Billie Holiday Columbia

[neveronfriday]

well, yes and no - you're right that the mastering should be right and the music should be ready. But mastering engineers, in my experience, often have not a clue about music of this vintage. But as long as they have not changed the wave form (with digital noise reduction) a lot of compensation can be made with a good eq. Best example I can give of this is the old BMG Jelly Roll Morton box, which was roundly castigated when it was released some years ago for sounding dead - everybody blamed "no noise" but that had nothing to do with it, as that system did relatively little at the time it was appplied. I've been able to take that box and make it sound absolutely brilliant (I surprised none other than Larry Gushee with this), but I was somewhat shocked at how much eq'ing that had to be done - but once again, you're right that the sound should be CD ready - on the other hand, if the original sources and transfers were right (as they were with Jelly Roll) than it's worth a little extra effort, especially since, with Sony (as with BMG) you're likely getting originals.

Allen, this has to be my last post for today because I'm swamped with work, but I'd like to respond quickly.

Yes ... and no.

I have absolutely no mastering expertise, so I can only trust my ears (which might be considerably different from other people's ears). I'm also old enough to have reduced hearing capabilities.

Still, I mentioned the Fitzgerald songbooks above. To be quite honest, years after having done so, I'm still seriously irritated (spell: pissed) about having gone with the complete Verve Fitzgerald/Armstrong collection (the blue harmonica thingy) after having sold the Dennis Drake ones I had. To my ears, there simply isn't any comparison. Drake's are tons better.

I hear some of the same things when I compare the Davies remasters of some Holiday material (much like Hans) and the Sony remaster. It's not that extreme, I think, but it's clearly audible.

It's really a personal preference only.

Again, this discussion shouldn't deter anyone (!) from getting this important material. 99% of the customers will be more than happy with what they're getting at this incredible price (and, there's no alternative at all if you want to get the complete* material), but I would have liked something better. I've learned to be much more discerning when spending my money, and there's so much stuff out there to be had for anally retentive people like me that I have no problem living with my (minor?) obsession ...

That's it, really.

[edit] * almost complete ...

Edited September 28, 2009 by neveronfriday

[jazzbo]

Hans, Deus,

Okay.

I have one system that is on the bright side here and these discs sound worse on that. Also a friend of mine's system that is bright these sound worse on. On my more neutral system it does not. That was what my comment meant. Nothing more than that.

If one does have a bright system, I don't think this is the best choice.

[mikeweil]

Amazon.de sells this for EUR 19,95

[Ted O'Reilly]

Amazon.de sells this for EUR 19,95

Amazon.ca has it even cheaper! $18.99 Canadian (plus taxes, shipping & handling, it totals CDN$27.50)

Canadian dollar is about 92 cents US these days, or .63 euros.

http://www.amazon.ca/Billie-Holliday-Holid...450&sr=1-29

I found it even cheaper: CDN$18.78 delivered! It's a Membran bootleg of the Columbia, of course...

Edited September 28, 2009 by Ted O'Reilly

[JSngry]

So, is this the same accompanying book as in the deluxe box, along with the same music, just more basic packaging for much dollars less?

[Chuck Nessa]

The original book would never fit in the new box. I ordered one as a gift and will report back next week when it arrives.

FWIW, I am amazed the cd era has done away with tone controls and equalizers. These were regularly used by "audiophiles" in the vinyl only era.

[neveronfriday]

Amazon.de sells this for EUR 19,95

Amazon.ca has it even cheaper! $18.99 Canadian (plus taxes, shipping & handling, it totals CDN$27.50)

Canadian dollar is about 92 cents US these days, or .63 euros.

http://www.amazon.ca/Billie-Holliday-Holid...450&sr=1-29

I found it even cheaper: CDN$18.78 delivered! It's a Membran bootleg of the Columbia, of course...

It's a Membran bootleg?

Stay away from Membran. They've had very few half-way decent boxes (two, actually, that I've heard). I doubt these are 1:1 copies, especially because most of their "boxed sets" sound like crap.

[mikelz777]

It's a Membran bootleg?

Stay away from Membran. They've had very few half-way decent boxes (two, actually, that I've heard). I doubt these are 1:1 copies, especially because most of their "boxed sets" sound like crap.

I'd have to disagree with your assessment of Membran. I have the 10-CD sets of Billie Holiday, Nat King Cole, Artie Shaw and both the Louis Armstrongs. On top of that, I have 9 of their Quadromania titles. I might warn someone off of these sets if they are really into the info typically included in booklets or if they really wanted the discography info but I can't think of a single set of mine that I wouldn't recommend based on the sound. The only exception I can think of was on one of the Quadromania sets. There might have been a discs worth of material that had pretty bad sound but I would attribute that to the source material. It was a live concert and it sounds like the group was being recorded from a remote mike or mikes. I think the age was a contributing factor as well. It sounded like one of those things that was intended for personal listening and not intended for release. Given the age of much of the material being released on these sets, I'm not expecting clean/pristine modern studio quality recordings. I've been very happy with the sound on the Membran sets. The sound was good enough for me to buy 14 of their sets and I wouldn't think twice about buying another.

Edited September 29, 2009 by mikelz777

[Clunky]

Hans, Deus,

Okay.

I have one system that is on the bright side here and these discs sound worse on that. Also a friend of mine's system that is bright these sound worse on. On my more neutral system it does not. That was what my comment meant. Nothing more than that.

If one does have a bright system, I don't think this is the best choice.

I'm another happy camper regarding the sound of the Columbia box set of Billie's sides, having compared relevant sides with the Hep Teddy Wilson CDs there are differences for sure but the Columbia set gets the nod in packaging, booklet ( or more accurately - book). I doubt the sound will disappoint most people.

The Membrans I've come across aren't appealing, dirt cheap but to be avoided. I'd rather have one decent CD from Hep et al rather than 10 sloppy disc.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

It's a Membran bootleg?

Stay away from Membran. They've had very few half-way decent boxes (two, actually, that I've heard). I doubt these are 1:1 copies, especially because most of their "boxed sets" sound like crap.

I'd have to disagree with your assessment of Membran. I have the 10-CD sets of Billie Holiday, Nat King Cole, Artie Shaw and both the Louis Armstrongs. On top of that, I have 9 of their Quadromania titles. I might warn someone off of these sets if they are really into the info typically included in booklets or if they really wanted the discography info but I can't think of a single set of mine that I wouldn't recommend based on the sound. The only exception I can think of was on one of the Quadromania sets. There might have been a discs worth of material that had pretty bad sound but I would attribute that to the source material. It was a live concert and it sounds like the group was being recorded from a remote mike or mikes. I think the age was a contributing factor as well. It sounded like one of those things that was intended for personal listening and not intended for release. Given the age of much of the material being released on these sets, I'm not expecting clean/pristine modern studio quality recordings. I've been very happy with the sound on the Membran sets. The sound was good enough for me to buy 14 of their sets and I wouldn't think twice about buying another.

I think I'll agree about the sound. Some of the Johnny Dodds Quadromania contains Hot Five material that I have on a real cheapo Laserlight CD and the Membran version is a lot better than the Laserlight. OK, I appreciate that's not saying a lot I also have the Gene Ammons Quadromania set and already had a lot on LP - some since the year dot, so I'm pretty familiar with it. I'm happy with the sound of the Quadromania set. And I recently bought two boxes of Cab Calloway on JSP, remastered by John R T Davies. I haven't tried a back to back comparison with any of the Quadromania material yet but the JSP material doesn't seem so much better. Of course, Membran may have ripped off the JSP stuff - the JSP came out four years before the Quadromania.

The real problem with Quadromania is the packaging and information. The packaging is total crap and the information is often wrong. But, as far as info is concerned, JSP isn't all that great - the Calloway boxes don't have any info on who wrote the tunes, what their original issues were, or who's soloing. In comparison to Frog, or even Hep, that's pretty poor.

Quadromania scores by being cheap, so you can get a box, explore a musician and, if you like the stuff, go on to something better - or at least fuller - as I did with the Calloway. Dealing with it at that level is the right way to think of the firm, I believe.

MG

[neveronfriday]

Quadromania scores by being cheap, so you can get a box, explore a musician and, if you like the stuff, go on to something better - or at least fuller - as I did with the Calloway. Dealing with it at that level is the right way to think of the firm, I believe.

MG

Exactly. That's what they're good for.

In Germany, most of those 10-CD boxes were sold for 5 Euro last year all throughout Germany by one of those remainder book shops. For 5 Euro you can't complain (at all!). I also bought a whole bunch knowing I'd simply give a larger number away.

The two that survived were the Artie Shaw and the Piazzolla. Both were pretty decent-sounding sets with, as mentioned above, absolutely useless info.

The rest (I bought sth like 15 boxes that day) I gave to our school library for those kids (and adults), who think an iPod sounds good out of the box (and stay with those funky ear plugs because they're white).

[AllenLowe]

I'm with Chuck on the equalizer question - for my non-prime system I use an old 12 bander that does wonders to adjust the sound - which is variable not just by recording but by the room in which you're listening to the recording -

[mikeweil]

There was this box set on Definitive which I bought several years ago for just 20 bucks as I misread its description for the Columbia set at a bargain price. It's not from Membran. Sound is good, and since they placed the alternates at the end of each disc and include some live tracks not on the SONY box, I kept it.

But at 20 bucks I still may get the bargain Columbia box.

Edited October 2, 2009 by mikeweil

[AllenLowe]

was fighting the urge, but I just pre-ordered.

[jazzbo]

Cool. I'll be intersted in your opinion of the "sonics."

[Cliff Englewood]

I got this one, I haven't listened to it yet but the packaging is very basic, similar in a way to the Proper boxes ie the cds are in cardboard sleeves. The booklet contains all the notes that were in the original, (I think so anyway), but for this price it can't be beat really. I don't download things myself but I doubt you could download all this music as cheaply, 230 tracks for around €25 - €30, if the future is cheaper packaging, I'm all for the future.

[JSngry]

The booklet contains all the notes that were in the original, (I think so anyway),

Can we get a solid confirmation of this?

[Chuck Nessa]

The booklet contains all the notes that were in the original, (I think so anyway),

Can we get a solid confirmation of this?

Yes, this does not seem possible.

[neveronfriday]

We were, as far as I recall, talking about two different sets. A "size-reduced" reissue of the original box set and one cheapo Membran set (which is probably different).

If Sony did the same as Verve did with, f.ex., the Complete Lester Young (8 CDs in two fat jewelcases), it is possible to include a booklet or two reprinting the original box's contents, especially because there wasn't THAT much in there. If you reduce all of that to font size, 6, it's easily reprinted in one of those small booklets that can fit into one of those jumbo (whatever they are called ... they hold 4 CDs each and are "fatter" than the Mosaic ones) jewelcases.

I've packed my Holiday box away and can't check the book right now, otherwise I'd quickly type up a ToC so we could compare. Isn't that info available around here somewhere anyway? No time to check.

Edit: Oops. Didn't read about the cardboard sleeves above. Still, a size-reduced booklet could easily fit in there (think Trésors du Jazz series discussed elsewhere, which has positively fat booklets in each set)

Edited October 2, 2009 by neveronfriday

[king ubu]

The Columbia material wasn't only bootlegged by Definitive (see mikeweil's post above), but also by an Italian outfit I think called Comet (on amazon.com, this is listed as by Universe Italy):

This version was around in shops here, and there was even one (usually good!) music critic that wrote a review of one of these boot versions, obviously not in the know about the legit release that took place a few years earlier... I guess the avaricious guys from Sony Switzerland didn't send him a review copy of their box, but the bootleggers did...)

[Cliff Englewood]

The booklet contains all the notes that were in the original, (I think so anyway),

Can we get a solid confirmation of this?

Yes, this does not seem possible.

The smaller booklet is 68 pages and contains the following;

1. Song Index

2. Ladies Day by Gary Giddens

3. Literary Lady by Farah Jasmine Griffin

4. Discography

5. Production Credits

Did the first big one have a track by track analysis as well?

[mikeweil]

I decided I will wait for your comments on the sound of the new Columbia box before I go for it.

While we're at it: Verve/Universal in Germany announces a box set of Lady Day's Commodore and Decca recordings for November 10, at around € 50.00 ... the title says "masters" and I found out it will be three discs - no alternates, I guess. Since I have the Commodore single CD and the Decca double, I think I can skip that one:

Edited October 2, 2009 by mikeweil

[jeffcrom]

The booklet contains all the notes that were in the original, (I think so anyway),

Can we get a solid confirmation of this?

Yes, this does not seem possible.

The smaller booklet is 68 pages and contains the following;

1. Song Index

2. Ladies Day by Gary Giddens

3. Literary Lady by Farah Jasmine Griffin

4. Discography

5. Production Credits

Did the first big one have a track by track analysis as well?

Yes, by Michael Brooks, if I remember correctly.

[brownie]

The CD-sized Billie Holiday Columbia set is on sale here by now!

Lady Day Columbia

A great bargain!

[JSngry]

The booklet contains all the notes that were in the original, (I think so anyway),

Can we get a solid confirmation of this?

Yes, this does not seem possible.

The smaller booklet is 68 pages and contains the following;

1. Song Index

2. Ladies Day by Gary Giddens

3. Literary Lady by Farah Jasmine Griffin

4. Discography

5. Production Credits

Did the first big one have a track by track analysis as well?

Yes, by Michael Brooks, if I remember correctly.

So, basicaly, I can get the same package minus a blow-by-blow for about $200.00 less?

Hmmmm....