Miles Davis & Bill Evans

[Teasing the Korean]

Has there been any substantiation or speculation as to why Miles didn't work with Bill Evans after "Kind of Blue?" Bill Evans's playing really creates the mood of that record, arguably to a greater degree than any other single participant. IMHO.

Edited October 3, 2009 by Teasing the Korean

[JETman]

Has there been any substantiation or speculation as to why Miles didn't work will Bill Evans after "Kind of Blue?" Bill Evans's playing really creates the mood of that record, arguably to a greater degree than any other single participant. IMHO.

The only thing I can think of is that maybe Bill's career was starting to take off at that point, and as a result, he had less time available for "sideman" duties.

[JSngry]

Both men felt that although there was enough musical common ground for a fruitful temporary relationship, there was ultimately a bigger gap in their conceptions than there was a similarity.

That, plus the fact that Bill wouldn't blow the band.

[JSngry]

Has there been any substantiation or speculation as to why Miles didn't work will Bill Evans after "Kind of Blue?" Bill Evans's playing really creates the mood of that record, arguably to a greater degree than any other single participant. IMHO.

The only thing I can think of is that maybe Bill's career was starting to take off at that point, and as a result, he had less time available for "sideman" duties.

Evans was a regular member of the working sextet, remember. All involved, including Evans, felt that the more aggressive, uptempo approach of the live band was not his true "comfort zone", although he was certainly adept doing that.

[Matthew]

Has there been any substantiation or speculation as to why Miles didn't work will Bill Evans after "Kind of Blue?" Bill Evans's playing really creates the mood of that record, arguably to a greater degree than any other single participant. IMHO.

The only thing I can think of is that maybe Bill's career was starting to take off at that point, and as a result, he had less time available for "sideman" duties.

Evans was a regular member of the working sextet, remember. All involved, including Evans, felt that the more aggressive, uptempo approach of the live band was not his true "comfort zone", although he was certainly adept doing that.

I agree with the "comfort zone" observation, as Miles progressed, I do not think that Evans would have "fit in" in any real manner, especially if you consider the Miles/Shorter/Hancock incarnation. As Evens himself states, he felt that his musical vision was exploring deeply the more traditional jazz songs, just look at what songs Evans covered after he left Davis, finding new songs that were edgy in terms of composition was not what he was interested in.

[Teasing the Korean]

Thanks all for the replies.

They certainly went in different directions, no argument there. Still, it would have been interesting to hear where they may have headed if they had done more.

[JSngry]

Truthfully, I think Gil, not Bill, was the best Evans for Miles over the long haul.

[Teasing the Korean]

One of the interesting things about Bill Evans is that while you can certainly categorize his playing as "conservative" in some respects, his harmonic approach really set the stage for the next generation of piano players such as Herbie Hancock.

[John L]

I was under the impression that it was Bill Evans who decided to leave the band. No?

[Guy Berger]

One of the interesting things about Bill Evans is that while you can certainly categorize his playing as "conservative" in some respects, his harmonic approach really set the stage for the next generation of piano players such as Herbie Hancock.

I don't think it's an accident that Miles's three keyboardists from 1963-1971 were Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea and Keith Jarrett.

I agree with the "comfort zone" observation, as Miles progressed, I do not think that Evans would have "fit in" in any real manner, especially if you consider the Miles/Shorter/Hancock incarnation. As Evens himself states, he felt that his musical vision was exploring deeply the more traditional jazz songs, just look at what songs Evans covered after he left Davis, finding new songs that were edgy in terms of composition was not what he was interested in.

That may be true, but it was not at all obvious that Miles was going "edgy" after Evans left. If anything the music after Coltrane's departure in early 1960 was more conservative than that made while Bill was in the band.

[Bright Moments]

One of the interesting things about Bill Evans is that while you can certainly categorize his playing as "conservative" in some respects, his harmonic approach really set the stage for the next generation of piano players such as Herbie Hancock.

while herbie acknowledges evans as an influence - his major influence was oscar peterson.

compare when herbie played with miles with when evans played and you will see - THERE IS NO COMPARASION TO BE MADE!

herbie and miles played fusion - because that's what miles wanted to play.

at the same time herbie did maiden voyage on his own - which sounds nothing like waltz for debby.

i cannot fathom any similarities between evans and hancock except that the both hit the 88 black and white keys (as opposed to monk who played the cracks!)

[Teasing the Korean]

i cannot fathom any similarities between evans and hancock except that the both hit the 88 black and white keys (as opposed to monk who played the cracks!)

Well, I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I am a piano player and I have transcribed and analyzed chord voicings and solo styles of a number of pianists. I can definitely see a similarity between Evans's harmonic approach and that of the next generation, including Herbie. I believe HH said in an interview - I can't site when or where right now - that arrangers such as Nelson Riddle helped to inform his harmonic conception. If that is true, I can certainly see how Evans would have done the same.

That aside, I am willing to bet that when "Kind of Blue" was released, HH, CC, KJ and McC T all were listening to what BE was doing on that record.

I believe that Bill Evans's approach overall pointed to a new direction that he himself might not have followed, being that he stuck primarily to the standard 32 bar, AABA standard approach. I think that Evans is an interesting, pivotal figure in that regard.

Again, I don't claim to be an expert, and others may agree or disagree.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Teasing the Korean

[Chuck Nessa]

I think u b out of yr mind.

My reply was to BM, not TTK.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Chuck Nessa

[Bright Moments]

and FWIW evans was only about 10 years older than herbie - hardly the "next generation".

[Teasing the Korean]

and FWIW evans was only about 10 years older than herbie - hardly the "next generation".

Ten years in music is huge.

[Bright Moments]

I think u b out of yr mind.

My reply was to BM, not TTK.

instead of making an ad hominum attack uncle chuck - tell me where you find fault in my post.

and FWIW evans was only about 10 years older than herbie - hardly the "next generation".

Ten years in music is huge.

which proves the point as to the complete lack in similarities between hancock and evans!

[Teasing the Korean]

which proves the point as to the complete lack in similarities between hancock and evans!

Do you seriously believe that? I think that Bill Evans, more than probably any single pianist, stands as a pivotal figure between the bop and post-bop players and the modal and more experimental players of the 60s, who I referenced previously.

EDIT: I should add that my opinion on this is hardly unusual, from what I've read. My ears concur.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Teasing the Korean

[Chuck Nessa]

instead of making an ad hominum attack uncle chuck - tell me where you find fault in my post.

Didn't know it was an attack.

Harmonically, Herbie wouldn't exist without Evans. OP had nothing to offer in that area.

[Matthew]

One of the things that I've read about Evans' influence is how ballads are played. Before Evans, it was stated (I can't find the article, sorry!) that piano players were stuck in a "cocktail style" of ballad playing, but with Evans' approach, a whole new harmonic vista opened up, and one the players who most benefited most from this was Hancock himself.

[Teasing the Korean]

One of the things that I've read about Evans' influence is how ballads are played. Before Evans, it was stated (I can't find the article, sorry!) that piano players were stuck in a "cocktail style" of ballad playing, but with Evans' approach, a whole new harmonic vista opened up, and one the players who most benefited most from this was Hancock himself.

As a piano player, I can truthfully say that from a harmonic standpoint, Evans opened more doors for me that any other jazz pianist, before or after.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Teasing the Korean

[Bright Moments]

instead of making an ad hominum attack uncle chuck - tell me where you find fault in my post.

Didn't know it was an attack.

Harmonically, Herbie wouldn't exist without Evans. OP had nothing to offer in that area.

well the herbie hancock website states:

Beginnings: Early Life and the Miles Davis Quintet

Born in Chicago in 1940, Herbie was a child piano prodigy who performed a Mozart piano concerto with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra at the tender age of 11. He began playing jazz in high school, initially influenced by Oscar Peterson and Bill Evans.

Herbie's webpage

FWIW i think evans was a genius - but just because herbie cites him as an influence doesn't mean that he sounds anything like him.

and using your line of reasoning uncle chuck - if there wasn't an art tatum there wouldn't be an evans!!!!

Edited October 5, 2009 by Bright Moments

[Bright Moments]

One of the things that I've read about Evans' influence is how ballads are played. Before Evans, it was stated (I can't find the article, sorry!) that piano players were stuck in a "cocktail style" of ballad playing, but with Evans' approach, a whole new harmonic vista opened up, and one the players who most benefited most from this was Hancock himself.

herbie is not known for his ballads.

One of the things that I've read about Evans' influence is how ballads are played. Before Evans, it was stated (I can't find the article, sorry!) that piano players were stuck in a "cocktail style" of ballad playing, but with Evans' approach, a whole new harmonic vista opened up, and one the players who most benefited most from this was Hancock himself.

As a piano player, I can truthfully say that from a harmonic standpoint, Evans opened more doors for me that any other jazz pianist, before or after.

what doors are you talking about?

which proves the point as to the complete lack in similarities between hancock and evans!

I think that Bill Evans, more than probably any single pianist, stands as a pivotal figure between the bop and post-bop players and the modal and more experimental players of the 60s, who I referenced previously.

while i adore evans - i believe that george russell more accurately fits this bill.

[Matthew]

One of the things that I've read about Evans' influence is how ballads are played. Before Evans, it was stated (I can't find the article, sorry!) that piano players were stuck in a "cocktail style" of ballad playing, but with Evans' approach, a whole new harmonic vista opened up, and one the players who most benefited most from this was Hancock himself.

As a piano player, I can truthfully say that from a harmonic standpoint, Evans opened more doors for me that any other jazz pianist, before or after.

I often feel, and I have no proof of this other than my ears, but I wonder if any harmonic breakthroughs were Evans and Scott La Faro. What I mean is that if Evans is going somewhere new, the bassist has to either lead, follow, or get the heck out of the way, and LaFaro was with Evans step-by-step, and I sure they both influenced each other.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Matthew

[Teasing the Korean]

while i adore evans - i believe that george russell more accurately fits this bill.

I feel that Russell is recognized more as an arranger than a pianist - from my perspective. I haven't heard everything, and you may be right.

[Teasing the Korean]

what doors are you talking about?

I'm not prepared to type a dissertation, but I can promise you: When I was a teenager, I loved but didn't fully understand what players like Herbie and McCoy were doing. Around the same time, I listened obsessively to "Kind of Blue" and "Sunday at the Village Vanguard." That experience opened doors for me.