ever been kicked off an internet group?

[ghost of miles]

I must say that my long-time experience with Mike Fitzgerald has always been positive. I admire the work he does and understand why he may sometimes have to put his foot down. The corner woman and all that jazz is quite another matter. Does anyone remember a New York jazz spot called Michael's Pub? It was managed (owned) by a rude s.o.b. who tainted the club's atmosphere to the point where it became a chore having to go there, even if a favorite was appearing. The bastard deserved to go out of business and I don't think a single tear was shed in the jazz community. Anyone remember that place?

I certainly do. I worked there with Hadda Brooks, a great singer-pianist from L.A., for a month in '94. Gil Wiest is his name (the brother of actress Dianne)---and his reputation preceded him. He gave myself and Ms. Brooks the hardest time he could----but we never took the bait. She was such a great singer (and my friend Morris Edwards was on the gig on bass) that we just pulled together, ignored his BS and made the best music we could.

You worked with Hadda Brooks?! Sir, I must bow in your honor.

Fun film fact: she's the pianist/singer during the nightclub scene in Bogart's IN A LONELY PLACE.

Edited October 27, 2009 by ghost of miles

[Christiern]

Frankly, Allen, the more you go on about this, repeating the list name over and over again, the more validity Mike's action gets.

[JSngry]

It is a private list - you have to be invited to join in, even to read it. The point Allen is making is MF does not want anything from the list repeated anywhere. A few members have forwarded messages to me with the strict order to keep it private so they won't get in trouble.

Sounds pretty untenable to me too. But still, private.

I mean, c'mon, this ain't the Pentagon Papers or the Downing Street Memo. National security is definitely not at risk. You make a deal at the front, you honor it at the back, unless lives or something like that are at stake. Code of honor.

I know, old-fashioned. Whatever.

[AllenLowe]

cmon, guys, this is silly - I am not revealing OTHER people's info or posts - I am simply posting here and saying things like "as I mentioned on the jazz research line" - "as I heard on the jazz research line" or "a point I made on the jazz research line" - this ain't the friggin CIA.

And thanks, Jsngry, for taking this opportunity to turn this into a personal attack (rather than just discussing the general issue). This why we don't communicate, as you just basically keep looking for your opportunity. And your last point makes utterly no sense - you say it ain't the Pentagon Papers - so I should honor it? Or not? I should take the edict unless lives are at stake? Give me a break.

And Chris, saying that my repeated voicing of my disagreement with Fitzgerald's policy only proves him right is like saying that your repeated objections to Israel policies only prove Israel is right - it makes no sense.

Edited October 27, 2009 by AllenLowe

[ghost of miles]

How 'bout dem (damn) Yankees?

[AllenLowe]

"But from what I can gather, he wants this group to be limited to people with serious chops and credentials, and to that I say, yeah, right on. It is his thing after all.Oh yeah, right... that's not acceptable to you"

this is an extremely dishonest way of arguing - because I NEVER said anything like that, that it was not acceptable. Stop making things up, please.

[JSngry]

And thanks, Jsngry, for taking this opportunity to turn this into a personal attack (rather than just discussing the general issue). This why we don't communicate, as you just basically keep looking for your opportunity. And your last point makes utterly no sense - you say it ain't the Pentagon Papers - so I should honor it? Or not? I should take the edict unless lives are at stake? Give me a break.

The issue is that you made a deal to keep a group private and now are going back on it.

[AllenLowe]

when did I make a deal to keep the group private? And since when did I LOSE the intellectual property that constitutes my own posts on that group?

Edited October 27, 2009 by Jim Alfredson

[Christiern]

Allen: "And Chris, saying that my repeated voicing of my disagreement with Fitzgerald's policy only proves him right is like saying that your repeated objections to Israel policies only prove Israel is right - it makes no sense."

You can do better than that.

[AllenLowe]

my point is that repeating a forbidden thing doesn't justify the repressive notions of the person who intitially decided that that thing was forbidden - in this case it sheds a little light on an extremely unfair practice (and by the way I think that jazz research is a yahoo group, which does not exactly insure or guaranteee privacy). So your argument might be - "well, he is entitled to maintain the privacy of this group because..."

but to say that my repeated objection to (and exposure of) his policy justifies his actions is a bit, in principle, like blaming the victim.

Edited October 27, 2009 by AllenLowe

[AllenLowe]

and lets look at Yahoo's own licensing policy:

"a. However, with respect to Content you submit or make available for inclusion on publicly accessible areas of the Yahoo! Services, you grant Yahoo! the following worldwide, royalty-free and non-exclusive license(s), as applicable:

b. With respect to Content other than photos, graphics, audio or video you submit or make available for inclusion on publicly accessible areas of the Yahoo! Services other than Yahoo! Groups, the perpetual, irrevocable and fully sublicensable license to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, publicly perform and publicly display such Content (in whole or in part) and to incorporate such Content into other works in any format or medium now known or later developed."

So basically Yahoo has the right to all text content and can use it at will - does Fitzgerald know this? It makes his restrictions somewhat useles -

Edited October 27, 2009 by AllenLowe

[Quincy]

Not "at will" as there are numerous conditions. When these sort of conditions first appeared a lot of people panicked (and egos inflated too), thinking every word written could somehow be published as some literary masterpiece by Yahoo Press. Hasn't happened as far as I know, but if you really think you have something of marketable value then I suppose one should consult a lawyer before setting up such a group. We all know jazz research is pathway to riches!

If you go further down the list of conditions relating to section b., there's a "However, publicly accessible areas of the Yahoo! Services would not include portions of Yahoo! Groups that are limited to members..." These sort of agreements have conditions all over the place, but a more "carefree" reading is that they're protecting their ass end from lawsuits when content is shared on their boards.

Okay, I can't read any more Yahoo verbiage before lunch or else I'll fall asleep...

Edited October 27, 2009 by Quincy

[AllenLowe]

well, hmm...that language is difficult. But nothing that guarantees internal privacy, if I read correctly -

[fasstrack]

I must say that my long-time experience with Mike Fitzgerald has always been positive. I admire the work he does and understand why he may sometimes have to put his foot down. The corner woman and all that jazz is quite another matter. Does anyone remember a New York jazz spot called Michael's Pub? It was managed (owned) by a rude s.o.b. who tainted the club's atmosphere to the point where it became a chore having to go there, even if a favorite was appearing. The bastard deserved to go out of business and I don't think a single tear was shed in the jazz community. Anyone remember that place?

I certainly do. I worked there with Hadda Brooks, a great singer-pianist from L.A., for a month in '94. Gil Wiest is his name (the brother of actress Dianne)---and his reputation preceded him. He gave myself and Ms. Brooks the hardest time he could----but we never took the bait. She was such a great singer (and my friend Morris Edwards was on the gig on bass) that we just pulled together, ignored his BS and made the best music we could.

You worked with Hadda Brooks?! Sir, I must bow in your honor.

Fun film fact: she's the pianist/singer during the nightclub scene in Bogart's IN A LONELY PLACE.

I bow in her honor. Great lady, memorable gig. She was also in Out of the Blue with Bogie and we performed the title tune. Also---contemporaneous with that gig there was a movie with Sean Penn----The Crossing Guard----that must've come and gone in a flash, Hadda sang Anywhere, Anyplace, Anytime to Penn's character in it. I would've loved to have seen that.

She sang The Thrill is Gone rubato, with me strumming and Morris bowing and gave me a chill I'll always remember.

Edited October 27, 2009 by fasstrack

[AllenLowe]

she also sang a song in the Nick Ray movie In a Lonely Place (may have been the song Out of the Past) -

[Big Beat Steve]

Be that as it may as far as forum policies are concerned, but THIS:

And since when did I LOSE the intellectual property that constitutes my own posts on that group?

is a very, very valid point IMHO.

And it shows how absurd the said board rules are.

[Jim Alfredson]

Seems to me its Mike's list, he can do whatever he wants with it. If you don't approve, then don't be a part of it.

Kind of like here.

Let's try to stay away from personal attacks, please.

[Christiern]

:tup Jim

[AllenLowe]

yes, it's Mike's list - I never said he did not have the right to run it as he wants to - though by yahoo rules I am not altogether certain of his edicts -

only that his way of running it is inappropriate and ethically bankrupt. Though I do not believe he has the right to use the work of those on the list for his sole edification.

and Chris, you are missing the point that by even commenting on it in THIS place you are in violation and subject to removal from Jazz Research. Are you ok with that? (it's sorta like Fight Club) -

sure he has the right (maybe), but Mike's way of doing things is a little like the old New Yorker cartoon - it's in a restaurant and the sign says "we reserve the right to arrange seating" - and an angry waitress has everyone in the place sitting on top of each other on one chair.

Edited October 27, 2009 by AllenLowe

[Jazzmoose]

And thanks, Jsngry, for taking this opportunity to turn this into a personal attack (rather than just discussing the general issue).

My god, I am so fucking sick of you screaming about 'personal attacks' whenever anyone disagrees with you on anything.

[AllenLowe]

tough luck Moose - especially since the offending post got edited out. So you probably didn't even see his original. Too bad.

I'm not exactly enamored of your calling me a liar and other assorted things in the past -

but thanks for sharing -

Edited October 27, 2009 by AllenLowe

[Johnny E]

Me, kicked off a discussion board? NEVER. Seems I have an incredible knack for saying just what moderators like to hear.

BTW, have I mentioned that I believe Jim is the most smokin' organ player I have ever seen? And Joe and Randy??? Amazing!

BTW, have I mentioned that I believe Jim is the most smokin' organ player I have ever seen? And Joe and Randy??? Amazing!

[AllenLowe]

yes, I think we met on the Young Republicans Forum.

[JSngry]

tough luck Moose - especially since the offending post got edited out. So you probably didn't even see his original. Too bad.

Actually....the post that got edited came after the post Moose quoted...and I didn't edit it, but there's no moderator's stamp on it either.

I can only assume, then, that it was an act of God.

Jeez, Jim, you having to outsource the moderator's gig now?

[Teasing the Korean]

yes, I think we met on the Young Republicans Forum.