2009-2010 Hot Stove Thread

[Soulstation1]

Lee should go back to Cleveland

[Matthew]

Seattle should change its name from the Mariners to the Thieves b/c they just STOLE Cliff Lee from the Phils.

Yeah, the Mariners' didn't give up anything of high value to get Lee. Just a strange move by the Phillies, but it's also a strange move for the Mariners because I don't think they can sign Lee, so it looks like one year and out for him. Not a good way to build up a team, but we'll wait and see. Plus, Lee seemed to be more effective in the NL than the AL. It's a great deal if Lee pans out, but at this point, I have a lot of questions.

[Chalupa]

Seattle should change its name from the Mariners to the Thieves b/c they just STOLE Cliff Lee from the Phils.

Yeah, the Mariners' didn't give up anything of high value to get Lee. Just a strange move by the Phillies, but it's also a strange move for the Mariners because I don't think they can sign Lee, so it looks like one year and out for him. Not a good way to build up a team, but we'll wait and see. Plus, Lee seemed to be more effective in the NL than the AL. It's a great deal if Lee pans out, but at this point, I have a lot of questions.

Today at the Halladay press conf. Phils GM Ruben Amaro Jr. said that....

"We could have kept both of them (Lee and Halladay), but it was a baseball decision for me and our organization and the people in the organization. We could not leave the cupboard bare. If we had just acquired Roy and not moved Lee, we would have been in position to have lost seven of the best 10 prospects in our organization. That is not the way you do business in baseball ... There are a variety of reasons to make this move, but more than anything else this is a baseball decision."

He could have kept both but he chose not to because he wanted to restock his farm system?? What kind of ass backward thinking is that?? Memo to Ruben, henceforth who shall be known as "The Rube": The object is to make your MAJOR league team better not your MINOR league teams. Prospects are just that - prospects. A bird in the hand is worth more than two in the bush or in this case Cliff Lee for 1 season (plus 2 1st round draft picks if he leaves next year) is better than the 3 pieces of wood you just got from Seattle.

[Johnny E]

Plus, Lee seemed to be more effective in the NL than the AL.

Lee pitched a month and a half in the National League. He won the Cy Young in the American. He went 83-48 in the AL and 7-4 in the NL. Last year he had a 3.14 ERA in the AL and a 3.49 ERA in the NL. He was lights out in the World Series, winning both of Philly's two wins...against an American League team.

This was a steal for the Mariners. If they don't trade him at the deadline, that means they are in a pennant race and possibly in the playoffs or more. And if he walks, the M's get a first round draft pick in return. If they do trade him at the deadline, they'd get at least as much (if not more) then they just gave away. On top of all that, there is a chance that he'll actually like it in Seattle and want to stay. The Mariners got a good thing goin' on right now. Club house morale is at a all time high. Man! Jack Z is awesome.

[Matthew]

Well, you got me there Johnny E., I didn't really look up Lee's Al record, but you're right.

[Quincy]

I'm hesitant to judge the trading of prospects, as sometimes the "throw in" really comes back to bite you in the ass. The extreme case being the Cubs-Phils trade for Bowa, where the Phils threw in some Rhyno kid...

[Chalupa]

Cliff Lee: "Shock and disbelief"

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/phillies_zone/Lee.html

Currently on a conference call introducing Cliff Lee as a Seattle Mariner. He does not sound thrilled. Here is a sampling.

"My initial reaction was shock and disbelief...Initially, I was disappointed because making it to the World Series was a lot of fun, and I was looking forward to making a third run at it."

"At first I didn't believe it, because I thought that we were working out an extension with the Phillies and I thought that I was going to spend the rest of my career there...This goes to show this is a business, and you never know what's going to happen until you have a full no-trade clause."

Why do you think it an extension didn't work out?

"There was not enough dialogue. (Also) They had an opportuity to get the best pitcher in baseball, and I can't blame them for choosing Roy Halladay over me...I was under the impression they would keep me for a long time."

"I'm going to be as positive as I can, and go over there and try to make it to the World Series with those guys...it's a new chapter. I've got to go to the Mariners and make the best of it. I'm going to go in with an open mind and do everything I can."

Excited at all about returning to A.L.?

"Uh, yeah. I've got to."

What did you like about the Phillies?

"Those guys are the real deal. It was a true team and I can't say enough about them."

***

UPDATE, 8:25pm

Was able to reach Ruben Amaro for a response. "I am not really going to comment on the negotiations, other than what I said yesterday," he said. "There was nothing contentious about our talks, but it may not have led to something we were comfortable with. I would have loved to have kept both guys on the club. It was a matter of, we felt more comfortable with the deal we could do with Roy than the one we could do with Cliff.

"I hope Cliff Lee pitches tremendously well. We would have loved to have kept him, but it didn't look like we were going to move toward that goal."

---------------------------------------------------------------------

From those comments it sounds to me that Cliff needs a new agent. This is what I think happened. Lee wanted to work out an extension and his agent decided to play hardball thinking that the Phillies would come back w/ a sweet offer. Unfortunately, instead of coming back w/ an offer they panicked figuring,"shit, his agent said he's just gonna walk unless he gets Sabathia money and a 6 year extension. We gotta try plan B." Plan B was Drabek & Taylor for Halladay. A part of me also wonders if Ruben may have also been sending a message to the rest of his potential FAs who want a mega dollar, long term extension,"Don't ask for the sky or I'll ship your ass to Seattle. If you like the rain, fine - you've got nothing to worry about. But if you don't like the rain...."

[Johnny E]

Cliff Lee: "Shock and disbelief"

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/phillies_zone/Lee.html

Currently on a conference call introducing Cliff Lee as a Seattle Mariner. He does not sound thrilled. Here is a sampling.

From those comments it sounds to me that Cliff needs a new agent. This is what I think happened. Lee wanted to work out an extension and his agent decided to play hardball thinking that the Phillies would come back w/ a sweet offer. Unfortunately, instead of coming back w/ an offer they panicked figuring,"shit, his agent said he's just gonna walk unless he gets Sabathia money and a 6 year extension. We gotta try plan B." Plan B was Drabek & Taylor for Halladay. A part of me also wonders if Ruben may have also been sending a message to the rest of his potential FAs who want a mega dollar, long term extension,"Don't ask for the sky or I'll ship your ass to Seattle. If you like the rain, fine - you've got nothing to worry about. But if you don't like the rain...."

I totally agree...but I think he's gonna be pleasantly surprised in Seattle and enjoy kicking the Phillies ass in the 2010 World Series.

[Chalupa]

Cliff Lee: "Shock and disbelief"

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/phillies_zone/Lee.html

Currently on a conference call introducing Cliff Lee as a Seattle Mariner. He does not sound thrilled. Here is a sampling.

From those comments it sounds to me that Cliff needs a new agent. This is what I think happened. Lee wanted to work out an extension and his agent decided to play hardball thinking that the Phillies would come back w/ a sweet offer. Unfortunately, instead of coming back w/ an offer they panicked figuring,"shit, his agent said he's just gonna walk unless he gets Sabathia money and a 6 year extension. We gotta try plan B." Plan B was Drabek & Taylor for Halladay. A part of me also wonders if Ruben may have also been sending a message to the rest of his potential FAs who want a mega dollar, long term extension,"Don't ask for the sky or I'll ship your ass to Seattle. If you like the rain, fine - you've got nothing to worry about. But if you don't like the rain...."

I totally agree...but I think he's gonna be pleasantly surprised in Seattle and enjoy kicking the Phillies ass in the 2010 World Series.

Dude, as much as losing the WS two years in a row would pain me I would love to see that. I'm a big Cliff Lee fan and I'm so pissed that they traded him.

[Matthew]

It just seems as if the Phils jumped the gun on this one, they didn't even give it time. This excuse of wanting to restock the farm system, any trade of Lee, at anytime during the season, could have done that. Granted, it would have hard for Philly to make that trade during the season if Lee was lights-out, but certainly, I think a better trade was there later on in the year. Philly should have made an effort to sign Lee, and if it didn't happen before spring training, then I can see a trade in that circumstance.

[Brad]

No offense but Philly, just like any other team, probably had a budget; I think even the Yankees do. Can you seriously tell me that Halladay is not an upgrade over Lee. I think you guys should be really happy that you got him. Apparently, he really wanted to be with the Phillies and he wasn't looking to bust the budget. They knew they could reasonably negotiate with him and they weren't sure about Lee. The only down side was getting rid of Drabek but guys like Halladay don't come around often and you surely didn't want the New York teams or the Red Sox to get him did you?

[Dave James]

All the upbeat Mariner news has just been cancelled via their acquisition of the man with a game for a name, Milton Bradley. Mr. Clubhouse now gets to weave his magical spell on the unsuspecting M's. I would say I hope they have enough veteran leadership to accommodate this guy, but all the other teams he's infested had plenty of leadership and look where it got them. I know the guy can hit, but at what cost?

[Johnny E]

Cliff needs a new agent.

All the upbeat Mariner news has just been cancelled via their acquisition of the man with a game for a name, Milton Bradley. Mr. Clubhouse now gets to weave his magical spell on the unsuspecting M's. I would say I hope they have enough veteran leadership to accommodate this guy, but all the other teams he's infested had plenty of leadership and look where it got them. I know the guy can hit, but at what cost?

I'm willing to take that chance just to dump Silva. He had no place on this team and would have just sat on the DL all year with some fake injury just like he did last year. He's horrible.

Once again, GMZ weaves his magic and turns a piece of shit into a chance at something better. With lots of potential and little down side. If it don't work out the M's can just cut him. It would be less that having Silva.

[BERIGAN]

Cliff needs a new agent.

All the upbeat Mariner news has just been cancelled via their acquisition of the man with a game for a name, Milton Bradley. Mr. Clubhouse now gets to weave his magical spell on the unsuspecting M's. I would say I hope they have enough veteran leadership to accommodate this guy, but all the other teams he's infested had plenty of leadership and look where it got them. I know the guy can hit, but at what cost?

I'm willing to take that chance just to dump Silva. He had no place on this team and would have just sat on the DL all year with some fake injury just like he did last year. He's horrible.

Once again, GMZ weaves his magic and turns a piece of shit into a chance at something better. With lots of potential and little down side. If it don't work out the M's can just cut him. It would be less that having Silva.

Yeah, it can't really hurt to try Bradley, can it??? He seems to be able to play in one city for one year, Chicago excluded. If he hits like he did in 2008, it will be a great deal for Seattle.

[Chalupa]

Seattle should change its name from the Mariners to the Thieves b/c they just STOLE Cliff Lee from the Phils.

Yeah, the Mariners' didn't give up anything of high value to get Lee. Just a strange move by the Phillies, but it's also a strange move for the Mariners because I don't think they can sign Lee, so it looks like one year and out for him. Not a good way to build up a team, but we'll wait and see. Plus, Lee seemed to be more effective in the NL than the AL. It's a great deal if Lee pans out, but at this point, I have a lot of questions.

Today at the Halladay press conf. Phils GM Ruben Amaro Jr. said that....

"We could have kept both of them (Lee and Halladay), but it was a baseball decision for me and our organization and the people in the organization. We could not leave the cupboard bare. If we had just acquired Roy and not moved Lee, we would have been in position to have lost seven of the best 10 prospects in our organization. That is not the way you do business in baseball ... There are a variety of reasons to make this move, but more than anything else this is a baseball decision."

He could have kept both but he chose not to because he wanted to restock his farm system?? What kind of ass backward thinking is that?? Memo to Ruben, henceforth who shall be known as "The Rube": The object is to make your MAJOR league team better not your MINOR league teams. Prospects are just that - prospects. A bird in the hand is worth more than two in the bush or in this case Cliff Lee for 1 season (plus 2 1st round draft picks if he leaves next year) is better than the 3 pieces of wood you just got from Seattle.

Cliff Lee: "Shock and disbelief"

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/phillies_zone/Lee.html

Currently on a conference call introducing Cliff Lee as a Seattle Mariner. He does not sound thrilled. Here is a sampling.

"My initial reaction was shock and disbelief...Initially, I was disappointed because making it to the World Series was a lot of fun, and I was looking forward to making a third run at it."

"At first I didn't believe it, because I thought that we were working out an extension with the Phillies and I thought that I was going to spend the rest of my career there...This goes to show this is a business, and you never know what's going to happen until you have a full no-trade clause."

Why do you think it an extension didn't work out?

"There was not enough dialogue. (Also) They had an opportuity to get the best pitcher in baseball, and I can't blame them for choosing Roy Halladay over me...I was under the impression they would keep me for a long time."

"I'm going to be as positive as I can, and go over there and try to make it to the World Series with those guys...it's a new chapter. I've got to go to the Mariners and make the best of it. I'm going to go in with an open mind and do everything I can."

Excited at all about returning to A.L.?

"Uh, yeah. I've got to."

What did you like about the Phillies?

"Those guys are the real deal. It was a true team and I can't say enough about them."

***

UPDATE, 8:25pm

Was able to reach Ruben Amaro for a response. "I am not really going to comment on the negotiations, other than what I said yesterday," he said. "There was nothing contentious about our talks, but it may not have led to something we were comfortable with. I would have loved to have kept both guys on the club. It was a matter of, we felt more comfortable with the deal we could do with Roy than the one we could do with Cliff.

"I hope Cliff Lee pitches tremendously well. We would have loved to have kept him, but it didn't look like we were going to move toward that goal."

---------------------------------------------------------------------

From those comments it sounds to me that Cliff needs a new agent. This is what I think happened. Lee wanted to work out an extension and his agent decided to play hardball thinking that the Phillies would come back w/ a sweet offer. Unfortunately, instead of coming back w/ an offer they panicked figuring,"shit, his agent said he's just gonna walk unless he gets Sabathia money and a 6 year extension. We gotta try plan B." Plan B was Drabek & Taylor for Halladay. A part of me also wonders if Ruben may have also been sending a message to the rest of his potential FAs who want a mega dollar, long term extension,"Don't ask for the sky or I'll ship your ass to Seattle. If you like the rain, fine - you've got nothing to worry about. But if you don't like the rain...."

No offense but Philly, just like any other team, probably had a budget; I think even the Yankees do. Can you seriously tell me that Halladay is not an upgrade over Lee. I think you guys should be really happy that you got him. Apparently, he really wanted to be with the Phillies and he wasn't looking to bust the budget. They knew they could reasonably negotiate with him and they weren't sure about Lee. The only down side was getting rid of Drabek but guys like Halladay don't come around often and you surely didn't want the New York teams or the Red Sox to get him did you?

Brad did you read my previous posts? Amaro said that they could have kept both. The payroll budget wasn't the reason for this trade - that's if you believe Ruben. I don't. I mean Amaro is either a liar or incredibly dumb. If the Mets could afford both Lee and Halladay even if it were for just one season wouldn't you want them to hold on to them both? I also think Lee's agent is lying. I think he over-estimated his barging position and thought that he could bluff the Philles into paying more by playing a little hardball. Unfortunately for Lee and the Phillies' fans, Amaro panicked. I'm just amazed that Amaro thinks that the prospects from Seattle are going to be better than the two picks he would have got if Lee had left after next season. If they were so great why not spin them to Toronto for Halladay? Even if the Seattle prospects do pan out they are at least 3 to 4 years away from contributing to the Phils. That doesn't help us now. Drabek and Taylor are ready to go now and the Phillies core players JRoll, Utley, & Howard are in their early 30's. The window is closing. The future is now. Yes, we are glad as hell to get Halladay but it's not that much of an upgrade to justify losing Lee, Drabek, and Taylor. The big winners in the Lee trade are the Mariners, Yankees, Red Sox, and the entire NL except for the team from Philly. The Mets would have had no chance against Halladay, Lee, Hamels, and Happ. I would give Amaro an "A" for the Halladay deal and a "F" for the Lee trade which averages out to a "C".

[Matthew]

Keith Olbermann being a downer on the Milton Bradley trade for the Mariners. Mr. Buzzkill's article.

[Dave James]

With the all but completed signing of Nick Johnson, it looks like the Yankees and Johnny Damon are parting company. From a productivity, financial and age perspective, I guess this makes sense, but I like the way Damon plays the game. I know his pinstripe legacy is secure on the basis of his double steal in this year's Series, but it won't be the same not having him around. His swing was tailor made for the house that Ruth didn't build and for the one he did. I wish him well wherever he goes.

[Dave James]

The Yankees have traded Melky Cabrera and Mike Dunn to the Braves for Javier Vasquez and a minor league pitcher. Good move for the Yanks. It also opens the door every so slightly that an agreement can be reached with Johnny Damon. That's a long shot, but I'd sure like to see it happen.

[ghost of miles]

The Yankees have traded Melky Cabrera and Mike Dunn to the Braves for Javier Vasquez and a minor league pitcher. Good move for the Yanks. It also opens the door every so slightly that an agreement can be reached with Johnny Damon. That's a long shot, but I'd sure like to see it happen.

I'd like to see Damon back for a two-year stint as well, Dave. Agree w/you about his overall attitude and presence on the team. Pinstripe Alley quoted a tweet to the effect that he signaled he'd take 2 yr/20 million but by then the Yanks were already locked in to sign Johnson.

[Brad]

Vasquez wasn't that great for them the first time around. Maybe they see something now. When he was with the Expos, he was lights out.

[BERIGAN]

Vasquez wasn't that great for them the first time around. Maybe they see something now. When he was with the Expos, he was lights out.

He was one of the top starters in the NL last year.Keith Law says the 2nd best. Not sure of that, but top 5 for sure. 9 of the 10 seasons 200 or more innings(198 was the year he didn't reach 200) But, he seems to have a good year following a bad year record.

For the braves, Melky Cabrera is a very good player, but not exactly the big bat we need. And we have a very good center fielder, with good speed in Nate McLouth. I see Melky's OBP pretty much sucks, which is surprising considering he played for the Yankees. I hear a lot of good things about the prospects the Yankees gave up.

I imagine the braves have some other moves to make. Jason Heyward will likely get a chance to start in right field. But, someone with some bop needs to be acquired for left, or 1st.

[Dave James]

Vasquez was lights out for the first half season he was with the Yankees. I'm hearing that he had shoulder problems during the second half but that he kept them to himself. That would help explain the serious drop off in his effectiveness. If he's anywhere near what he has been for the last couple of years, this is going to be a very good deal for the Yanks. He could easily wind up being their #2 guy. It also provides some bullpen flexibility in that either Hughes or Chamberlain can be the go to set-up guy.

[ghost of miles]

It does seem like a good trade on paper, Dave. But I'm going to miss Melky. He was at the plate at the end of ALCS Game 2--that extraordinarily long, rain-drenched affair prolonged by A-Rod's homer in the 11th:

Yankees go up 2-0 in ALCS

The chemistry of the 2009 team was truly magical--the more I look back at that season, the more that moments like this one or this one (the moment that finished off the Bosox as division contenders IMO) convince me that the baseball gods were smiling on NY throughout the summer and autumn, whether it be miscues or heroics. It'll be interesting to see what emerges with the slightly re-tooled 2010 edition. And in another key off-season move, what does the departure of Kate Hudson portend for A-Rod's 2010 season?

Edited December 23, 2009 by ghost of miles

[Brad]

I guess we'll have to do without Sterling referring to the Milk-man. Now, isn't that a shame

[Dave James]

I wasn't aware that Kate and Alex had split the sheets. Not sure what impact that will have on Mr. Rod. I don't think he's going to have any trouble finding women. Apparently, he was in Florida over the weekend partying hardy with not one but two women. Still, you have to wonder what went wrong. Maybe Kate got tired of fooling around under the gaze of the picture that Alex keeps at the head of his bed. If I understand correctly, it's an A-Rod centaur. Although I don't know for sure, I'm assuming that he's is the front half and not the rear, although who's to say. One can only hope for his sake that he has better taste in women that he does in art.