"Jazz" -- new book by Gary Giddins & Scott DeVeaux

[Larry Kart]

Picked this up at the library yesterday, was leafing through, and was stopped dead in my tracks by this (p. 26):

"Jazz concepts of form are derived from African music, where improvisation happens within a cycle. In Africa, the cycle is rhythmic. In jazz, the cycle is know as the chorus, and it involves two dimensions: rhythm and harmony. Each tune is a fixed rhythmic length (twelve or sixteen measures, for example) and has its own harmonic progression. Moreover, the two are interlinked." Etc.

Leaving aside the oddness/awkwardness to my mind of the phrase "a fixed rhythmic length" (what they mean is "a fixed number of measures"), do they really believe that chorus structure in jazz, with its linkage between rhythm and harmony, is essentially derived from African music? This with the abundance of symmetrical and semi-symmetrical, chorus-structure/ song-form models that can be found in all sorts of, for want of better terms, "Western" or non-African cultures, going way back? Or are they plumping sotto voce for a "Black Athenae" view of things, where everything is really African but the facts have been suppressed?

[Christiern]

You cannot level such critique at this little giant, who follows the path beaten by Leonard Feather and refers to himself as "The world's pre-eminent jazz critic."

Larry, you are totally out of line here!

It was when Gary cast his wee shadow over me (at a cocktail party, I believe) that I learned the true meaning of humility.

Apropos unassertiveness, the door is always open at http://stomp-off.blogspot.com

[Chuck Nessa]

Reads like an idea by committee.

[carnivore]

Picked this up at the library yesterday, was leafing through, and was stopped dead in my tracks by this (p. 26):

"Jazz concepts of form are derived from African music, where improvisation happens within a cycle. In Africa, the cycle is rhythmic. In jazz, the cycle is know as the chorus, and it involves two dimensions: rhythm and harmony. Each tune is a fixed rhythmic length (twelve or sixteen measures, for example) and has its own harmonic progression. Moreover, the two are interlinked." Etc.

Leaving aside the oddness/awkwardness to my mind of the phrase "a fixed rhythmic length" (what they mean is "a fixed number of measures"), do they really believe that chorus structure in jazz, with its linkage between rhythm and harmony, is essentially derived from African music? This with the abundance of symmetrical and semi-symmetrical, chorus-structure/ song-form models that can be found in all sorts of, for want of better terms, "Western" or non-African cultures, going way back? Or are they plumping sotto voce for a "Black Athenae" view of things, where everything is really African but the facts have been suppressed?

The last time I looked, the performance of improvisation in jazz entailed, for a significant part of its history, utiilization of existing popular songs of varying measure length - from Darktown Strutters' Ball to I'll Remember April, from Sweet Sue to Night and Day - I Got Rhythm to Always. At least some of the time, the melody line was integral to the performance and would surely constitute a third 'dimension'

I don't think African music is, or was noted for any strong and memorable melodic content, at least in the idiom of the songs I've just cited. Harmonic sequence first? or the tune? In the case of Irving Berlin I understand that he knew little about harmony - he wrote the tunes but someone else then figured out the chord sequence.

When we were getting our chops around Body and Soul or All the Things You Are I don't think any of us thought we were plumbing the depths of structures derived from Africa. Pity we hadn't known, it would have made all the difference!

Edited November 24, 2009 by carnivore

[Tom Storer]

This is a book for young people? I always find it awkward when authors attempt to make easily digestible pedagogical talking points out of messy, blurred, exception-ridden realities. It reminds me of PowerPoint presentations. "Just have a look at these few bullet points, then you'll have learned something." Not always.

[Larry Kart]

You cannot level such critique at this little giant, who follows the path beaten by Leonard Feather and refers to himself as "The world's pre-eminent jazz critic."

Larry, you are totally out of line here!

[JSngry]

Does Giddins know African music well enough to comment on it's influence on American music?

When is his Fela bio coming out?

Seems to me like he knows what he thinks he is trying to say, but not much more.

[kh1958]

You cannot level such critique at this little giant, who follows the path beaten by Leonard Feather and refers to himself as "The world's pre-eminent jazz critic."

Larry, you are totally out of line here!

It was when Gary cast his wee shadow over me (at a cocktail party, I believe) that I learned the true meaning of humility.

Apropos unassertiveness, the door is always open at http://stomp-off.blogspot.com

That's a very interesting account of your trip to New Orleans for Riverside. Thanks.

[JSngry]

Underestimating the African influence on America in general, and therefore jazz, is a mistake. Euro-centric vanity mocks the notion, but oh well about that. It is what it is, and what it is is real (and to be clear, it is not the only influence to be considered).

But what Giddins says is so goofy as to be its own mistake.

When we were getting our chops around Body and Soul or All the Things You Are I don't think any of us thought we were plumbing the depths of structures derived from Africa. Pity we hadn't known, it would have made all the difference!

If you didn't swing and/or had a rigid relationship to the bar line & pitch, yeah, it would have.

[paul secor]

Don't have the book, but did Giddins or DeVeaux (or both) write what Larry quoted? Not clear from the initial post.

[Larry Kart]

Don't have the book, but did Giddins or DeVeaux (or both) write what Larry quoted? Not clear from the initial post.

They're billed as co-authors. Don't see how to tell if one of them in particular was in charge in the passage I quoted. My guess would be that they both were.

[AllenLowe]

yikes. Strange stuff. Was thinking of trying to reissue Devilin Tune (the book). Now I may have to just to save the world.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I don't think African music is, or was noted for any strong and memorable melodic content,

West African music is very melodic - and memorably so. The entire art of traditional musicians from the Sahel/Sudan regions is remembering melodies - not improvisation.

at least in the idiom of the songs I've just cited.

Saved yourelf there, Carnivore

MG

[AllenLowe]

well, John Szwed once told me that there are parts of Africa with concert band traditions - lots of horns and orchestras.

Edited November 24, 2009 by AllenLowe

[carnivore]

I don't think African music is, or was noted for any strong and memorable melodic content,

West African music is very melodic - and memorably so. The entire art of traditional musicians from the Sahel/Sudan regions is remembering melodies - not improvisation.

at least in the idiom of the songs I've just cited.

Saved yourelf there, Carnivore

MG

[Christiern]

You cannot level such critique at this little giant, who follows the path beaten by Leonard Feather and refers to himself as "The world's pre-eminent jazz critic."

Larry, you are totally out of line here!

It was when Gary cast his wee shadow over me (at a cocktail party, I believe) that I learned the true meaning of humility.

Apropos unassertiveness, the door is always open at http://stomp-off.blogspot.com

That's a very interesting account of your trip to New Orleans for Riverside. Thanks.

Thanks for reading it.

[Lazaro Vega]

My word what a technical mess o'stuff for that session in New Orleans. Amazed that it even worked!

Have you written to Concord about that fading from the old recording to the same guys playing in the present? You know who does that now? That Jim Cullum band on Riverwalk, Live From the Landing. They do that all the time on their program. I bet they'd get a kick out of knowing about your having done it with those musicians so many years ago.

[Christiern]

I didn't know that Cullum was doing that sort of thing—I bet it's effective. That said, "fade" is the wrong description for what we did in N.O., the live band was listening and little by little picking up the tune—it was their fumbling around to find the tune, chords, etc., then suddenly getting it and bursting forth with it. Imagine a faded old photograph going from monochrome to color and from one to three dimensions as you view it.

It's good to learn that some of my old Organissimo friends are paying my blog a visit. I will soon post the follow-up Chicago nightmare.

[brownie]

I won't be looking for the new Giddins/DeVeaux book!

But I will be looking for new installments in the Christern blog. A fascinating site

[Larry Kart]

It's good to learn that some of my old Organissimo friends are paying my blog a visit. I will soon post the follow-up Chicago nightmare.

Great place, Chris. Am looking forward (shudder) to the Chicago nightmare.

[John L]

Don't have the book, but did Giddins or DeVeaux (or both) write what Larry quoted? Not clear from the initial post.

In fact, I was a bit surprised that people immediately attributed this quote to Giddins. I would have guessed that it came from DeVeaux. Giddins has a lighter, more journalistic approach in his writing, while DeVeaux can go off on those kind of academic/iconoclastic tangents.

[Larry Kart]

Don't have the book, but did Giddins or DeVeaux (or both) write what Larry quoted? Not clear from the initial post.

In fact, I was a bit surprised that people immediately attributed this quote to Giddins. I would have guessed that it came from DeVeaux. Giddins has a lighter, more journalistic approach in his writing, while DeVeaux can go off on those kind of academic/iconoclastic tangents.

Just to be clear, the original poster (that would be me) identified them as co-authors. Also, I wouldn't call the quoted passage "iconoclastic." Unless it's based on a reading of the evidence that is valid but is news to me, the idea that the cyclic forms of jazz, in which rhythm and harmony are interlinked (i.e. chorus-structure music) "are derived from African music" struck me as a possible (though not for sure) instance of a certain sort of political correctness. I'm not saying that so-called African retentions in jazz and a lot of other American musics are not for real, abundant, and crucial but that with chorus-structure forms lying thick upon the ground here and in Europe for a very long time, it's unlikely that in jazz such forms were "derived" from African models.

[johnlitweiler]

IIRC, what Giddins and DeVeaux call aspects of African music are among the things that Sun Ra and company, in the film "The Cry of Jazz," cited as evidence of the decadent European music that was threatening the existence of jazz ca. 1958 or so.

[Larry Kart]

IIRC, what Giddins and DeVeaux call aspects of African music are among the things that Sun Ra and company, in the film "The Cry of Jazz," cited as evidence of the decadent European music that was threatening the existence of jazz ca. 1958 or so.

There ya go.

[John L]

Don't have the book, but did Giddins or DeVeaux (or both) write what Larry quoted? Not clear from the initial post.

In fact, I was a bit surprised that people immediately attributed this quote to Giddins. I would have guessed that it came from DeVeaux. Giddins has a lighter, more journalistic approach in his writing, while DeVeaux can go off on those kind of academic/iconoclastic tangents.

Just to be clear, the original poster (that would be me) identified them as co-authors. Also, I wouldn't call the quoted passage "iconoclastic." Unless it's based on a reading of the evidence that is valid but is news to me, the idea that the cyclic forms of jazz, in which rhythm and harmony are interlinked (i.e. chorus-structure music) "are derived from African music" struck me as a possible (though not for sure) instance of a certain sort of political correctness. I'm not saying that so-called African retentions in jazz and a lot of other American musics are not for real, abundant, and crucial but that with chorus-structure forms lying thick upon the ground here and in Europe for a very long time, it's unlikely that in jazz such forms were "derived" from African models.

Sorry. I should have put "iconoclastic" in quotation marks, as in a deliberate attempt to be iconoclastic.