"DRUMMER'S CORNER"

[randissimo]

Ok.... Here it is.... A place where drummers or anybody interested in drumming can share concepts, questions, ideas, etc...

[randissimo]

I have some of my students playing the Swiss Army Triplet instead of the Flam Accent #1. I find they can get greater speed, and can more easily play brighter tempos..

I've heard Tony Williams play them in a number of combinations.. One I like is the right flam on floor tom & snare, 3rd stroke w/ bass drum & right hand on cymbal...

I obviously like the Single Flam Mill also, and see it as the 1st cousin of the Swiss Army Triplet. After all, you're just adding one extra stoke...

Swing a ding ding!

[neveronfriday]

A welcome addition to the board.

Any member here who plays electronic drums/percussion?

[randissimo]

A welcome addition to the board.

Any member here who plays electronic drums/percussion?

Though I have fooled around with electronic drums I am pretty much an old fashioned advocate of the acoustic "trapset" or "drumkit" ..

[neveronfriday]

Well, I would have loved to stick to my old Sonor Bubinga kit, but I live in an apartment. In order to still be able to play (and practice) regularly at home, I went the electronic way.

So, I strung together two expanded Roland V-Drum kits (expanded, TDW-1 with V-Cymbal Control), fiddled around with two racks until I ended up with one plus lots of Sonor Delite hardware (because of crosstalk problems). All of that (plus a CD player) is hooked up to a Mackie 1202 VLZ and I'm pretty much free to play with anyone I like.

If I have friends over for some casual jam or practice run, they can plug into the Mackie and the whole session is served up via a bunch of Sennheiser 545s.

Not your typical jazz setup, but workable in a situation like that.

All of that can never compare to an acoustic kit, but it does offer quite a bit of interesting possibilities, the most interesting of which is simply hooking the thing up to my PC and jamming (in real time) with people on the other side of the globe. Once you get the timing issues worked out, it can be a real blast.

Cheers.

[randissimo]

Well, I would have loved to stick to my old Sonor Bubinga kit, but I live in an apartment. In order to still be able to play (and practice) regularly at home, I went the electronic way.

So, I strung together two expanded Roland V-Drum kits (expanded, TDW-1 with V-Cymbal Control), fiddled around with two racks until I ended up with one plus lots of Sonor Delite hardware (because of crosstalk problems). All of that (plus a CD player) is hooked up to a Mackie 1202 VLZ and I'm pretty much free to play with anyone I like.

If I have friends over for some casual jam or practice run, they can plug into the Mackie and the whole session is served up via a bunch of Sennheiser 545s.

Not your typical jazz setup, but workable in a situation like that.

All of that can never compare to an acoustic kit, but it does offer quite a bit of interesting possibilities, the most interesting of which is simply hooking the thing up to my PC and jamming (in real time) with people on the other side of the globe. Once you get the timing issues worked out, it can be a real blast.

Cheers.

What you're doing sounds very interesting...

It certainly does open up a different world of possibilities...

Especially the opportunities of jammin' on the PC with people on the other side of the globe!..

[neveronfriday]

What you're doing sounds very interesting...

It certainly does open up a different world of possibilities...

Especially the opportunities of jammin' on the PC with people on the other side of the globe!..

That part of it is indeed lots of fun once in a while, but can also be quite demanding.

First of all, you need an extremely fast up- and downlink connection (we have access to a satellite one through lines an experimental new media museum nearby is using for similar projects (a while back they coordinated a global concert which was also broadcast live on the Net), you need quite a bit (of sometimes still very buggy) hard- and software (the important element is a clocking device which nails each stream to the "beat", but you also need "receiving" devices such as keyboards or other electronic instruments, at least in the setup we're using).

Secondly, you have to approach this stuff differently. There is no way you can "swing" a beat (you need to be right on the click, so to speak, and if you are not, the software will iron things out, at least at present) and interaction between musicians has to take place before and after the session (adding a simultaneous live video stream would be the way to go, but that's too much strain on the often buggy up- or downlink ... and the participants' wallets).

Still, once in a while it is amazing what other people come up with. It will have to, for the time being, remain completely experimental, but that is the fun of it. You'll never know what's going to happen next, no matter how detailed the preparation was.

Cheers!

Edited November 28, 2003 by deus62

[jazzbo]

I played a Simmons kit for several years in rock and blues-rock bands here in town. During this time I couldn't afford two good kits, so I sold a funky old cheapo acoustic kit to help buy it, and it was all I had til later when I bought a Sonor set up.

I actually enjoyed it; learning to play was a trip and an education, and set up for gigs was so easy. Also when the guitarist would get too loud, I would roll the volume control and goose his ass, and he'd calm down. THAT came in very handy. I ran a Gallien Kruger guitar amp AND a Sunn bass amp. I was not generally loud at all, but the sound was rich.

Generally I used blasticks, because the heads on this Simmons could make your writst ache hard if you pretended they were regular Ambassador heads with spring back! And with time I learned how to hit the head to get dynamics from the system. It wasn't cheap, but it was troublefree for years, and a joy for recording: you could record directly into a tape deck in stereo, or record from mikes, or a combination of both!

[neveronfriday]

Yeah, the good old Simmons. They actually had some very good ideas that time and the last kit they put out was stunning (I recall Bill Bruford demonstrating it on the German TV series "Super Drumming" ... that was a blast).

Compared to what's possible today, the pads were the negative side ... as you said, one had to develop quite a different technique to actually get the dynamics. More like lightly stroking the pads than actually hitting them (although the latter was also lots of fun).

Although the new Roland isn't anywhere close to acoustic drums, the pads are a huge improvement (although they are known to have a "dead spot" right at the center which you can actually "tweak" away).

I also recall an old Dynacord (German) spacey kit with weird-shaped pads and a futuristic stand. The sound wasn't all that hot, but it's something I contemplated way back when (same problem: living in an apartment surrounded by neighbours).

I'm glad I waited all that time for the Roland kit, although they have a virtual monopoly and parts are grossly overpriced. That thing is really damn good, once you learn how to tweak it properly ... and that might take 6 to 12 months (easily). If anyone is interested, check out the relevant posts on vdrums.com ... many fine drummers and engineers can give you the minutest details when it comes to getting the most out of your kit. If you follow their advice and have time to experiment, you can improve sensitivity and dynamics in such a way as to get a kit which sounds a 100% better than when played with factory settings.

I've done some serious work with my kit and if recorded properly (sans the cymbals, which just have to be replaced by a real set), the sound is simply stunning. And the (rare) smile you get from the sound engineer when you're done setting up with him in about 15 minutes is a sight to behold.

And then show him how you can switch to any one of 50 kits within 2 seconds.

I'll shut up now.

Cheers!

[Dan Gould]

My only possible contribution to a drum thread:

How can you tell the drum riser is even?

Drool coming out of both sides of his mouth.

[Guest WINGY (I STAY BOMBED)]

I have a shitload of drums in my attic.

Back in 1970 when I was with Buddy DeFranco's Glenn Miller Orch. I got an endorsement with Ludwig.

Later on when I was with Maynard Ferguson I got an endorsement with Slingerland and Zildjian.

Believe it or not, I recently purchased a new set of MAPEX Drums for $600 tax included. It's a 4 piece set with and 18" Bass Drum, 8X12, 14X14 and 5 1/2 X14.

I used them on my latest big band recording two weeks ago.

I never did get a set of Gretsch in part thanks to Randall....you bastard.

WINGY

[neveronfriday]

Did you have a favourite set amongst all of those?

[Guest WINGY (I STAY BOMBED)]

Did you have a favourite set amongst all of those?

DEUS,

I presume your question is directed at me.

I have the Ludwig set that was a two bass drum outfit that I used on the Glenn Miller London recording to which JSangry referrred and I cut it back to one B.D. on the CHAMELEON album with Maynard. I like that set but that recording with M.F. kills the sound of the drums. As I stated in my original liner notes draft, they put a sandbag on the front head of my bass drum. That really sucked but that was what was going down in the '70's. In person that set really talked.

When I got the endorsement with Slingerland I used those drums for the remainder of my tenure with Maynard and on into my time with Woody.

I didn't care for them that much, which is probably why I tried to talk Randall out of his set of Gretsch. That set was used on the Woody Herman 40th Anniversary Concert at Carnegie Hall - RCA recording I did get a set of Slingerland for small group playing that I still like to this day. It's an 18, 12, 14 & 5 1/2 X 14.

I gotta say that these new MAPEX cans really project. All wood drums and the hardware came with them, so for the $600 I think I got my money's worth.

WING

[neveronfriday]

Wingy,

the only Mapex set I've ever tried was one from their their rather costly "Deep Forest" line. I liked those, but I guess they're not all that representative of what Mapex usually sounds like. This set was one in Walnut and had a very distinct sound, probably due to the rather thin shells. That one was definetely one for a drummer looking for a more unique sound. But they did pack quite a punch.

It's only about a week ago I accidently stumbled over a company from Italy (Le Soprano ... quel surprise) (again, darn expensive stuff) which produces fascinating sets:

This one is their "New Vintage" line which is an attempt to reproduce classic-sounding drums. Quite a blast to play.

This one I found most fascinating though: It's their "Prima Original" line. Looks cool, sounds stunning and fits like a glove.

But, their handmade stuff costs an arm and a leg (the bassdrum, as far as I recall, is yours for around $850, or so).

If I ever get around to purchasing acoustic drums again, I might well go the Mapex or similar way. If I compare newer budget- or mid-price drums with my old, old, old Tama Swingstar (way back in school), quality standards have risen dramatically since then.

Cheers!

[Guest WINGY (I STAY BOMBED)]

DEUS,

It's kind of an interesting story but I got these cans as a result of a bass player friend of mine named TOM BRIGANDI who hit the N.Y. State Lottery for 4 Million dollars.

He bought a set at cost from a friend of his who owns a music store.

I used those drums on one of his recordings with Eric Alexander and the "LATE NIGHT NEW YORK BAND - AFTER HOURS"

http://www.whodat.com/audio/dansextet/dimperio.htm

As a result of that I got a set from the same store at the same price.

I think they cost a helluva lot more digit than that but they are well made and can project. Since I rarely play in public anymore I've never used them on a gig.

I have of late refused to play for spectators...I guess you could call me the Glenn Gould of Jazz. I did use them on my latest recording and as previously stated, I dug'em.

WING

Edited November 28, 2003 by WINGY (I STAY BOMBED)

[neveronfriday]

Wingy,

Am listening to the 1:30 min. of "Sharkey".

Nice tune.

The drums sound quite resonant. Do you have clear skins on the toms, or is it just the compression of the sound file?

[randissimo]

I have a shitload of drums in my attic.

Back in 1970 when I was with Buddy DeFranco's Glenn Miller Orch. I got an endorsement with Ludwig.

Later on when I was with Maynard Ferguson I got an endorsement with Slingerland and Zildjian.

Believe it or not, I recently purchased a new set of MAPEX Drums for $600 tax included. It's a 4 piece set with and 18" Bass Drum, 8X12, 14X14 and 5 1/2 X14.

I used them on my latest big band recording two weeks ago.

I never did get a set of Gretsch in part thanks to Randall....you bastard.

WINGY

[CJ Shearn]

For any drummers in here

In the 70's from right about the time of his death, even though Tony Williams used K's, I never liked the sound of them compared to his old K ride sound with Miles, the nice stick tones and beautiful dark ring, Tony's K's from this period (as heard on all the VSOP Quintet albums for example) were way too bright and splashy. Was this a consequence of his overall sound becoming more rockish at that point, the size of the sticks, or the fact that he often used the fat end of the stick to hit the cymbals? (as seen in the One Night With Blue Note DVD) Weren't K's being produced in America around the 70's as opposed to being produced in Turkey? Never really cared for Tony's dot heads either although I still love the playing. Those dot heads seem to just make the sound so damp and devoid of any snap and resonance, I think the dot heads of his sounded a tad better on live records as opposed to studio stuff.

I recently read a Downbeat article last month with Jack DeJohnette where he was talking about thedryness of his Sabians (they remind me of trashcans sort of) and he said he lost about 25% of the hearing in his left ear from playing really bright sounding crash cymbals, that with a horn player in front on top of everything else it really has a huge effect on hearing. Of course that man just plays the hell out of his kit engaging in a constant, rolling dialogue with a soloist, also he's been one of the best at briging out really unique colors out of his kit. But do you think the choice of such a dry cymbal sound (specifically ride) is a result of something that isn't as taxing on the ears, once hearing has deteriorated from playing in a certain way or context?

Edited November 28, 2003 by CJ Shearn

[Guest WINGY (I STAY BOMBED)]

Wingy,

Am listening to the 1:30 min. of "Sharkey".

Nice tune.

The drums sound quite resonant. Do you have clear skins on the toms, or is it just the compression of the sound file?

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention another set of drums.

I was working at Roseland Ballroom in NYC in the 80's and the stage manager said that years ago some drummer with Ozzie Nelson's Band had left a set of Premier Drums there and they had been sitting around for years. He told me to take them.

Those are the cans on "SHARKEY" and the heads are batter.

I use those cans on most gigs as I don't bother with cases and they just get beat up pretty well. I think that Jimmy Cobb used that very same set on the Miles at Carnegie Hall with Gil Evans. At least in the photo they look like the same set of cans.

WING

[randissimo]

For any drummers in here

In the 70's from right about the time of his death, even though Tony Williams used K's, I never liked the sound of them compared to his old K ride sound with Miles, the nice stick tones and beautiful dark ring, Tony's K's from this period (as heard on all the VSOP Quintet albums for example) were way too bright and splashy.  Was this a consequence of his overall sound becoming more rockish at that point, the size of the sticks, or the fact that he often used the fat end of the stick to hit the cymbals? (as seen in the One Night With Blue Note DVD)  Weren't K's being produced in America around the 70's as opposed to being produced in Turkey?  Never really cared for Tony's dot heads either although I still love the playing.  Those dot heads seem to just make the sound so damp and devoid of any snap and resonance, I think the dot heads of his sounded a tad better on live records as opposed to studio stuff.

I recently read a Downbeat article last month with Jack DeJohnette where he was talking about thedryness of his Sabians (they remind me of trashcans sort of)  and he said he lost about 25% of the hearing in his left ear from playing really bright sounding crash cymbals, that with a horn player  in front on top of everything else it really has a huge effect on hearing.  Of course that man just plays the hell out of his kit engaging in a constant, rolling dialogue with a soloist, also he's been one of the best at briging out really unique colors out of his kit.  But do you think the choice of such a dry cymbal sound (specifically ride) is a result of something that isn't as taxing on the ears, once hearing has deteriorated from playing in a certain way or context?

CJ,

Nice post! I loved the approach Tony Williams had in those early days with Jackie McLean and later Miles.. He went through a big transformation when he left Miles. He went from the small Gretsch kit tuned fairly high, with the dark K's & what I believe were probably rough coat ambassador heads, to the larger sizes with black dot heads and drums tuned much lower.

Being one of the early pioneers of Fusion, he developed a different touch that had to compete with the electric instruments and amps.. I think this forever changed his touch from the lighter and dynamic touch he had in his early years. Even when he would go back and do acoustic jazz gigs his touch was more heavy handed.

The first time I saw Tony was in 1975 when he was touring with Alan Holdsworth and the "Believe It" band.

The last time I saw Tony was at Yoshi's in Oakland, Ca in 1988 and he had a 24 inch bass drum with 12 & 13 inch toms on top and 3 floor toms.. His cymbals were very bright, and he opened the set with his incredibly fast and smooth single strokes, morphing into a dramatic climax with Swiss Army Triplet combinations off the drums and cymbals...

Though there are many many others old and new I love to listen to, I think Jack DeJohnette is for me, the most inspirational drummer of them all. He has an incredible sense of composition, creative phrasing, and a wide range of dynamics when he plays.

I can relate to the loss of hearing. I have lost about 25 - 30 % in my left ear. I first noticed it back in 91 when I was laying on my right side with the window opened and could not hear the birds chattering outside. I think this effects the way I hear my cymbals as well as the choices I make when I pick out cymbals.

Right now I'm using an 20" Istanbul Mel Lewis ride w/ a rivet, a 16" Paiste 602 flat ride, a 21" Larry London Sabian for rock gigs, a 16" Paiste signature fast crash, and 13" Newbeat Zildjians w/ a riveted bottom cymbal for the hihat..

My drums right now are Yamamaha Stage Custom with 10", 12", 13". and !6" x 16" tom sizes. The bass drum is a 14" x 22" and I often use the 16" x 16" in a frame mount as a bass drum..

Edited November 28, 2003 by randissimo

[Guest WINGY (I STAY BOMBED)]

I can relate to the loss of hearing. I have lost about 25 - 30 % in my left ear. I first noticed it back in 91 when I was laying on my right side with the window opened and could not hear the birds chattering outside.  I think this effects the way I hear my cymbals as well as the choices I make when I pick out cymbals.

Regarding hearing loss:

For years I would go to bed with my ears ringing. I had 5 trumpets blowing their brains out right behind my head during those big band days.

About 2 years ago I started to become super sensitive to sound.

I mean, rain on the roof, birds in trees, dishes in diners being stacked etc.

I thought I was goin' nuts. At first the Doctors checked me out for Lupus and Multiple Sclerosis. I was freakin' out. They then sent me to have a hearing test.

I was put in a sound proof room with headphones and the chickie was doin' the frequency button thing. At one point I was hearing through the walls of the soundproof room the answering machine in the front office.

In short: Rather than losing my hearing I became highly sensitive. Since that time I've backed off caffeine and PERUVIAN MARCHING POWDER. Things seem to have stabilized but the results of that hearing test were that my hearing was at the level of a person 17 years old.

WINGY

p.s. CHRISTIERN, PEEK-A-BOO we can see you. You just can't ignore my posts. See if B-3er might deputize you. Am I being politically correct on this thread (for which you should have absolutely *NO* interest whatsoever)...DUH!!

Edited November 28, 2003 by WINGY (I STAY BOMBED)

[randissimo]

I can relate to the loss of hearing. I have lost about 25 - 30 % in my left ear. I first noticed it back in 91 when I was laying on my right side with the window opened and could not hear the birds chattering outside.  I think this effects the way I hear my cymbals as well as the choices I make when I pick out cymbals.

p.s. CHRISTIERN, PEEK-A-BOO we can see you. You just can't ignore my posts. See if B-3er might deputize you. Am I being politically correct on this thread (for which you should have absolutely *NO* interest whatsoever)...DUH!!

Wingy, Let's keep this strictly a "Drummers Discussion Thread" You yourself said last night I should not be discussing music on the "Jazzmobile Wet Dream" thread..

Hence, the "Drummer's Corner"... R-R-L-R-L-L-R-L and then we'll flam the doubles!

[Guest WINGY (I STAY BOMBED)]

I can relate to the loss of hearing. I have lost about 25 - 30 % in my left ear. I first noticed it back in 91 when I was laying on my right side with the window opened and could not hear the birds chattering outside.  I think this effects the way I hear my cymbals as well as the choices I make when I pick out cymbals.

p.s. CHRISTIERN, PEEK-A-BOO we can see you. You just can't ignore my posts. See if B-3er might deputize you. Am I being politically correct on this thread (for which you should have absolutely *NO* interest whatsoever)...DUH!!

Wingy, Let's keep this strictly a "Drummers Discussion Thread" You yourself said last night I should not be discussing music on the "Jazzmobile Wet Dream" thread..

Hence, the "Drummer's Corner"... R-R-L-R-L-L-R-L and then we'll flam the doubles!

RANDALL,

You got it. I just happened to notice him eavesdropping.

For a guy who chooses to ignore me...HE SURE TAKES AN INTEREST IN EVERYTHING I POST

Heretofore I'll take your advise and I'll ignore him *NOT IGNORING ME*

WING

[SGUD missile]

Regarding hearing loss:

When I started giggng in the mid 50s, I did a lot of work with ( very appropriately here ) rock house B3 trio and 4tets ..Red PrySock, Tiny Bradshaw, shuffle blues stuff. Since the drums were usually stuck between the Leslies going full tilt and the only mike was on the sax guy and the gitar was the only amped axe, I learned early on to try and preserve my hearing by stuffing cotton in my ears ..( as y'all know playing two hand shuffles with 3B stix on heavy ride cymabal s for four hours a night will build up chops , but it WILL be noisy ! )

After that, Like his Wingness, I went on to play with a bunch of big bands suffering the same brass abuse in my ears ..still using the cotton ..add to that about five years in a studio with a bad tinny headset ( late 60s ) pounding a click track in my left ear ..

the upshot is even though I spent years producing ( and mixing at low levels ) in studios, I STILL have tintinnius ..and I was careful ..

The point of this is all you young guys who are playing in greatly amplified situations today, TAKE CARE OF YER GODDAM EARS!!! ..you only get one set and its really easy to screw them up.

BTW: My favorite kit ( when I was still playing ) was a early 70s Sonar Rosewood kit ..same sizes as Wingys lit ..( 19 B/ 8 and 14 Ts / 6.5 -14 metal snare ) wide open ..and I had no trouble pushing a big band with it.

[randissimo]

Regarding hearing loss:

When I started giggng in the mid 50s, I did a lot of work with ( very appropriately here ) rock house B3 trio and 4tets ..Red PrySock, Tiny Bradshaw, shuffle blues stuff. Since the drums were usually stuck between the Leslies going full tilt and the only mike was on the sax guy and the gitar was the only amped axe, I learned early on to try and preserve my hearing by stuffing cotton in my ears ..( as y'all know playing two hand shuffles with 3B stix on heavy ride cymabal s for four hours a night will build up chops , but it WILL be noisy ! )

After that, Like his Wingness, I went on to play with a bunch of big bands suffering the same brass abuse in my ears ..still using the cotton ..add to that about five years in a studio with a bad tinny headset ( late 60s ) pounding a click track in my left ear ..

the upshot is even though I spent years producing ( and mixing at low levels ) in studios, I STILL have tintinnius ..and I was careful ..

The point of this is all you young guys who are playing in greatly amplified situations today, TAKE CARE OF YER GODDAM EARS!!! ..you only get one set and its really easy to screw them up.

BTW: My favorite kit ( when I was still playing ) was a early 70s Sonar Rosewood kit ..same sizes as Wingys lit ..( 19 B/ 8 and 14 Ts / 6.5 -14 metal snare ) wide open ..and I had no trouble pushing a big band with it.

Wow! Red Prysock and Tiny Bradshaw! That must have been pretty funky... I have ear protection I try and remember to keep at all times in my stick bag.. I do a lot of quieter acoustic Jazz gigs but occasionally Organissimo plays lounges that attract a young Jam band type of crowd so we go into "funk mode," or I get one nighters with blues bands or backing pop singers and this means playing louder!

"TAKE CARE OF YER GODDAM EARS!!! ..you only get one set and its really easy to screw them up". Thanks for your concern.. I'll be sure to be more mindful and try to keep better track of those ear protectors... I am also looking into the possibility of in ear monitors..