Rediscovering the MJQ

[jlhoots]

I've long thought of John Lewis as a sort of be-bop version of Basie.

I agree with that.

Interesting to see the varied opinions.

In its own way there were times that the MJQ swung just like the Basie band.

[Tom Storer]

Coincidentally, I recently bought a two-CD MJQ compilation, one put together by André Francis and Jean Schwarz (the Trésors du Jazz guys) and sold with the newspaper Le Monde as part of an ongoing weekend series focusing on individual artists (now nearing the end of 40 straight weeks). Interestingly, almost half of the compilation is the early 50's MJQ with Kenny Clarke, including some of the earliest, under Milt Jackson's name, with Ray Brown on bass.

The "genteel" aspect of the MJQ has always been what turns off a large part of the jazz public, whether it's John Lewis or Connie Kay who gets accused of lacking fire. I like them a lot, and got to see them once, in 1984, I think. For me the unsung member is Percy Heath. Milt was always swinging, but it's in the bass that the swing of MJQ arrangements resides, IMHO.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Coincidentally, I recently bought a two-CD MJQ compilation, one put together by André Francis and Jean Schwarz (the Trésors du Jazz guys) and sold with the newspaper Le Monde as part of an ongoing weekend series focusing on individual artists (now nearing the end of 40 straight weeks). Interestingly, almost half of the compilation is the early 50's MJQ with Kenny Clarke, including some of the earliest, under Milt Jackson's name, with Ray Brown on bass.

The "genteel" aspect of the MJQ has always been what turns off a large part of the jazz public, whether it's John Lewis or Connie Kay who gets accused of lacking fire. I like them a lot, and got to see them once, in 1984, I think. For me the unsung member is Percy Heath. Milt was always swinging, but it's in the bass that the swing of MJQ arrangements resides, IMHO.

I think you're right about Percy. Connie was the man really behind the sound of the group, though he was a swinging drummer too. (Don't forget Connie was a member of Jesse Stone's Atlantic studio band in the fifties, making all those classic R&B records. Nowt wrong with the way Connie felt rhythm.)

Funny you should mention the genteel side turning people off. I remember reading some article back in the sixties - no memory of the source - might have been Jazz Journal or Melody Maker, but could equally have been one of the pop papers. Anyway, some guy at UK Decca (who handled Atlantic over here) was interviewed and was saying that they could sell 10,000 copies of any MJQ LP in the UK alone! Now that's effin' incredible in the light of today's market!

MG

[Cliff Englewood]

I think what really turns me off about he MJQ is that there always seemed to be a sort of hidden agenda to make "respectable, jazz you could take home to mother" type of music, and then an attitude of "well, this is actually how jazz should be played", it's all just too poilte. I'd have no problem believing the sales of 10,000 copies of any MJQ LP in the UK, as it always struck that they made jazz for people who don't really like jazz, you know, dinner party music. I remember reading an interview somewhere with Kenny Clarke where he said the gist of why he left the group was that it was really more of a business than a band.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I think what really turns me off about he MJQ is that there always seemed to be a sort of hidden agenda to make "respectable, jazz you could take home to mother" type of music, and then an attitude of "well, this is actually how jazz should be played", it's all just too poilte.

That agenda was never hidden. John Lewis seemed to have a great need for respectability and talked about it many times. Duke Ellington also had a great need for respectability.

I'd have no problem believing the sales of 10,000 copies of any MJQ LP in the UK, as it always struck that they made jazz for people who don't really like jazz, you know, dinner party music. I remember reading an interview somewhere with Kenny Clarke where he said the gist of why he left the group was that it was really more of a business than a band.

Jazz is a business. People making money for doing something very difficult for people who want to listen. Showbiz.

MG

[mjzee]

Coincidentally, I recently bought a two-CD MJQ compilation, one put together by André Francis and Jean Schwarz (the Trésors du Jazz guys) and sold with the newspaper Le Monde as part of an ongoing weekend series focusing on individual artists (now nearing the end of 40 straight weeks). Interestingly, almost half of the compilation is the early 50's MJQ with Kenny Clarke, including some of the earliest, under Milt Jackson's name, with Ray Brown on bass.

Could that be because the compilation used tracks in the public domain?

[Tom Storer]

"jazz you could take home to mother" [...] all just too polite [...] jazz for people who don't really like jazz, you know, dinner party music.

This I would strongly disagree with. It might not be assertive or extroverted enough for your tastes, but I don't think it is effete or namby-pamby. Nor can one say that music with crossover appeal has got to be watered down, which is how I interpret what you were saying. There's plenty of softly swinging jazz I put on in the background at dinner parties that is topnotch music.

I remember reading an interview somewhere with Kenny Clarke where he said the gist of why he left the group was that it was really more of a business than a band.

That doesn't mean the music was corrupt.

[Tom Storer]

Coincidentally, I recently bought a two-CD MJQ compilation, one put together by André Francis and Jean Schwarz (the Trésors du Jazz guys) and sold with the newspaper Le Monde as part of an ongoing weekend series focusing on individual artists (now nearing the end of 40 straight weeks). Interestingly, almost half of the compilation is the early 50's MJQ with Kenny Clarke, including some of the earliest, under Milt Jackson's name, with Ray Brown on bass.

Could that be because the compilation used tracks in the public domain?

It's true the compilation is public-domain material, but they were prolific enough in the 50's to fill up a 2-CD compilation with the Heath/Kay version of the band alone. I think this shows that the compilers wanted to favor the Clarke version since it is worth being better known.

[Dan Gould]

I remember reading an interview somewhere with Kenny Clarke where he said the gist of why he left the group was that it was really more of a business than a band.

This hardly makes sense give when Clarke left the band - he was replaced in 1955 after only a few years and a handful of ten inch records. How did it become a "business" years before the group really hit its stride as one of the most popular bands of its era?

My understanding was always that Clarke understood what, musically, Lewis wanted the band to be, didn't dig it and left.

[AllenLowe]

I agree, and I don't think that Clarke could ever have sublimated his style to fit in like Connie Kay fit in -

[Larry Kart]

Some 45 years ago, while under the influence of a controlled substance, I concluded that John Lewis' piano style (an MJQ recording was playing at the party) was mincingly effeminate (not that there's anything wrong with that, etc.). It look me a long time before I could put that "insight" aside.

[AllenLowe]

well, at least someone thinks like me (I think...) - even if it takes, er, ummm, medication to induce agreement -

not to mention that 9 out of 10 lobotomy patients do not like John Lewis (based on a quick survey at the home) -

Edited September 29, 2009 by AllenLowe

[jazzbo]

Does the one out of ten who does like Lewis also like Glenn Gould?

[AllenLowe]

actually, I think Ferrante and Teicher were the most popular amongst the droolers -

[Cliff Englewood]

I think that what became the Modern Jazz Quartet was the Milt Jackson Quartet first.

If I remember the interview correctly, Clarke said one of the main reasons he left the band was when Lewis told him that the manager that (I think)Lewis appointed, Monte Kay, would be getting an equal share of what they were making, ie 20%. Clarke felt no manager deserves 20% of a band's income but Lewis told him that the deal had been done. He also said that after their first tour the music changed completely, to where they were playing eighteenth-century drawing-room jazz, as Clarke put it, almost exclusively. He said Lewis told him this was the best way to make money but Clarke told him although he wanted to make money he was afraid he wouldn't be able to play his own style after playing the MJQ way for 4 or 5 years. Also he said Lewis told him that even though Clarke and Bags were writers Lewis would be doing pretty much all of the writing as he was their musical director.

I just feel that what the MJQ became was almost like one of those pre-fabricated pop groups from a TV talent show.

I like some of the very early stuff that I've heard but I guess I just don't dig them after that.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Cliff Englewood