Early Bud Powell

[mmcgerr]

There's a good on-line Powell discography that's helpful on this topic:

http://www.jazzdisco.org/bud-powell/

[mjzee]

As far as I know, the only speed corrected version of the early Roost masters is in the Blue Note box unless one of the EU companies copied those masters.

One of the Andorran labels released a single disc titled "The Complete 1946-49 Roost/Blue Note/Verve/Swing Masters." I think the pitch is correct on this.

[Gheorghe]

Of course I have all the Francis Paudras CDs (Mythic Sound). The tracks with Cootie Williams are very interesting because Bud already got his style while improvising, but still got other influences too.

On Vol. II (Burnin´in USA) I really like the track "Tiny´s Blues" with Bud at his best.

Maybe the most exiting Bud from the earlier period is on the mentioned 1950 gig with Bird and Fats. I think it is much superior to the Verve trio session from about the same time (July 1950) with Buddy Rich. Those two tunes are just a bit too much. At a slightly slower pace it would have been more boppish. Though "Little Willie Leaps" and "Dizzy Athmosphere" on "One Night At Birdland" are ultra rapid, it´s not so hurried like those two trio tracks and leaves enough space to develope out all the phrases in a manner that it "blows" and produces quick and hip stuff.

I always have kind of difficulties if a pianist becomes too pianistic. Maybe that´s why I prefer later Bud, where speed slows down a little.

P.S.: I also got that Allen Eager CD with the rare Bud Powell feature. It´s a nice private session. The only downer is the guy who tries to play the drums on the slow blues.

[ValerieB]

talk about a "private session". how i wish i had a recording of an evening i was privy to sometime around 1965-67.

i was in a friend's apartment in Manhattan where Bud would visit regularly to practice. very sadly, he was living in Brooklyn at the time with no piano!! his friend would let him use his piano at any hour of the day or night. the night i was there, the doorbell rang, my friend buzzed him in downstairs, Bud took the elevator up and immediately upon entering just walked to the front of the apt. where the piano was. no conversation at all. not a word. it was amazing to witness, both the visual and the audio!!!

[Gheorghe]

hi ValerieB!

Bud died in the summer of 1966 /July 31th I think. So this might have been his very last 2 years when he was alive. Though this has nothing to do with "early Bud", I always said I really found all his work at any period of his short live really astonishing.

It is true Bud lived in Brooklyn right after his return to Birdland in september/october 1964. He worked only sporadically (a Carnegie Hall performance in march 1965 at a Charlie Parker Memorial Concert, and on May 1th at Town Hall on bill with some Avant Garde musicians like Albert Ayler and Milford Graves). Maybe a few club performances. The only recorded document of that period is the strange album "Ups´N Downs" with some studio solo and trio work and one track "Round Midnight" from the Carnegie Hall performance.

It´s too bad the tape of the Town Hall Concert was distroyed, since it is reported Bud had performed a new composition "Caket in the Sea". We´ll never know how it sounded.

Anyway, the "Ups ´N Downs" album has a strange, moving quality. Some say it is better than his last official studio recording from october 1964 (The Return of Bud Powell).

Can you remember how Bud sounded when he practiced? I always said Bud, during his very last year of playing music seemed to have discovered some other means to express his genius: Gone are the flashy runs and long improvised lines, and something else came into his music, especially on ballads he used darker voicings and a more ad lib tempo.

I have many many hours of privatly recorded material from Birdland, september and october 1964 (2 of them from the Francis Paudras Mythic Sound records: "Return to Birdland" and "Award at Birdland", where he received the "Schaeffer Award", and 17 more CDs of unissued material). This together with "Ups ´N Downs" led me to some inside knowledge of how Bud played during this very last and very unhappy period.

Video tapes of later Bud show a strange picture of him. He seems to be really involved physically in what he does on the piano.

[ValerieB]

hi, Gheorghe. thanks for all the very interesting information! i am sorry to say that i really don't remember how Bud sounded while he was practicing. i feel confident though to say that he wasn't playing any "flashy runs". i sadly remember his "shuffling" rather than walking to the piano. it was clear he wasn't well during this time.

another topic completely but do you happen to be a fan of Joe Zawinul's at any time during his career?

[Gheorghe]

hi, Gheorghe. thanks for all the very interesting information! i am sorry to say that i really don't remember how Bud sounded while he was practicing. i feel confident though to say that he wasn't playing any "flashy runs". i sadly remember his "shuffling" rather than walking to the piano. it was clear he wasn't well during this time.

another topic completely but do you happen to be a fan of Joe Zawinul's at any time during his career?

hi Valerie: Thanks for your answer. Well...off topic....sure Zawinul was an exceptional musician and did fantastic things, period. But to say that I´m a f a n of him would be to much. I´m a f a n of Bird, Diz, Fats, Bud, Monk, Mingus, Miles, Trane, Ornette, that´s it. Concerning Bud, I´d like to think of myself as being one of his most loyal fans. From the first note on, his approach to music, to the piano and everything......it was just that I fell in love with his music.

[brownie]

Stan Getz, Bud Powell and Paul Chambers outside Birdland in 1957. From an article (plus photo) by Marcel Romano in 'Jazz Hot' (October 1957).

[Gheorghe]

I know that photo from Francis Paudras´book about Bud. Well, Bud did at least two recordings with Paul Chambers. Not with Getz, but at least he recorded with two "Lestorian" tenorists: With Zoot Sims, and witz Brew Moore. The encounter with Zoot is better known. It´s from the BlueNote Café in Paris.

[Teasing the Korean]

Regarding the Roost CD, on the Blue Note/Roulette label, I think tracks 1-8 run fast, bumping things up a half step or so. Tracks 9-16, I'm not sure. They seem to be in standard or typical keys.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Teasing the Korean

[Chuck Nessa]

Regarding the Roost CD, on the Blue Note/Roulette label, I think tracks 1-8 run fast, bumping things up a half step or so. Tracks 9-16, I'm not sure. They seem to be in standard or typical keys.

True. It was corrected for this set

Edited August 10, 2012 by Chuck Nessa

[six string]

absolutely, I agree, ballad playing is the last thing - it's interesting because when I play with musicians they always want to double up, which drives me nuts.

I think Bud took a year or two to break out of a Tatum thing and into something more personal.

Absolutely (re: musicians and ballads). I have the hardest time trying to get my friends to play at a snail's pace and this coming from a trio where I play drums instead of my more experienced guitar playing. One of my favorite things I like working on more than anything on the drums is playing slow and quiet.

[Teasing the Korean]

... One of my favorite things I like working on more than anything on the drums is playing slow and quiet.

You're hired!

[six string]

I'm an odd duck in that way. It must be because I'm a guitar player first so I've been through the loud and fast drummers in my time. It really is a different way of playing technique wise and what I've learned is that once you bring the volume down there are many, many colors/sounds available to you, especially with cymbals that one doesn't get at louder volumes. There are occasional times when I got to strike a cymbal that I'm trying so hard just to stroke it lightly that I have missed the cymbal all together and while it's not desirable, I'll take it over a misplaced loud strike any day.

Edited August 17, 2012 by six string

[xybert]

Question regarding a reissue of the Roost recordings:

The Bud Powell Trio Featuring Max Roach was reissued in Japan earlier this year. I'd seen the cover but always assumed it was a Verve album, and as i've got the Verve box didn't think i needed it. On closer inspection it appears to have the same tracks as the Roulette release of the 1947/1953 Roost material (the photo of the back cover lists 12 tracks but the track listing on Amazon lists all 16, not unusual with Japanese reissues as they tend to replicate the original cover regardless of the actual track listing), however it notes on the back of the cover a 1950 recording date. I've gone ahead and purchased it as if it is as i presume the Roost material i'm hoping it's been speed corrected. Can anyone shed any light on this one (regarding  the 1950 recording date, whether the original LP release was at the right speed etc).

Cheers.

 

 

[mjzee]

I did an analysis here of the correct timings:

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?/topic/72210-bud-powell-early-recordings-as-a-leader/&do=findComment&comment=1244797

[Gheorghe]

I always thought its from 1947, but Carl Smith in his book "Wail" mentions that the Roost session was recorded some years later (49,50?).
I still believe it was 1947, cause butaround 49,50 sounded else and the recording sound was else.

About the right speed: Thats always unnerving if the speed is not right. Especially to me. See, I got perfect pitch and when I was a young kid and heard that Indiana in F sharp (or G flat ) I dind´t know its the wrong speed, I thougt Bud can play that fast in such a difficult key. Then I was sure only in F, Bflat or Eflat and thought wow I might practice, Bud plays all them difficult keys...... but he didn´t. During 1953 almost everything he played he played in F. Mingus who otherwise admired him, critizezed him at that point for sticking on the key of F for almost the entire set......

[xybert]

9 hours ago, mjzee said:

I did an analysis here of the correct timings:

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?/topic/72210-bud-powell-early-recordings-as-a-leader/&do=findComment&comment=1244797

Thanks for that. It looks like the release i posted above... the track times noted on the back cover are even shorter than the Roulette release! No actual track times listed on Amazon Japan or CD Japan... it could still have been corrected and they've just replicated the original back cover unchanged... i tried to do an A/B comparison between the Roulette CD and the samples for this release on CD Japan... there are times where i think they sound the same, other times different... I'll know when i hear the opening bars of I'll Remember April when the actual CD arrives... but i think it's not looking good. 

 

2 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

I always thought its from 1947, but Carl Smith in his book "Wail" mentions that the Roost session was recorded some years later (49,50?).
I still believe it was 1947, cause butaround 49,50 sounded else and the recording sound was else.

About the right speed: Thats always unnerving if the speed is not right. Especially to me. See, I got perfect pitch and when I was a young kid and heard that Indiana in F sharp (or G flat ) I dind´t know its the wrong speed, I thougt Bud can play that fast in such a difficult key. Then I was sure only in F, Bflat or Eflat and thought wow I might practice, Bud plays all them difficult keys...... but he didn´t. During 1953 almost everything he played he played in F. Mingus who otherwise admired him, critizezed him at that point for sticking on the key of F for almost the entire set......

Yeah, puzzling that the above release which looks like it was originally released in 1958 notes 1950 as the recording date. 

[John L]

In his biography, Peter Pullman also presumes that the Roost session was not from 1947.  He writes as if it is accepted as certain, and that the early 1949 session for Clef was Bud's first session as a leader.   It is a bit frustrating that he doesn't make it clear exactly why he thinks that. 

Edited November 19, 2016 by John L

[mjzee]

Is there any way of finding out when the first 78s from the Roost session appeared?

[John L]

15 hours ago, mjzee said:

Is there any way of finding out when the first 78s from the Roost session appeared?

A bit of information gathered from the Internet:  Roost Records didn't even exist until 1949.  So the records could not have been issued before then, and the matrix numbers would suggest that they might date from the early 50s.  On the other hand, the session itself was apparently recorded by DeLuxe, an R&B label that never issued the music itself.  

[Big Beat Steve]

20 hours ago, mjzee said:

Is there any way of finding out when the first 78s from the Roost session appeared?

Trying to narrow down the timeframe:

The Bud Powell recordings from that session were on Roost 509, 513, 518 and 521.

The Stan Getz session recorded on May 15, 1950 was released on Roost 512, 516 and 522.
Some of the tracks from his session of December 10, 1950 were released on Roost 520 and 522.

Assuming that Roost released their 78s sequentially in the numbering order and not with HUGE intervals between each release, the first Bud Powell release is unlikely to date long before spring, 1950, and 521 cannot have been released before the very end of 1950 at the earliest.

 

Edited November 20, 2016 by Big Beat Steve

[xybert]

Well, i'm pretty happy to say that this latest release has been pitch corrected. I've attached a screenshot of the track times in iTunes (obviously only needed to show the first eight tracks but thought i'd include all sixteen just for the sake of showing what's on the disc). The difference is clearly audible to me, although it would be cool to get a second opinion.

EDIT: mjzee linked to a comparison of the track lengths above, but just for ease of reference below is a screenshot of the track times for the Roulette release ripped to iTunes:

 

Edited November 21, 2016 by xybert

[mjzee]

1 hour ago, xybert said:

Well, i'm pretty happy to say that this latest release has been pitch corrected. I've attached a screenshot of the track times in iTunes (obviously only needed to show the first eight tracks but thought i'd include all sixteen just for the sake of showing what's on the disc). The difference is clearly audible to me, although it would be cool to get a second opinion.

Yes, those are the same 16 tracks that were on this Roulette release; glad you got the corrected pitch:

[JSngry]

Ok, I am sleepy and lazy and too drunk to fuck...which, if any, American CD release contains all this material at the correct pitch(es)?