wise elsewhere.

I find this stuff fascinating and there's times when nothing else does the job.

But unless you're an complete anorak for it, there are limits. For the simple reason that the collective, overlapping repertoire of both scenes is relatively limited.

Thankfully I only have When The Saints on a few discs, but have a screed of Chinatown and Darktown Strutters Ball, just for instance.

Just jumping into some more of this stuff now Kenny. Thanks for the recommendations. Also wandering over to West Coast revivalist stuff -- Turk Murphy, Lu Watters, etc.

[cih]

How about Clarence Williams' washboard bands? Also the Louisville Jug Bands - 'Philips' Louisville Jug Band' is a good 'un (on Document but probably on Frog too?)

Edited June 7, 2010 by cih

[BillF]

You're probably onto these already, paps, but sitting in my vinyl collection and regrettably rarely played now are the LP equivalents of these classics:

Edited June 7, 2010 by BillF

[papsrus]

You're probably onto these already, paps, but sitting in my vinyl collection and regrettably rarely played now are the LP equivalents of these classics:

Thanks Bill. I should dig into Lunceford a bit more. Listening now to some samples of the one you recommend. Sounds terrific!

I see some used copies are available at amazon for a song.

There are also some pretty expensive copies. Always wonder about that. One seller prices a disc at $5 and the next guy prices it at $26. Hm. ...

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Nice collection of Lunceford on Quadromania - covers 1935-45. Called "Life is fine". I return to that a couple of times a year. Packaging is about as crummy as you can get on those Quadromania things but the music's as fine as life!

Oh, and let me put in a good word for Erskine Hawkins' orchestra. I haven't got enough of that band yet, so I can't give you a positive rec - though a cheap compilation on Bluebird called "The original Tuxedo Junction" is excellent.

MG

[BillF]

You're probably onto these already, paps, but sitting in my vinyl collection and regrettably rarely played now are the LP equivalents of these classics:

Thanks Bill. I should dig into Lunceford a bit more. Listening now to some samples of the one you recommend. Sounds terrific!

I see some used copies are available at amazon for a song.

There are also some pretty expensive copies. Always wonder about that. One seller prices a disc at $5 and the next guy prices it at $26. Hm. ...

Glad that appealed, paps. I have just five big band LPs from the period 1937-42 and all are classics. Apart from the two illustrated, which are still available on CD, there's Ellington's In A Mellotone, with tracks like "Main Stem" and "Cotton Tail" and three Basie albums, which cover the classic sides with Lester ("Taxi War Dance", "Twelfth Street Rag", "Texas Shuffle", etc) and Jimmy Rushing ("Sent for You Yesterday", "Good Morning Blues", etc).

[papsrus]

Nice collection of Lunceford on Quadromania - covers 1935-45. Called "Life is fine". I return to that a couple of times a year. Packaging is about as crummy as you can get on those Quadromania things but the music's as fine as life!

Oh, and let me put in a good word for Erskine Hawkins' orchestra. I haven't got enough of that band yet, so I can't give you a positive rec - though a cheap compilation on Bluebird called "The original Tuxedo Junction" is excellent.

MG

Thanks MG.

And Cih.

And I'd overlooked Kenny's comments above on Raymond Burke. That sounds like something worth digging into.

[kenny weir]

Two strands worth considering - although maybe a little later time-wise than you're seeking - are the New Orleans Revival and dixieland.

Warning: There are plenty, oodles of traps for the unwary - but the best of it if simply great music.

Time was when I thought dixieland a term of derision and contempt, but now I know better! I found it easy once I realised it had so much repertoire and approach in common with Bob Wills!

The revival stuff wasn't quite it was purported to be, but who cares?

Some of my faves:

The Eddie Condon JSP box - fabulous but getting pricey. Maybe it's gone OOP? $60 new from Amazon sellers.

Bud Freeman - Chicago/Austin High School Jazz In Hi-Fi (Mosaic)

Tony Parenti and His New Orleanians (Jazzology)

Art Hodes - The Jazz Records Story (Jazzology)

The 6 & 7/8s String Band (American Music) This is some crazy stuff and part of the New Orleans tradition mostly now forgotten: The usual warhorses done on guitar, mandolin, steel and bass. From about '40s-late '50s.

Bunk Johnson - King Of The Blues (American Music)

George Lewis - Trios & Bands (American Music)

Herb Morand - 1949 (American Music)

George Lewis/Kid Thomas Ragtime Stompers (GHB) Crowned by those Penguins don'tcha know?!

Source company for the Jazzology, GHB and American Music sets is here: http://www.jazzology.com/index.php

Service is good, but you may be able to do better price-wise elsewhere.

I find this stuff fascinating and there's times when nothing else does the job.

But unless you're an complete anorak for it, there are limits. For the simple reason that the collective, overlapping repertoire of both scenes is relatively limited.

Thankfully I only have When The Saints on a few discs, but have a screed of Chinatown and Darktown Strutters Ball, just for instance.

Just jumping into some more of this stuff now Kenny. Thanks for the recommendations. Also wandering over to West Coast revivalist stuff -- Turk Murphy, Lu Watters, etc.

Hey Paps, I'm curious to know what specific albums of this kinda stuff you've picked up????

[papsrus]

Two strands worth considering - although maybe a little later time-wise than you're seeking - are the New Orleans Revival and dixieland.

Warning: There are plenty, oodles of traps for the unwary - but the best of it if simply great music.

Time was when I thought dixieland a term of derision and contempt, but now I know better! I found it easy once I realised it had so much repertoire and approach in common with Bob Wills!

The revival stuff wasn't quite it was purported to be, but who cares?

Some of my faves:

The Eddie Condon JSP box - fabulous but getting pricey. Maybe it's gone OOP? $60 new from Amazon sellers.

Bud Freeman - Chicago/Austin High School Jazz In Hi-Fi (Mosaic)

Tony Parenti and His New Orleanians (Jazzology)

Art Hodes - The Jazz Records Story (Jazzology)

The 6 & 7/8s String Band (American Music) This is some crazy stuff and part of the New Orleans tradition mostly now forgotten: The usual warhorses done on guitar, mandolin, steel and bass. From about '40s-late '50s.

Bunk Johnson - King Of The Blues (American Music)

George Lewis - Trios & Bands (American Music)

Herb Morand - 1949 (American Music)

George Lewis/Kid Thomas Ragtime Stompers (GHB) Crowned by those Penguins don'tcha know?!

Source company for the Jazzology, GHB and American Music sets is here: http://www.jazzology.com/index.php

Service is good, but you may be able to do better price-wise elsewhere.

I find this stuff fascinating and there's times when nothing else does the job.

But unless you're an complete anorak for it, there are limits. For the simple reason that the collective, overlapping repertoire of both scenes is relatively limited.

Thankfully I only have When The Saints on a few discs, but have a screed of Chinatown and Darktown Strutters Ball, just for instance.

Just jumping into some more of this stuff now Kenny. Thanks for the recommendations. Also wandering over to West Coast revivalist stuff -- Turk Murphy, Lu Watters, etc.

Hey Paps, I'm curious to know what specific albums of this kinda stuff you've picked up????

The Freeman Mosaic single I have on hand and was listening to earlier today. Love it. And I just ordered your Raymond Burke. Listening to samples now. Sounds exactly as you described.

I scooped up an armload of stuff last night after wandering through this and some other threads. Posted the following in the "What Have You Purchased" thread:

Lu Watters' Yerba Buena Jazz Band -- Originals & Ragtime: San Francisco Style, Vol. 2

Lu Watters' Yerba Buena Jazz Band -- Stomps, Etc. and the Blues: San Francisco Style, Vol. 3

George Lewis -- Trios and Bands

Turk Murphy's Jazz Band Favorites

Bunk Johnson -- King of the Blues

Tony Parenti and His New Orleanians

Bunk Johnson -- Bunk's Brass Band and Dance Band 1945

Just trying to familiarize myself with this West Coast revivalist stuff, but the Lu Watters and Turk Murphy discs sounded excellent. More faithful to early New Orleans music than perhaps the swing-influenced revivalist stuff that was coming out of Chicago? Dunno.

In any case, plowing ahead.

[Chuck Nessa]

Just trying to familiarize myself with this West Coast revivalist stuff, but the Lu Watters and Turk Murphy discs sounded excellent. More faithful to early New Orleans music than perhaps the swing-influenced revivalist stuff that was coming out of Chicago? Dunno.

In any case, plowing ahead.

All interesting stuff but want to disagree about the Chicago stuff. It wasn't really "swing-influenced revivalist". This music was documented in the early/mid '20s and was a white reaction/outgrowth to the music they heard. It was "new/derivative", not revivalist.

[kh1958]

A couple more worthy early jazz anthologies are on Yazoo, Jazz the World Forgot, volumes 1 and 2.

[kenny weir]

The Freeman Mosaic single I have on hand and was listening to earlier today. Love it. And I just ordered your Raymond Burke. Listening to samples now. Sounds exactly as you described.

I scooped up an armload of stuff last night after wandering through this and some other threads. Posted the following in the "What Have You Purchased" thread:

Lu Watters' Yerba Buena Jazz Band -- Originals & Ragtime: San Francisco Style, Vol. 2

Lu Watters' Yerba Buena Jazz Band -- Stomps, Etc. and the Blues: San Francisco Style, Vol. 3

George Lewis -- Trios and Bands

Turk Murphy's Jazz Band Favorites

Bunk Johnson -- King of the Blues

Tony Parenti and His New Orleanians

Bunk Johnson -- Bunk's Brass Band and Dance Band 1945

oh man, happy days!

[papsrus]

Just trying to familiarize myself with this West Coast revivalist stuff, but the Lu Watters and Turk Murphy discs sounded excellent. More faithful to early New Orleans music than perhaps the swing-influenced revivalist stuff that was coming out of Chicago? Dunno.

In any case, plowing ahead.

All interesting stuff but want to disagree about the Chicago stuff. It wasn't really "swing-influenced revivalist". This music was documented in the early/mid '20s and was a white reaction/outgrowth to the music they heard. It was "new/derivative", not revivalist.

Thanks Chuck. My understanding was exactly as you put it concerning the early and mid-'20s music in Chicago. I was thinking Chicago in the late-1930s, and into the 1940s, contemporaneous to this West Coast revivalist movement.

Would it be fair to describe traditional jazz happening in Chicago during this post-30s period as being, if not 'revivalist,' then more swing-oriented than the West Coast stuff going on at the same time?

I admit to some influence here from Wiki, where I sometimes find myself while tracking down new/old musicians. (See specifically the three sub-sections grouped together: "Chicago Style," "West Coast revival" and "New Orleans Traditional."

Gracias

[jeffcrom]

Would it be fair to describe traditional jazz happening in Chicago during this post-30s period as being, if not 'revivalist,' then more swing-oriented than the West Coast stuff going on at the same time?

.

I'd say that the Chicago guys (and those associated with them) were playing small-band jazz as they felt it, not looking back to New Orleans. In practice, the rhythm sections were closer to what we would call swing style; the ensembles were loose (no arrangements!), and they definitely liked four beats to the bar.

The West Coast bands tried to stay "truer" to the New Orleans gospel, somewhat naively, in my opinion. That's not to say that they didn't create some good music (I kind of like Turk Murphy, for example), but they were sometimes pointlessly archaic. A lot of Dixieland bands who think they sound like New Orleans bands really sound like their West Coast "echoes."

The New Orleans musicians who recorded starting in the 1940s - that's a whole 'nother thing. I'm fascinated by how the ensemble style of the New Orleans recordings from the forties, fifties, and early sixties differs so much from the "classic" New Orleans style of 1920s records by King Oliver, Jelly Roll Morton, etc. In those early records, the instrumental roles are pretty clearly defined - the trumpet (or cornet) played the lead; if there was a second trumpet, it harmonized with the first; the clarinet played high countermelodies and bridged the gaps between the trumpet phrases; the trombone played spare, quasi-bass countermelodies. In the "revival" recordings, there is a much more complex and subtle sharing of roles. At the beginning and end of a piece, the trumpet usually has the lead, but otherwise, any one of the front-line instruments can be playing a first, second, or third part. And they change roles spontaneously between choruses. It's really amazing, and in my opinion demonstrates as well as any other body of recordings how jazz can be populist music and art at the same time. You can really hear this in the long "Midnight Blues" from the Bunk Johnson album you got.

And there's an album from the 60's that is on G.H.B. - Kid Howard at the San Jacinto Hall - that just kills me. There's hardly a solo on the entire record - it's all ensemble, and almost every chorus has a different relationship of lead, second and third parts among the trumpet, clarinet, and trombone. And you know nobody talked about it beforehand - they just played.

Edited June 8, 2010 by jeffcrom

[kenny weir]

Would it be fair to describe traditional jazz happening in Chicago during this post-30s period as being, if not 'revivalist,' then more swing-oriented than the West Coast stuff going on at the same time?

.

I'd say that the Chicago guys (and those associated with them) were playing small-band jazz as they felt it, not looking back to New Orleans. In practice, the rhythm sections were closer to what we would call swing style; the ensembles were loose (no arrangements!), and they definitely liked four beats to the bar.

The West Coast bands tried to stay "truer" to the New Orleans gospel, somewhat naively, in my opinion. That's not to say that they didn't create some good music (I kind of like Turk Murphy, for example), but they were sometimes pointlessly archaic. A lot of Dixieland bands who think they sound like New Orleans bands really sound like their West Coast "echoes."

The New Orleans musicians who recorded starting in the 1940s - that's a whole 'nother thing. I'm fascinated by how the ensemble style of the New Orleans recordings from the forties, fifties, and early sixties differs so much from the "classic" New Orleans style of 1920s records by King Oliver, Jelly Roll Morton, etc. In those early records, the instrumental roles are pretty clearly defined - the trumpet (or cornet) played the lead; if there was a second trumpet, it harmonized with the first; the clarinet played high countermelodies and bridged the gaps between the trumpet phrases; the trombone played spare, quasi-bass countermelodies. In the "revival" recordings, there is a much more complex and subtle sharing of roles. At the beginning and end of a piece, the trumpet usually has the lead, but otherwise, any one of the front-line instruments can be playing a first, second, or third part. And they change roles spontaneously between choruses. It's really amazing, and in my opinion demonstrates as well as any other body of recordings how jazz can be populist music and art at the same time. You can really hear this in the long "Midnight Blues" from the Bunk Johnson album you got.

And there's an album from the 60's that is on G.H.B. - Kid Howard at the San Jacinto Hall - that just kills me. There's hardly a solo on the entire record - it's all ensemble, and almost every chorus has a different relationship of lead, second and third parts among the trumpet, clarinet, and trombone. And you know nobody talked about it beforehand - they just played.

Yes, I am fascinated by this changing dynamic, too. And remember, there were folks - such as Jim Robinson who were in involved in both.

Allen, Chuck, Chris, others may have more well-founded views ... but I wonder if the difference comes with the revival-era records often deliberately seeking a looser, jammier feel. As compared to, say, the more formal feel of the Oliver and Morgan sides - just to name two. In other words, I wonder if the revival-era funky ensemble sound had actually been around for some time - but simply not recorded. At times, it certainly sounds archaic enough - whether by nature or by design, I care not!

Edited June 8, 2010 by kenny weir

[papsrus]

Great post. Thank you Jeff.

... And you know nobody talked about it beforehand - they just played.