Trane and Monk, Detroit 1967

[Mark Stryker]

http://www.backstagegallery.com/photodetai...S-4105-016.html

Here's an evocative photo of Trane sitting in with Monk's quartet taken by Leni Sinclair in January 1967 at Cobo Hall in Detroit, just a few blocks from where I'm sitting at my desk at the Detroit Free Press. Does anyone know if audio from this performance exists?

I don't recall a mention of this episode in Lewis Porter's Coltrane biograophy, but I don't have the book handy. This appears to be a George Wein produced concert on Jan. 22, which according to a clip I dug up in our library, included the following bill: John Coltrane Quintet, Modern Jazz Quartet, Clark Terry and J.J. Johnson. The Coltrane obituary that the Free Press ran in July says that this concert was his last appearance in Detroit and that it drew "5,000 people who stayed past midnight to hear his music."

Our Coltrane clip file, by the way, also includes an "After Dark" column by one Ken Barnard from April 1963 that includes a brief interview apparently conducted that week during a gig at the Minor Key. Here are some excerpts and quotes:

Barnard writes: When he and his quartet opened their current engagement the Minor Key Tuesday night, Trane had a patient struggle with a new mouthpiece. "It had some kinks in it," Trane said, "and you're not going to be happy unless you get just the right sound. I had to be the master of that that thing and so we had a battle. I said to it, 'We'll just see now,' but it won!"

(about his early days): "I accepted work with all kinds of groups -- even if I didn't agree with their musical tenets, because I could learn something while I made a living."

"What I hear now is a movement to freer forms of expression. There's a challenge in this. But I never feel jazz is going in any one direction; it's going in all directions. Jazz is tied up with emotion, and there are all kinds of emotion to be expressed."

[jazzbo]

I would say it's unlikely that there is audio, or it would have turned up and circulated in the collector's arena, and been put out by one of the disconforme labels!

Edited November 27, 2009 by jazzbo

[JohnS]

Thanks for posting Mark. Nice photo, would be great to hear the musical result of this meeting.

Edited November 27, 2009 by JohnS

[mjzee]

Is there anyone alive who could be asked about the gig? Ben Riley? I wonder what Coltrane's 1967 style sounded like in the context of Monk's quartet. I would have loved to hear Coltrane and Charlie Rouse trading 4's!

Edited November 27, 2009 by mjzee

[JSngry]

amazing....who knew?

[marcello]

I read where John Sinclair talked about this concert.

Maybe it was in a Brilliant Corners interview?

[ghost of miles]

  marcello said:

I read where John Sinclair talked about this concert.

Maybe it was in a Brilliant Corners interview?

Yes--John Sinclair does talk about seeing this concert in the Brilliant Corners interview, collected in Sascha Feinstein's ASK ME NOW anthology. Iirc their (Monk/Coltrane) reunion came about because of somebody getting snowed in, but I don't have the book with me right now--will check when I get to work. I believe it's also discussed in the new edition of the Coltrane reference book.

Wait a sec--yes, it's discussed in Kelley's new Monk bio as well (which I do have at hand, sitting on my desk here at home). Bad weather prevented many of the artists Wein had booked from arriving for the concert, with the exception of Monk's group, Sarah Vaughan, and John Coltrane sans quintet (but w/Alice). I think he's quoting Wein's recent memoir:

  Quote

In an effort to salvage the evening, Wein asked Colgtrane to sit in with Monk's quartet--a request he was more than happy to oblige. In Wein's view, what happened that night was magical. Coltrane played brilliantly, but in a more traditional vein. He "blew like he was glad to be back home. And I never saw Thelonious more enthusiastic; having Coltrane with the band seemed to make him feel years younger. The energy they exchanged was obvious; they were on the same wavelength. The people cheered the triumphant set, and the evening was saved." After the concert, Wein tried to convince Coltrane to come back to his "roots," perhaps collaborate more often with Thelonious. He pondered the question for a moment and then replied, "You know, George... sometimes I don't know exactly what to do--whether I should play in my older style or do what I'm doing now. But, for the moment, I have to continue in this direction."

It turned out to be the last time these two giants played together. In six months, John Coltrane would be dead.

If anybody does have that new edition of the Coltrane reference book, it might say whether or not there's any known audio of this concert.

Edited November 27, 2009 by ghost of miles

[AllenLowe]

the photographer's name is Sinclair - his wife? Sister? Cousin?

[paul secor]

  AllenLowe said:

the photographer's name is Sinclair - his wife? Sister? Cousin?

Leni and John Sinclair were (are?) wife and husband, I believe.

[johnlitweiler]

  paul secor said:

  AllenLowe said:

the photographer's name is Sinclair - his wife? Sister? Cousin?

Leni and John Sinclair were (are?) wife and husband, I believe.

Yes, they were husband and wife. Interesting interview with her at http://www.backstagegallery.com/photograph...niSinclair.html. Mark, thank you for finding this photo.

[MartyJazz]

Reading this thread, I recalled that I had first read about a mid '60s reunion of Trane with Monk in J.C. Thomas' 1975 bio of Coltrane, titled CHASIN' THE TRANE: THE MUSIC AND MYSTIQUE OF JOHN COLTRANE. Specifically on p206 of the hard cover edition is the following excerpt (note the date of Feb '66, not Jan '67):

"George Wein, the producer of the Newport Jazz Festival, also puts on other concerts of a similar nature. He remembers one affair in particular where Coltrane and Monk shared the bill, their first appearance together in almost ten years. 'This was in February 1966, at Cobo Hall in Detroit.....we got hit with an all day snowstorm, but surprisingly enough we had a crowd of 11,000 out of 15,000 capacity. Monk and his band made it, but John's rhythm section was snowed in and only John and Alice were there. Monk went on first, but by the second half John's men still hadn't showed up and I was getting worried.'

In order to alleviate such worries, Wein asked Coltrane if he would mind playing with Monk to close out the concert. Monk, hearing this, immediately danced his approval and gave his former sideman an affectionate hug, while the saxophonist nodded his assent. They played mostly Monk's music, in particular those tunes from their 1957 collaboration. For the last few numbers, Alice sat in on piano, joining her husband for some of his own songs.

Afterward in the dressing room, Wein, who'd really enjoyed Monk and Coltrane together, thanked the saxophonist and said, 'I'm rather glad your rhythm section didn't make it tonight.'

'I thought you'd feel that way,' Coltrane replied. Then, he said, reflectively, 'You know, I often wonder whether what I'm doing now is the right way to play. Sometimes I feel this is the way I want to go, but other times I'd rather return to the way I used to play.' He paused, adding, 'But for now, I think I'll continue in the direction I'm going and see what happens.'"

I've always wondered about how accurate the above story is, in particular whether Wein really had the nerve to say to Coltrane how "glad" he was that Trane's rhythm section of that time didn't make the gig.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

wait 1967?!?!?!

NO

WAY

and at COBO HALL!?!?

Coltrane played ARENA SHOWS!?

[7/4]

  chewy said:

wait 1967?!?!?!

NO

WAY

and at COBO HALL!?!?

Coltrane played ARENA SHOWS!?

Yeah man...and he was doing it long before Kiss and Aerosmith.

[Mark Stryker]

Thanks to all for filling in various details. Now that I've had a chance to check a few things at home, I see that the chronology at the end of Porter's Coltrane biography, citing Thomas, also dates this concert to February 1966. So does Wein when he recounts the story with a few more details and more or less the same quotes in his recent memoir, "Myself Among Others" (page 263).

It seems clear, however, that pace Kelley, the clips I found in the Free Press library and the date on Sinclair's photo, this concert actually happened in January 1967. Good God, what I wouldn't give to hear what that sounded like.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Mark Stryker

[JSngry]

  jazzbo said:

I would say it's unlikely that there is audio, or it would have turned up and circulated in the collector's arena, and been put out by one of the disconforme labels!

I've spoke to somebody who would know if there was any anywhere, and the answer is not yet, and unlikely indeed that there is.

Unlikely does not mean impossible, but...

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

yea Jsngry-- this is like totally pre-LIVE BULLET! lol!

[GregK]

According to the John Coltrane Reference, it happened Sun, Jan 22, 8pm. All seats reserved, $3/$4/$5/$6 (Detroit Free Press advertisement, Jan 17, 1967, p 6-C). Coltrane sat in, then Alice replaced Monk. The commentary states that Wein's memory was off, as he said the concert was in Feb 1966, and there is no record of any concert in Detroit that month with Coltrane, and further, it was unlikely that a snowstorm was the reason for Coltrane's band to miss the show. The weather was unusually mild that weekend, with temps in the 50s; it's possible that thick fog resulting from the warm air chilling over the cold snow covered ground (according to the Free Press, Mon, Jan 23, 1967, p 9-D).

No mention of any audio from the concert.

[Shrdlu]

Thanks, Mark. Great pic. Copied to desktop.

[Guy Berger]

  MartyJazz said:

'I thought you'd feel that way,' Coltrane replied. Then, he said, reflectively, 'You know, I often wonder whether what I'm doing now is the right way to play. Sometimes I feel this is the way I want to go, but other times I'd rather return to the way I used to play.' He paused, adding, 'But for now, I think I'll continue in the direction I'm going and see what happens.'"

I've always wondered about how accurate the above story is, in particular whether Wein really had the nerve to say to Coltrane how "glad" he was that Trane's rhythm section of that time didn't make the gig.

Interesting. My memory is rusty but I recall reading Red Garland citing a similar conversation between him and Trane. Would be interested in more discussion.

More than anything it gives a sign of Trane's self-critical, introspective nature.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

yes very interesting

[RJ Spangler]

Leni & John, while estranged, are still cool. Leni has abunch of myspace pages where she sells her pix -- she really is quite talented. Her Train portrait is a must have.

[aj lacourse]

  On 11/27/2009 at 8:09 PM, ghost of miles said:

  marcello said:

I read where John Sinclair talked about this concert.

Maybe it was in a Brilliant Corners interview?

Yes--John Sinclair does talk about seeing this concert in the Brilliant Corners interview, collected in Sascha Feinstein's ASK ME NOW anthology. Iirc their (Monk/Coltrane) reunion came about because of somebody getting snowed in, but I don't have the book with me right now--will check when I get to work. I believe it's also discussed in the new edition of the Coltrane reference book.

Wait a sec--yes, it's discussed in Kelley's new Monk bio as well (which I do have at hand, sitting on my desk here at home). Bad weather prevented many of the artists Wein had booked from arriving for the concert, with the exception of Monk's group, Sarah Vaughan, and John Coltrane sans quintet (but w/Alice). I think he's quoting Wein's recent memoir:

  Quote

In an effort to salvage the evening, Wein asked Colgtrane to sit in with Monk's quartet--a request he was more than happy to oblige. In Wein's view, what happened that night was magical. Coltrane played brilliantly, but in a more traditional vein. He "blew like he was glad to be back home. And I never saw Thelonious more enthusiastic; having Coltrane with the band seemed to make him feel years younger. The energy they exchanged was obvious; they were on the same wavelength. The people cheered the triumphant set, and the evening was saved." After the concert, Wein tried to convince Coltrane to come back to his "roots," perhaps collaborate more often with Thelonious. He pondered the question for a moment and then replied, "You know, George... sometimes I don't know exactly what to do--whether I should play in my older style or do what I'm doing now. But, for the moment, I have to continue in this direction."

It turned out to be the last time these two giants played together. In six months, John Coltrane would be dead.

If anybody does have that new edition of the Coltrane reference book, it might say whether or not there's any known audio of this concert.

[aj lacourse]

  On 11/28/2009 at 8:08 AM, Mark Stryker said:

Thanks to all for filling in various details. Now that I've had a chance to check a few things at home, I see that the chronology at the end of Porter's Coltrane biography, citing Thomas, also dates this concert to February 1966. So does Wein when he recounts the story with a few more details and more or less the same quotes in his recent memoir, "Myself Among Others" (page 263).

It seems clear, however, that pace Kelley, the clips I found in the Free Press library and the date on Sinclair's photo, this concert actually happened in January 1967. Good God, what I wouldn't give to hear what that sounded like.

I actually attended this jazz concert back in high school. Pretty sure it was on a Sunday night cause we didn't get home till 2 am & thought about driving straight to school & sleeping in the lot ( couldn't relax after 5+ hours of glorious music anyway). Before recalling how Coltrane sounded, let me set the scene. Four downriver boys barely in high school somehow got a car so we could make the trek north. We had been listening to A Love Supreme endlessly & needed to hear Trane live or regret it forever. My recollection is the line up was something like this...Jack Brokenshaw with Bess Bonier opened & played a while ( perhaps stalling for the other musicians to show up). Clark Terry's group was early & did an audience desired set with Clark doing his "mumbles" scatting. MJQ was somewhere in the mix & were impeccable(and dressed better than I had seen any group of men before).Now I may need help on this one(since I've lost touch with the other 3 guys), The Dave Brubeck Quartet seems correct. I haven't seen any mention of them so I hope somebody can confirm this. I just have a very strong memory of the drummer Joe Morello & could not believe someone blind could play so well. I think there was a trombone group ( Curtis Fuller or ?). Next was Sarah Vaughan or Monk, but pretty sure they were back to back.I remember a lively exchange between Sarah & Monk like they were the best of friends. I know those reading this are thinking " no way this lineup" PLUS Coltrane too. It was awesome. Now the icing...I had totally forgotten,till I read it here he was backed up by Monk's group. I'm nor sure this was announced at the time but it was seamless.Not everyone there had come to see Trane but most waited ( Cobo was close to a sellout though some seats might have been closed off). Trane walks out on stage and just starts playing "Nothingness" to most everyones startled ears. It was not well received with a few boo's, some laughter, but mostly confused silence. Now I was a Coltrane fan & even I had to work to enjoy what was being played. It was at least a 15 minute version with little relief from the sax. With no introduction, the second & last tune started more to the crowds liking. It was a long lead in to My Favorite Things, which most of the audience didn't recognize. When he finally reached it the crowd went nuts. I can still feel 40+ years later the pure joy of his playing. This was a very extended version with all players getting ample time to swing. Trane finished & the crowd erupted to their feet with applause. He took a quick bow and was done. Truly memorable. Please if anyone can confirm or deny my recollections, I'd love to hear. A.J.

[John L]

Thanks for those recollections, ajay. It is interesting that they seem to be a bit at odds with the other descriptions above of Coltrane "sitting in with Monk's quartet," which would almost certainly imply that they would be playing Monk's music, particularly as Coltane had an intimate familiarity of it from his past work with Monk. Your description, on the other hand, has Monk possibly backing Coltrane on a set of late Coltrane material. Since it was also written that Alice Coltrane stepped in for Monk at some point, perhaps that is the part of the concert that you recall?

[Tom 1960]

Damn! Only here could you find someone who actually attended that show. Thanks for your recollections, Ajay. Even if they might be blurred from the passage of time.