Last gasp of the Great American Songbook

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I was wondering when the GAS died. Probably in the fifties.

"Cry me a river"? Well, a great, great song, with brilliant words - what could be better than

"told me love was too plebian

told me you were through with me and

NOW (which should be sung/played triumphantly) you say you want me..."

But does the fact that it was introduced (I think) in the film "The girl can't help it" disqualify it, in view of the class bias of the GAS?

Or perhaps there were later songs that are genuinely part of the GAS...

Some songs from "My fair lady"? "I could have danced all night"? Would you count that? Not sure myself.

Or "West side story"? Nothing really, I think. And certainly nothing from "The sound of music".

But there's Henry Mancini - "Days of wine and roses" from about 1962/3. Damn fine song. Gritty. Maybe too gritty. Despite the "and you", that's still a song about alcoholism (to me).

Or a couple that Andre & Dory wrote - "That's how it went, all right" and "Goodbye Charlie" - but both about murder. So... Hm. And, who knows those songs ayway?

Same goes for a couple of Tommy Wolf songs - "Ballad of the sad young men" and "Spring can really hang you up the most" (also I don't know when they were introduced).

No Stephen Sondheim, or that geezer who wrote JC Superstar (are Brits allowed in the GAS? Is "The very thought of you" in there?)

What do you think?

MG

[Big Beat Steve]

Good questions.

What I think you mean is "When did U.S. popular/show/Browadway music stop adding to songs that might be turned into jazz standards?"

Right?

FWIW, I remember reading a review of a jazz record of the late 50s that was made up of tunes from some Broadway musical and the reviewer kept referring to the odd song selection, incliding "Spring Can Really Hang You Up The Most" as an example of tunes that would probably never make it into standards or even be remembered by other jazzmen to be picked for versions of their own. Ho hum ...

(Can't remember the leader's name but the record is BOUND to be out there...)

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Not necessarily jazz standards. It's unlikely that all, or perhaps even most, of the GAS material has turned into jazz standards. Think of songs like Porter's "Begin the beguine" or "I've got you under my skin" - hardly jazz standards (though there are some jazz versions), but well known. And there's a raft of material by the GAS writers that rarely surfaces - "Blah, blah, blah", "By Strauss" or "Of thee I sing" all by the Gershwins.

MG

[medjuck]

I'm pretty sure that Cry Me a River was a hit a couple of years before The Girl Can't Help It.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I'm pretty sure that Cry Me a River was a hit a couple of years before The Girl Can't Help It.

Don't know - the LP "Julie is her name" (Liberty 3006 mono) came out in Jan 1956. Liberty only started up in 1955, which is when the LP was recorded, I expect. (I don't have a Liberty singles discography.)

Were there earlier versions, I wonder?

And who's Arthur Hamilton (the writer)?

MG

[crisp]

The Great American songbook is a bit like jazz in that it's hard to pin down in words, but you know it when you hear it (or don't).

I think of it as (very broadly speaking) standing for songs that couple a certain level of sophistication (intellectually, emotionally) with a certain level of craftsmanship. Anything rock 'n' roll doesn't count, unless its a pastiche by a GAS songwriter (eg Irving Berlin's The Washington Twist). It roughly falls between the decline of operetta and the ascent of rock. Johnny Mercer is a sort of unifying force, since he collaborated with one of the first important GAS composers, Kern, and one of the last, Mancini.

Some of the last practitioners of the GAS are still with us and working. I would definitely include Jerry Herman, Charles Strouse and Stephen Sondheim in there. Cy Coleman died relatively recently, as did Betty Comden. But the GAS ceased to be a cultural force during the Sixties.

I would definitely include all the songs from West Side Story, My Fair Lady and The Sound of Music, all of which are incredible masterworks, whether they are to your (or my) taste or not. All the other songs you mention qualify.

As for Lloyd Webber, no (he's definitely a post-rock 'n' roll composer). But you do get honorary GAS songs imported from other countries, including Britain with Ray Noble, Noel Coward and Eric Maschwitz/Jack Strachey. Autumn Leaves is a French song, but its Mercer lyric qualifies it as a GAS piece. And loads of GAS songs came out of Brazil during the bossa nova craze. And of course many GAS songs come from jazz. Ellington is one of the genre's greatest contributors.

It's an important subject because outside of jazz and the films of Golden Age Hollywood, the GAS is America's greatest contribution to world culture.

[AllenLowe]

I think there's few if any today who can write decently in that style -

however -

I use the idea of it all the time in composition. It's really, for me, the basis of everything. There's plenty of life left in the form, problem is that contemporary composers are clueless in this regard. They are harmonically deficient - and by this I include even most current jazz composers.

Edited October 15, 2009 by AllenLowe

[Chuck Nessa]

I think there's few if any today who can write decently in that style -

however -

I use the idea of it all the time in composition. It's really, for me, the basis of everything. There's plenty of life left in the form, problem is that contemporary composers are clueless in this regard. They are harmonically deficient - and by this I include even most current jazz composers.

Why would we want anyone writing in an old style - appreciate the previous work, mourn the loss and move on. Writing in the earlier style is like playing in the old style and leads to stuff like the HIP movement in classical music, Wynton and Eric Alexander. There are a few extraordinary artists like Ruby Braff to counter theis but... Picking over the bones of a dead music is an interesting hobby for specialists, but is usually just that.

[JSngry]

Bacharach/David masterfully straddled the divide and did whatever it is that gets done when a divide gets masterfully straddled.

But at their best, which was often enough, they deserve a mention in this conversation.

How come nobody ever mentions the "Great Brazilian Songbook", though?

Writing in the earlier style is like playing in the old style and leads to stuff like the HIP movement in classical music, Wynton and Eric Alexander.

Or perhaps more to the point of this thread, Harry Connick Jr.'s originals.

[AllenLowe]

"Writing in the earlier style is like playing in the old style and leads to stuff like the HIP movement in classical music, Wynton and Eric Alexander. There are a few extraordinary artists like Ruby Braff to counter theis but... Picking over the bones of a dead music is an interesting hobby for specialists, but is usually just that."

I disagree - I would cite people like Jaki Byard, but he may be old news by now - but dealing with the old music isn't necessarily picking over the bones - just has to be done in a creative way that expands upon those old things in a knowing way - think also Ran Blake. Not to mention Duke Ellington whose entire output was built on those forms.

give me a few days and I can give a few good other contemporary examples - not trying to be mysterious, just exhausted from my recent trip -

Edited October 15, 2009 by AllenLowe

[BruceH]

I think there's few if any today who can write decently in that style -

however -

I use the idea of it all the time in composition. It's really, for me, the basis of everything. There's plenty of life left in the form, problem is that contemporary composers are clueless in this regard. They are harmonically deficient - and by this I include even most current jazz composers.

Why would we want anyone writing in an old style - appreciate the previous work, mourn the loss and move on. Writing in the earlier style is like playing in the old style and leads to stuff like the HIP movement in classical music, Wynton and Eric Alexander. There are a few extraordinary artists like Ruby Braff to counter theis but... Picking over the bones of a dead music is an interesting hobby for specialists, but is usually just that.

Then call me Mr. Specialist, I guess.

Bacharach/David masterfully straddled the divide and did whatever it is that gets done when a divide gets masterfully straddled.

Why does that last phrase sound vaguely pornographic? Sounds like someone is doing something filthy to that divide.

[Chuck Nessa]

Nothing wrong with being a specialist.

[JSngry]

Bacharach/David masterfully straddled the divide and did whatever it is that gets done when a divide gets masterfully straddled.

Why does that last phrase sound vaguely pornographic? Sounds like someone is doing something filthy to that divide.

It was like an audaciously & professionally confident three-way between Bacharach/David, Tin Pan Alley, & The Brill Building.

And if you can appreciate the beautifully ironic yin-yang sexuality of the Alley vs Building metaphor not just here but in general, hey, front row seats for you!

[Jim R]

An interesting subject, and one that I've pondered before (with no conclusion reached). All I know is that I have just as much love and respect for the works of Jobim, Mancini, Mandel, and others from the latter era of artful composing as I do for Gershwin, Rodgers, Van Heusen...

Instead of trying to answer the question at hand, please allow me to cop out and ask another question. This is a question that one of my older brothers recently posed to me. What was (were) the last "standard(s)"? The last gasp, as it were, for a song worthy of standing on its own merits, without a unique connection to a particular artist, a song widely performed and recorded by a variety of artists, widely recognized, and if you like (up to you), adopted to some degree by jazz musicians.

My sense was that it would have dated back to the early to mid-70's or so. Leon Russell's "This Masquerade"; Stevie Wonder's "You Are The Sunshine Of My Life"; one of Michel Legrand's hits of the era... maybe Van Morrison's "Moondance" (released as a single in '77). I tried to go further ahead than that, and about the closest I came was Billy Joel's "Just The Way You Are", from '79, but that might be stretching it.

There's probably no answer to this one either.

[Larry Kart]

One of the last gasp GAS songs was Cy Coleman and Carolyn Leigh's "Witchcraft" (1957) -- last gasp in that its three-ply flow of melody, harmony and rhythm arguably sounded organic (unlike all of Sondheim IMO), and also it's pretty darn good. Here's a nice version of it by the composer from "Playboy's Penthouse" (Coleman also composed that show's theme song):

The off-screen trumpeter is Charlie Shavers. Dig the rarely heard extra lyrics.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

An interesting subject, and one that I've pondered before (with no conclusion reached). All I know is that I have just as much love and respect for the works of Jobim, Mancini, Mandel, and others from the latter era of artful composing as I do for Gershwin, Rodgers, Van Heusen...

Instead of trying to answer the question at hand, please allow me to cop out and ask another question. This is a question that one of my older brothers recently posed to me. What was (were) the last "standard(s)"? The last gasp, as it were, for a song worthy of standing on its own merits, without a unique connection to a particular artist, a song widely performed and recorded by a variety of artists, widely recognized, and if you like (up to you), adopted to some degree by jazz musicians.

My sense was that it would have dated back to the early to mid-70's or so. Leon Russell's "This Masquerade"; Stevie Wonder's "You Are The Sunshine Of My Life"; one of Michel Legrand's hits of the era... maybe Van Morrison's "Moondance" (released as a single in '77). I tried to go further ahead than that, and about the closest I came was Billy Joel's "Just The Way You Are", from '79, but that might be stretching it.

There's probably no answer to this one either.

Good question, too. I think I'd go for the Joel. Also "New York state of mind" - when was that?

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

The Great American songbook is a bit like jazz in that it's hard to pin down in words, but you know it when you hear it (or don't).

I think of it as (very broadly speaking) standing for songs that couple a certain level of sophistication (intellectually, emotionally) with a certain level of craftsmanship. Anything rock 'n' roll doesn't count, unless its a pastiche by a GAS songwriter (eg Irving Berlin's The Washington Twist). It roughly falls between the decline of operetta and the ascent of rock. Johnny Mercer is a sort of unifying force, since he collaborated with one of the first important GAS composers, Kern, and one of the last, Mancini.

Some of the last practitioners of the GAS are still with us and working. I would definitely include Jerry Herman, Charles Strouse and Stephen Sondheim in there. Cy Coleman died relatively recently, as did Betty Comden. But the GAS ceased to be a cultural force during the Sixties.

I would definitely include all the songs from West Side Story, My Fair Lady and The Sound of Music, all of which are incredible masterworks, whether they are to your (or my) taste or not. All the other songs you mention qualify.

I think I was looking for songs that stand on their own. I do agree that those are great musicals but, since R&H, so many musicals have had their music so deeply embedded in their plots that they can't be heard to best effect separately - of course there are a few exceptions. But the older musicals produced a much more independent type of song (and maybe were worse musicals, as a result). I'm definitely thinking of these songs in the same way that Jim mentioned - independent of specific context, as he's talking about independent of performer.

I'm also not thinking of the whole of the GAS composers' output. Much of it was pretty lightweight.

As for Lloyd Webber, no (he's definitely a post-rock 'n' roll composer). But you do get honorary GAS songs imported from other countries, including Britain with Ray Noble, Noel Coward and Eric Maschwitz/Jack Strachey. Autumn Leaves is a French song, but its Mercer lyric qualifies it as a GAS piece. And loads of GAS songs came out of Brazil during the bossa nova craze. And of course many GAS songs come from jazz. Ellington is one of the genre's greatest contributors.

I like "honorary GAS songs imported from other countries"

It's an important subject because outside of jazz and the films of Golden Age Hollywood, the GAS is America's greatest contribution to world culture.

We're very biased here. More important are capitalism, mass production, the internet, Coca Cola, MacDonalds (or hamburgers generally), jeans, franchising, sitcoms, Rock & Roll, fast food and soap operas. *

MG

PS - * forgot to include the most important - the American language.

[Jazzmoose]

Bacharach/David masterfully straddled the divide and did whatever it is that gets done when a divide gets masterfully straddled.

But at their best, which was often enough, they deserve a mention in this conversation.

I agree. If Bacharach/David songs are excluded then this is even a sillier musical division than usual.

[crisp]

Re standalone songs vs integrated show songs: I see what you're driving at now. That probably started to change when Rodgers left Hart for Hammerstein. Oscar Hammerstein's way of thinking came to dominate American musicals after the war, ultimately leading to the highly integrated likes of Sondheim. But there continued to be fluffy musicals from Hollywood for a few more years, yielding many standalone songs, and GAS songwriters continued to write film title songs, standalone record hits, lyrics to jazz instrumentals...

Re bias: I am biased, it's true. Maybe I should have said "greatest contribution to world art".

Following on from earlier comments on the last of the standards, I can't think of soft rock ballads as standards no matter how many times they are performed, but maybe that's my prejudice. It probably stems from the lyrics. Billy Joel is actually quite a meticulous lyricist, no matter how much he is criticised (and that's probably one of the reasons WHY he is criticised), but many of the others (Stevie Wonder for example) are very sloppy and unsatisfying. Harry Connick's own songs are awful. In any case, these modern songs seem to belong, not so much to a different era, but a different world; a different mindset. There is certainly more jazz in Lorenz Hart, say, than in Billy Joel. And Bacharach is a massive exception, to be sure (but even he can't tap into it these days).

Witchcraft is a good suggestion for the last standard. I would also suggest I Wanna Be Around, Call Me Irresponsible, The Girl From Ipanema, The Days of Wine and Roses, Hello Dolly... all those mid-Sixties last-gasp song hits before rock 'n' roll became the dominant music of our time.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Re standalone songs vs integrated show songs: I see what you're driving at now. That probably started to change when Rodgers left Hart for Hammerstein. Oscar Hammerstein's way of thinking came to dominate American musicals after the war, ultimately leading to the highly integrated likes of Sondheim. But there continued to be fluffy musicals from Hollywood for a few more years, yielding many standalone songs, and GAS songwriters continued to write film title songs, standalone record hits, lyrics to jazz instrumentals...

Yes, I wasn't suggesting that the changeover was absolute. We agree that R&H was the changeover from R&H

Re bias: I am biased, it's true. Maybe I should have said "greatest contribution to world art".

Yes - culture is the way people (whole societies) live; art is something that some people do for a living.

Following on from earlier comments on the last of the standards, I can't think of soft rock ballads as standards no matter how many times they are performed, but maybe that's my prejudice. It probably stems from the lyrics. Billy Joel is actually quite a meticulous lyricist, no matter how much he is criticised (and that's probably one of the reasons WHY he is criticised), but many of the others (Stevie Wonder for example) are very sloppy and unsatisfying. Harry Connick's own songs are awful. In any case, these modern songs seem to belong, not so much to a different era, but a different world; a different mindset. There is certainly more jazz in Lorenz Hart, say, than in Billy Joel. And Bacharach is a massive exception, to be sure (but even he can't tap into it these days).

I think you're right about all this, but I'm not sure that the lyrics are the culprit. Or not specifically. Berlin and Porter (and sometimes Carmichael) were about the only songwriters of the GAS period to handle music and lyrics. Porter was superb at lyrics; always, I think. Compared to him, Berlin was a journeyman at it. And Hoagy was often extremely naff (much though I love his songs).

I suspect the problem with lyrics was singer/songwriters. As black popular music developed in the forties, singers, particularly the ones working for the indie companies, wrote their own material. Much of this material was not great - until Percy Mayfield emerged - but it reflected the way the black community lived and what they thought about and, importantly, was an utterly appropriate match to the delivery of the singer/songwriter (well, I supose there were exceptions to that).

White popular music continued to be dominated by singers who did nothing else (Fisher, Como, Damone, Crosby, Sinatra) for a long time after the R&B singer/songwriter emerged. But when the pop singer/songwriters emerged, they were no better at handling music and lyrics than their predecessors in R&B (and, as Larry pointed out in his book, were actually worse because the fit between words and music did not reflect normal speech patterns). In contrast, songs by Bacharach/David, Goffin/King, Ashford/Simpson, Holland/Dozier/Holland, McDonald/Salter and many others, were significantly better crafted (again there are exceptions like Bill Withers).

Witchcraft is a good suggestion for the last standard. I would also suggest I Wanna Be Around, Call Me Irresponsible, The Girl From Ipanema, The Days of Wine and Roses, Hello Dolly... all those mid-Sixties last-gasp song hits before rock 'n' roll became the dominant music of our time.

You've reminded me I left my heart in San Francisco Also, "The good life" and "More" and some Anthony Newley/Norman Newell songs - all 'honorary' GAS songs?

MG

[crisp]

MG, I agree with all your points.

One thing: I would look again at Berlin's lyrics. He is in my view the best lyricist of them all. Nobody wrote with such simplicity, purity and clarity. There are rarely if any false rhymes, backward constructions or illogicalities in Berlin's lyrics. Harold Arlen said "They sound as if God wrote them" or words to that effect because they are so natural.

Also, Frank Loesser wrote both words and music in the second half of his career.

Your honorary GAS songs all fit in my book (or songbook). All from the same period as the "last gasp" songs I listed (not meant to be a definitive list).

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

MG, I agree with all your points.

One thing: I would look again at Berlin's lyrics. He is in my view the best lyricist of them all. Nobody wrote with such simplicity, purity and clarity. There are rarely if any false rhymes, backward constructions or illogicalities in Berlin's lyrics. Harold Arlen said "They sound as if God wrote them" or words to that effect because they are so natural.

I'm sure you know much better than I do on this. (And Harold Arlen, too.)

Also, Frank Loesser wrote both words and music in the second half of his career.

Yes, I think I've seen his name alone on credits. Thanks for the reminder.

Your honorary GAS songs all fit in my book (or songbook). All from the same period as the "last gasp" songs I listed (not meant to be a definitive list).

I meant honorary in the sense you used it - the latter list of songs I mentioned were all by foreigners.

MG

[AllenLowe]

two - or is it three - words:

Jimmy Van Heusen.

Greatest songwriter of the 20th century.

[JSngry]

And a helluva shirtmaker as well.

He should've collaborated with Paul Anka.

[rockefeller center]

And a helluva shirtmaker as well.

He should've collaborated with Paul Anka.

That's just the fucking way it is.