West Coast Jazz Recommendations

[Larry Kart]

This 1998 Childers big-band album is nice:

http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Happening-Buddy-Childers-Band/dp/B0000250O4/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1423152408&sr=1-2&keywords=buddy+childers

This, from Childers' LA Times obit, is interesting:

In the 1980s, Childers served as musical director for Frank Sinatra Jr. and went along when Sinatra Jr. was asked to lead the Frank Sinatra orchestra.

"He's the best boss I've ever had in the music business," Childers said of Sinatra Jr. in the 1996 Times article, "a person who really treats musicians with respect." The older Sinatra, he said, "doesn't know I exist."

[Larry Kart]

London was superb in two superb westerns of the late '50s -- Anthony Mann's "Man of the West" (1958), with Gary Cooper (his final film), and Robert Parrish's "The Wonderful Country" (1959), with Robert Mitchum. The latter has a superb Alex North score, and the cast includes Satchel Paige.

[JSngry]

​The other kinds of swing you mention weren't on these guys' radar screens, either because there weren't that many recorded examples of bebop swing in a big band setting (Blakey with Eckstine, Joe Harris with Gillespie?), while big bands with hardbop swing or Elvin swing were still a ways in the future.

Right, but I heard the "Basie swing" thing made well into the 1970s when chatting with the band on breaks...it just seemed weird, because that band had developed their own "versions" of all of those later grooves, as well as perfecting - or at least modernized - their take on earlier internal ones. What they might have lacked in distinctive soloists, they made up for in ensemble groupthink, which by now I've come to admire a lot more than I used to.

The reference was also used frequently in the Lab Band program (aka Attempted Junior Varsity Kentonia), but there it was like a trap being set with a false choice, kinda like, ok, you can play that old fashioned Basie swing or YOU CAN JOIN US...it was like this weird tunnelvisioned Either/Or thing.

Funky.

[Teasing the Korean]

A detailed account of what it was like at a good many independent jazz labels of the '50s (or within jazz enclaves at major labels of the time) is a book I'd snap up. Things must have been particularly off the wall at Liberty under or around Harry Babasin (this after Babasin’s Nocturne label days with drummer Roy Harte), witness “Jazz Mad, featuring The Unpredictable Steve White”:

This would be a great book. Surprised that no one ever wrote one.

[ArtSalt]

I've always thought that a biography on Lester Koenig would be a worthwhile endeavour for someone and is long over due.

You've got his career in the film industry, subsequent black listing and then the two records labels that represented the old and new schools in jazz: the moldy fig vs the modernist. Also the technical side of the recordings being technically superior to recordings by other labels, including Blue Note.

[ArtSalt]

Get's a brief mention in Gioia's book: The Mastersounds.

It's hard to not avoid the comparison with the MJQ - definitely they were their equal musically - if not in longevity and number of albums released.

[johnblitweiler]

I've always thought that a biography on Lester Koenig would be a worthwhile endeavour for someone and is long over due.

You've got his career in the film industry, subsequent black listing and then the two records labels that represented the old and new schools in jazz: the moldy fig vs the modernist. Also the technical side of the recordings being technically superior to recordings by other labels, including Blue Note.

And seeing that he was either a partner or owner in a record distributorship is also tantalizing. Did they distribute only jazz? What other labels did they distribute besides Koenig's? What were his WW2 experiences, his times hanging out with Arnold Schoenberg and other expatriate composers, his side of the Ornette and Art Pepper and H. Hawes stories, his work/life in the '60s and later? Maybe a good writer like Laurie Pepper could tackle the job.

For that matter, John Koenig would have interesting stories to tell. I believe he became a lawyer out of disgust with the legal fight over his father's estate.

[ArtSalt]

Indeed, he co-wrote the documentary The Memphis Belle, interestingly, the poetic narration is all Sgt. Koenig's and also the propaganda film Tarzan Triumphs. He was screenwriter on a few others during the war.

John has provided some details in the past, in his member profile of the Internet Cello Society, here it is, all too brief in James Harrod's Jazzwestcoastresearch blog:

http://jazzwestcoastresearch.blogspot.nl/2012_11_01_archive.html

I would imagine the LA Jazz Institute would have some interesting documents in their archives, but I imagine John Koenig would be a necessary primary source for what first hand accounts of his father.

[Peter Friedman]

Get's a brief mention in Gioia's book: The Mastersounds.

It's hard to not avoid the comparison with the MJQ - definitely they were their equal musically - if not in longevity and number of albums released.

Sorry but, in my opinion, The Mastersounds were by no means the musical equal of the MJQ.

The Mastersounds music was pleasant, but not anything more. The MJQ was better in pretty much every way.

[Leeway]

In the April 1994 issue of Cadence magazine Teddy Edwards was interviewed and the subject of West Coast Jazz came up. In Mr. Edwards view, racial prejudice was a factor in the music:

"See, the recording companies out of the East recorded mostly Black musicians, with exceptions of guys like Zoot Sims, Stan Getz, and a few others. The music was hard and swinging out of the East and was light and delicate out of the West Coast thing, The Jazz out of the East was heavy and Black and out of the West was light and White, that's the way it sounded. We had plenty of hard hitters there [West] but we didn't get recorded. Sonny Criss, Hampton Hawes, Wardell, all of us, but we were ignored for mostly a racial thing. It was very racially motivated."

Edwards singled out Pacific Jazz label as being particularly racially motivated.

[Larry Kart]

In the April 1994 issue of Cadence magazine Teddy Edwards was interviewed and the subject of West Coast Jazz came up. In Mr. Edwards view, racial prejudice was a factor in the music:

"See, the recording companies out of the East recorded mostly Black musicians, with exceptions of guys like Zoot Sims, Stan Getz, and a few others. The music was hard and swinging out of the East and was light and delicate out of the West Coast thing, The Jazz out of the East was heavy and Black and out of the West was light and White, that's the way it sounded. We had plenty of hard hitters there [West] but we didn't get recorded. Sonny Criss, Hampton Hawes, Wardell, all of us, but we were ignored for mostly a racial thing. It was very racially motivated."

Edwards singled out Pacific Jazz label as being particularly racially motivated.

There's certainly something to what Edwards said, but he himself did record two albums as a leader for Pacific Jazz in 1960, and four for Contemporary from 1960-2, five if you count "Back to the Avalon," which was not released until the 1990s, I think. And Hampton Hawes was ignored? Lester Koenig, IIRC, recorded Hawes as often as he could when Hawes was not incarcerated.

[JSngry]

http://www.jazzdisco.org/teddy-edwards/discography/

What I found almost unbelievable is the gap between 1948-1958. You don't see generally see a gap like that unless somebody is sick or in jail. Hell, even Dexter got in a few sessions between now and then.

Also remember that, per Gioia, Edwards was the first tenor player w/The Lighthouse all Starts, and that "Sunset Eyes" was their theme. And then all that started changing, nor with any indication of it being anything personally racist by the players, it just got to be a "social club" based on all those studio guys having the histories that they did. But Teddy was evolved out of that , for sure, and right about the time the PJ/Press hype thing started taking off.

But a ten year recording gap, how the hell did that happen? Did he get bitter and hermetic or something? There were a few LA labels recording Black players during this time, not as big of labels as PJ/Contemporary, but still...damn, 10 years?

Still, form being the original Lighthouse band to not getting paid until 1958...that's a long time to wait in that Get Paid HERE line, that's just weird.

[Big Beat Steve]

Well, right in the middle of that period he was with the Brown-Roach Quintet and recorded with them in April, 1954 (including "Sunset Eyes"). So he must have been around and present in some way ...

[paul secor]

He did have a moment with the Clifford Brown/Max Roach band in 1954 (just see Steve pointed that out as I was writing this) and recorded with Gerald Wilson's big band in 1953 but, other than that, you're right. That was it, as far as recording went.

As for the reason, I'd take his word for it.

Edited February 9, 2015 by paul secor

[Big Beat Steve]

I would not doubt that some of this problem was at work there but to what extent overall?

It will probably be for others with more facts on hand or insiders' knowledge to say if the West Coast of the 50s was that much more dominated by race issues than the East Coast of the same period and if the same was true for PJ, in particular (if so, they certainly made amends as the 50s turned into the 60s). Was Chico Hamilton then an alibi black bandleader for them on his numerous leader dates? Or was this a case of the sound they were after (which up to 1957 or so certainly may NOT have been hard bop and its typical exponents)?

Like it had been said here before, what about overall recording opportunities there?

Naming just one example, what about Dootone, for example? Dootsie Williams was the archetypical black record business entrepreneur, after all, and certainly not one affected by white sensibilities.

Among the few jazz albums there, Dexter Gordon recorded for the label as a leader, and so did Carl Perkins, Buddy Collette and Curtis Counce (who all were present on other WCJ sessions on other labels in the 50s as well).

Wouldn't Teddy Edwards have fitted right in there on Dootone?

Or was this also a "Teddy Edwards thing" that may have led to him being bypassed, for whatever reason (that may have made him less of a choice artist for the record producers)? Just wondering ...

Edited February 9, 2015 by Big Beat Steve

[paul secor]

I doubt that Dootone was a major force (except perhaps for a few r&b singles and a bunch of comedy records) outside of the L.A. area. I believe that Dootone recorded only Dexter, Counce, Perkins, and Collette. Perhaps Dootsie Williams gave up on jazz before he got around to Teddy Edwards. By 1958, he was making his money from Redd Foxx and similar comedy records.

It's hard for me to ignore the strong possibility (fact?) that race played a big part in the west coast music business and that had Teddy Edwards been based in New York, he most probably would have been more visible on records.

[Larry Kart]

I was inspired by this thread to order one of the few Teddy Edwards albums I didn't have, his "It's All Right" (OJC, originally on Prestige, rec. 1967). In Mark Gardner's liner notes for Edwards' "Feelin's" (Muse), rec. 1974 -- note the seven-year gap between albums -- Edwards is quoted as follows: "After all the work I put into writing and preparing for the 'It's All Right!' album, and it got so little or no promotion, it kinda killed my soul for making records, so until this day I haven't bothered about approaching anybody about recording."

[Big Beat Steve]

Edwards is quoted as follows: "After all the work I put into writing and preparing for the 'It's All Right!' album, and it got so little or no promotion, it kinda killed my soul for making records, so until this day I haven't bothered about approaching anybody about recording."

Wasn't that a major problem with a ton of jazz LPs released through the decades for many, many artists, regardless of location?

@Paul Secor:

I wouldn't disagree with you about Dootone. The aspect I was getting at was "Was there an opportunity of getting a record out there at all, even if not on PJ"?

And still I wonder ... considering the other black Westcoast jazzmen who DID get on record in the 50s - was it maybe also a case of the SOUND the A&R men were after (and horn-led, hard bop-tinged blowing jazz not being their primary aim, certainly not before 1957/58)? Chico Hamilton, The Mastersounds, etc., and even Hampton Hawes (who did get a lot on record) were a bit different after all.

[JSngry]

I was inspired by this thread to order one of the few Teddy Edwards albums I didn't have, his "It's All Right" (OJC, originally on Prestige, rec. 1967). In Mark Gardner's liner notes for Edwards' "Feelin's" (Muse), rec. 1974 -- note the seven-year gap between albums -- Edwards is quoted as follows: "After all the work I put into writing and preparing for the 'It's All Right!' album, and it got so little or no promotion, it kinda killed my soul for making records, so until this day I haven't bothered about approaching anybody about recording."

Are you speculating that the same attitude that precipitated the gap between 1967 & 1974 was in place between 1948-1958? Those were pretty different time frames as far as jazz and jazz record making. The former thriving, the latter, not so much..

Along those lines, who approached who about Teddy recording for Contemporary? He them, or they, him? Or, I guess more chronologically relevant, PJ, not Contemporary.

Interesting too is the chronology between 1958-1960, two 1958 one-cut sessions for inclusion in a PL "Blues" anthology, a 1959 live half-album side for Metrojazz (coupled with the Metrojazz Sonny Rollins/Music Inn date), and then, finally, the 1960 PJ sessions, which got the ball rolling there for a while. It took two years to get Teddy excited, or what? Seems odd, might not be, sut sure seems.

Let's not overlook, though, that Don Schlitten always made room on his labels for California-based "bop" players - Edwards, Criss, Dolo Coker, Frank Butler, who else?

The label that I always wonder about in all of this is Tampa...their roster was anything but monolithic in terms anything! http://www.discogs.com/label/102350-Tampa-Records

Maybe it all comes down to a variant of this - East Coast jazz labels weren't as "scared" of doing business with possible junkies" as were West Coast labels, although Art Pepper, Chet Baker, Russ Freeman, Hampton Hawes, god know who all else, kinda blows that out the water.

Maybe what it all really comes down to is this - what got widely documented was perfectly valid, but there appears to be no equally valid reason for what didn't get as reasonably equally widely documented that is preliminarily based in "social comfort", which may or may not be primarily driven by race, and definitely should be examined on a case-by-case basis.

As Gioia speculates, what might have transpired in terms of a larger net being cast for recording opportunities of the LA "bop" players if Ross Russell had, if not stayed in California himself, at least kept an active Dial presence in the city?

Gerald Wiggins?

[Leeway]

More from the Teddy Edwards interview:

He was asked about his absence from the recording scene. Edwards" From the recording scene I disappeared, but I was still playing. I was playing in burlesque joints. I was cut out of the recording scene completely because I didn't fit with what they were doing. I was playing too strong, too powerful."

Asked if he had played "cool," would his situation have been better? TE: "I would have had a better chance but maybe not." He goes on to explain that on a Gerry Mulligan date, they used Chico Hamilton and Chico brought in Buddy Collette. They were promised their own dates. "I think they were basically the only two Black people they use don that label [PJ], and Buddy was kind of a light (stylistically) player all that time."

According to TE, "basically they were the only two Black guys they used at Pacific until they had to change their tune until he [bock] did a complete about face when his pocketbook ran out and then I think the only (white) one was Bud Shank. But this is life. I never stopped doing my work. I played in Blues & Rhythm, Latin bands, burlesque, whatever."

BTW, he had much nicer things to say about Lester Koenig.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Leeway

[Larry Kart]

I was inspired by this thread to order one of the few Teddy Edwards albums I didn't have, his "It's All Right" (OJC, originally on Prestige, rec. 1967). In Mark Gardner's liner notes for Edwards' "Feelin's" (Muse), rec. 1974 -- note the seven-year gap between albums -- Edwards is quoted as follows: "After all the work I put into writing and preparing for the 'It's All Right!' album, and it got so little or no promotion, it kinda killed my soul for making records, so until this day I haven't bothered about approaching anybody about recording."

Are you speculating that the same attitude that precipitated the gap between 1967 & 1974 was in place between 1948-1958? Those were pretty different time frames as far as jazz and jazz record making. The former thriving, the latter, not so much..

Along those lines, who approached who about Teddy recording for Contemporary? He them, or they, him? Or, I guess more chronologically relevant, PJ, not Contemporary.

Interesting too is the chronology between 1958-1960, two 1958 one-cut sessions for inclusion in a PL "Blues" anthology, a 1959 live half-album side for Metrojazz (coupled with the Metrojazz Sonny Rollins/Music Inn date), and then, finally, the 1960 PJ sessions, which got the ball rolling there for a while. It took two years to get Teddy excited, or what? Seems odd, might not be, sut sure seems.

Let's not overlook, though, that Don Schlitten always made room on his labels for California-based "bop" players - Edwards, Criss, Dolo Coker, Frank Butler, who else?

The label that I always wonder about in all of this is Tampa...their roster was anything but monolithic in terms anything! http://www.discogs.com/label/102350-Tampa-Records

Maybe it all comes down to a variant of this - East Coast jazz labels weren't as "scared" of doing business with possible junkies" as were West Coast labels, although Art Pepper, Chet Baker, Russ Freeman, Hampton Hawes, god know who all else, kinda blows that out the water.

Maybe what it all really comes down to is this - what got widely documented was perfectly valid, but there appears to be no equally valid reason for what didn't get as reasonably equally widely documented that is preliminarily based in "social comfort", which may or may not be primarily driven by race, and definitely should be examined on a case-by-case basis.

As Gioia speculates, what might have transpired in terms of a larger net being cast for recording opportunities of the LA "bop" players if Ross Russell had, if not stayed in California himself, at least kept an active Dial presence in the city?

Gerald Wiggins?

Have no idea whether what precipitated the first gap in Edwards' recording career was the same as what precipitated the second -- or even if Edward's explanation of the second gap is the whole story there (I suspect not). But what he said to Mark Gardner does suggest that he was a man whose response to frustration/ill-treatment was hurt feelings and withdrawal to some degree rather than to keep knocking on doors.

I think Edwards might have been one of those artists who needed a connected advocate. Aside from the '40s material, I first came across him as the only horn on a very good Atlantic date led by pianist Joe Castro, "Groove Funk Soul," with LeRoy Vinnegar and the young Billy Higgins (it may have been Higgins' debut on records). Castro, who could play, also was Doris Duke's companion of the time (many sessions were held at Duke's L.A.-area mansion, Falcon's Lair) and perhaps Castro, who appeared as a sideman on one of Edwards' Contemporary albums (was it the first?) did some coat pulling on Edwards' behalf. Thanks be that Edwards for a time had an advocate with direct access to a record label in Don Schlitten.

[Larry Kart]

Groove Funk Soul (Atlantic 1324) was recorded on July 18, 1958. As you can see from Edwards’ discography:

http://www.jazzdisco.org/teddy-edwards/discography/

there were several abortive Edwards dates for Pacific Jazz in May 1958 that produced a few tracks that appeared on PJ anthologies before the first half of Edwards first PJ album “Sunset Eyes,” was recorded on March 21, 1960; the second half of the album, with Castro, Vinnegar, and Higgins, was recorded Aug. 16, 1960. In between, on May 2, 1960, Edwards recorded the PJ album “It’s About Time” with Les McCann. Edwards first Contemporary album, “Teddy’s Ready!” was recorded with Castro, Vinnegar, and Higgins, the day after the second half of the “Sunset Eyes” album, on Aug. 17, 1960.

Is there any backstory here? I’ve heard that PJ’s Dick Bock could be a quirky guy in the studio — he certainly was notorious for editing pieces with a free, and often inept, hand (see Bill Perkins Cadence interview on this subject) and/or playing other dire tricks in the post-recording process (e.g. adding Larry Bunker’s dubbed-in drums to Jim Hall’s drum-less “Jazz Guitar” album). Could those two initial Pacific Jazz Edwards-led small ensemble dates have been abortive because Bock got pushy about how things should go, and Edwards either came back at him in kind or withdrew, and/or Bock just pulled the plug? Don’t have Edwards’ Contemporary octet date “Back to Avalon” anymore, but FWIW my memory is that it was a damp squib for the most part.

[Teasing the Korean]

I’ve heard that PJ’s Dick Bock could be a quirky guy in the studio — he certainly was notorious for editing pieces with a free, and often inept, hand (see Bill Perkins Cadence interview on this subject) and/or playing other dire tricks in the post-recording process (e.g. adding Larry Bunker’s dubbed-in drums to Jim Hall’s drum-less “Jazz Guitar” album).

One of the weirdest things he did was taking some Mastersounds tracks and adding exotic percussion to them to create an exotica LP! The finished album was credited to the two percussionists, Milt Holland and Roy Harte. Everyone on the LP receives credit, though, and the liner notes suggest that it was a single session conceived with everyone's participation. The results are actually pretty good, regardless of how one may feel about it philosophically. Still, an odd record.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Teasing the Korean

[JSngry]

Groove Funk Soul (Atlantic 1324) was recorded on July 18, 1958. As you can see from Edwards’ discography:

http://www.jazzdisco.org/teddy-edwards/discography/

there were several abortive Edwards dates for Pacific Jazz in May 1958 that produced a few tracks that appeared on PJ anthologies before the first half of Edwards first PJ album “Sunset Eyes,” was recorded on March 21, 1960; the second half of the album, with Castro, Vinnegar, and Higgins, was recorded Aug. 16, 1960. In between, on May 2, 1960, Edwards recorded the PJ album “It’s About Time” with Les McCann. Edwards first Contemporary album, “Teddy’s Ready!” was recorded with Castro, Vinnegar, and Higgins, the day after the second half of the “Sunset Eyes” album, on Aug. 17, 1960.

Is there any backstory here? I’ve heard that PJ’s Dick Bock could be a quirky guy in the studio — he certainly was notorious for editing pieces with a free, and often inept, hand (see Bill Perkins Cadence interview on this subject) and/or playing other dire tricks in the post-recording process (e.g. adding Larry Bunker’s dubbed-in drums to Jim Hall’s drum-less “Jazz Guitar” album). Could those two initial Pacific Jazz Edwards-led small ensemble dates have been abortive because Bock got pushy about how things should go, and Edwards either came back at him in kind or withdrew, and/or Bock just pulled the plug? Don’t have Edwards’ Contemporary octet date “Back to Avalon” anymore, but FWIW my memory is that it was a damp squib for the most part.

Realizing that that jazzdisco.org page might obviously has a few holes in it, not sure if those first two PJ sessions were "abortive" or not? Maybe demo/singles sessions? I don't know.

But let's say that Edwards/Bock was never meant to be, star-crossed lovers, whatever, what to make of Booker 'n' Brass then? That's one of those things I never have figured out in terms of how did THAT record get made like THAT?

Found Back To Avalon a bit of a letdown myself, also, but, you know, not everything goes well all the time, much less superbly.

[David Ayers]

I don't know about West Coast, but a white East Coast bassist told me he felt he was excluded from work by labels who wanted homogeneously black bands. I believe him in the sense that as a musician he was (and still is) better than some of the people who were commonly called. He was at least called for some famous records with white musicians. It is pretty clear that at that time race was a big feature of image and marketing of recorded music.