Best big-band recording as a recording

[Larry Kart]

Today I picked up (for 50 cents!) a more than decent copy of the 1958 Sauter-Finegan LP "Memories of Goodman and Miller" (it may have been their last), cleaned it up, put it on, and was just astonished. This may well be the most vivid, well-balanced recording of a big band I've ever heard. The music (and the music, if you like S-F, is quite something too) just thunders out of the speakers. And not only is the dynamic range incredibly broad (sounds like there might have little or no equalization -- Don Lamond on drums, playing his ass off, sounds as "present" as Blakey or Philly Joe do for RVG), but also everything is in focus, from piccolo to tuba -- no sense of artificiality. Webster Hall, Ray Hall the engineer.

[ghost of miles]

Was this RCA Victor? An older jazz DJ friend of mine told me that the Sauter-Finegan LPs on that label tended to sound really great.

[Larry Kart]

Yes, RCA-Victor.

[AllenLowe]

Webster Hall was the preferred locale for jazz in NYC, and there are many many sessions made there - and I could be wrong, but didn't Ray Hall do stuff for Riverside?

[porcy62]

If memory serves me well, Getz-Sauter's Focus was excellent.

the sound engineer was Ray Hall

Edited September 21, 2009 by porcy62

[Teasing the Korean]

I used to have like 10 Sauter-Finegan albums, decided I didn't need that many, and unloaded two or three. This is one of the ones I unloaded.

[Chuck Nessa]

Webster Hall was the preferred locale for jazz in NYC, and there are many many sessions made there - and I could be wrong, but didn't Ray Hall do stuff for Riverside?

You must be thinking of Ray Fowler.

[Larry Kart]

As for the music, I've only listened to the side of somewhat updated/rearranged for the S-F instrumentation Finegan charts for the Miller band, but at least two of them are really nutty -- recastings of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata and the Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto -- while another that sounds like it would have to be weird/queasy, "Song of the Volga Boatman," turns out to be just gorgeous, on a Gil Evans level. But then Evans arranged classical pieces for Claude Thornhill.

[Lazaro Vega]

There's a Lionel Hampton recording I have at work on Audio Fidelity with Donald Byrd featured on a roaring version of "Air Mail Special" that sounded good to my ears.

LV

[Bill Nelson]

Today I picked up (for 50 cents!) a more than decent copy of the 1958 Sauter-Finegan LP "Memories of Goodman and Miller" (it may have been their last), cleaned it up, put it on, and was just astonished. This may well be the most vivid, well-balanced recording of a big band I've ever heard. The music (and the music, if you like S-F, is quite something too) just thunders out of the speakers. And not only is the dynamic range incredibly broad (sounds like there might have little or no equalization -- Don Lamond on drums, playing his ass off, sounds as "present" as Blakey or Philly Joe do for RVG), but also everything is in focus, from piccolo to tuba -- no sense of artificiality. Webster Hall, Ray Hall the engineer.

When hipsters drop in for perusing and listening, I hope they don't spot my copy of this -- for fear of the moldy-fig appellation. It was Sauter-Finegan's 10th and last LP for RCA -- and the only one to get the glorious 'Living Stereo' treatment. This is ironic because the album is actually a throwback to the dance band era which was anathema to Sauter and Finegan when they merged arranging forces in 1952. Six years later, they rode out to the sunset with Bill Finegan warming-up his earlier charts for Glenn Miller (he obviously spent time on these) and Ed Sauter dusting-off swing charts he'd done for Goodman. Each arranger got one side of this LP and, let's just say that Sauter (who'd already taken a radio bandleader position in Germany) may have done little more than 'mail it in'. The Bill Finegan side is definately more imaginative and ear-opening.

As for the recording team of Sauter-Finegan, in '59 they were enticed by United Artists to record a one-off for their 'Ultra Audio' (in Wall-to-Wall Stereo) series. And that was it. No ruinous feud, a la Martin & Lewis. The economics of running a big band and shifting demographics of the era spelled the end of this creative team.

[Teasing the Korean]

As for the recording team of Sauter-Finegan, in '59 they were enticed by United Artists to record a one-off for their 'Ultra Audio' (in Wall-to-Wall Stereo) series. And that was it. No ruinous feud, a la Martin & Lewis. The economics of running a big band and shifting demographics of the era spelled the end of this creative team.

Actually, they did two albums for UA - I have both. The better one is called "Return of Doodletown Fifers," which has updated arrangements of their more famous RCA stuff.

I forget the name of the other; IIRC, the first track on each side is blatantly more commercial/easy listening, but the remainder of both sides are pretty solid.

[Bill Nelson]

As for the recording team of Sauter-Finegan, in '59 they were enticed by United Artists to record a one-off for their 'Ultra Audio' (in Wall-to-Wall Stereo) series. And that was it. No ruinous feud, a la Martin & Lewis. The economics of running a big band and shifting demographics of the era spelled the end of this creative team.

Actually, they did two albums for UA - I have both. The better one is called "Return of Doodletown Fifers," which has updated arrangements of their more famous RCA stuff.

I forget the name of the other; IIRC, the first track on each side is blatantly more commercial/easy listening, but the remainder of both sides are pretty solid.

Yes, you're right. The two Ultra Audio LPs are: (The WWS stands for 'Wall-Wall-Sound', too cool.)

WWS-8511 'Return of the Doodletown Fifers' (1961)

WWS-8516 'Pops' (1962) They do 'Bilbao Song' on this.

Gil Evans did 'Bilbao' on 'Out of the Cool', rec. late-1960 and released in 1961.

Any similar arranging touches on this Kurt Weill classic?

[Teasing the Korean]

They do 'Bilbao Song' on this.

Gil Evans did 'Bilbao' on 'Out of the Cool', rec. late-1960 and released in 1961.

Any similar arranging touches on this Kurt Weill classic?

Just listened to both versions.

The "Out of the Cool" version is definitely more abstract; I don't think the melody kicks in - overtly, at least - until 2/3 of the way into the arrangement.

The Sauter-Finegan version is 2 parts Les Baxter exotica, 1 part "Sketches of Spain" - which is a great recipe where I'm calling from.

Both versions are really nice in different ways.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Teasing the Korean

[Bill Nelson]

A week has gone by and most of the available United Artists Ultra Audio LPs have quietly been snapped-up by erstwhile Organissimo crate-diggers (you know who you are).

Enough of this shilling for these dramatic 'Wall-to-Wall Stereo' gatefolds -- they're actually not that impressive. The vinyl itself isn't even close to an RCA Living Stereo or a London 'blueback'. The Ultra Audio vinyl is quiet and might be a better grade than the usual UA grist but comes nowhere near the inner jacket blurb touting "the finest recordings that can be made."

And as for the artists, whew... let me count the ways: there's a few by Ferrante & Teicher's 'Dynamic Golden Pianos', Terry Snyder's Percussion, Nick Perito's Blazing Latin Brass, and several more by Don Costa.

I've got the one-shots by Al Caiola ('Guitars, Woodwinds, and Bongos') and, by far, the most bizarre in the Ultra Audio series, 'The Cats Go Wild'.

Check out this link for your must-haves: http://www.bsnpubs.com/ua/uaultraaudio.html

[Chas]

It appears that the Bill Potts is the only title in UA's Ultra Audio Series not recorded with that series in mind . I assume that this means that it's free from gimmicky stereo effects and thus sounds like the original stereo issue . Since the Ultra Audio Series LPs have gatefold covers , I also assume this mean the Potts has the wonderful booklet that was included with the original release .

Speaking of that booklet , somebody here who doesn't own this music or owns only the CD will be interested to know that there's an original mono copy of the Potts up for grabs right now at Dusty Groove and it's only $5.00 . Worth it for the booklet alone trust me !

[Bill Nelson]

Bill Potts' 'Jazz Soul of Porgy and Bess' , UAS-5032 or UAL-4032, was released in 1959 -- one year prior to the premiere of the Ultra Audio, 'Wall-to-Wall Stereo series.

Potts' album is numbered to sequence within UA's more legitimate jazz releases.

'Jazz Soul' is far more serious than any of the ersatz, easy listening albums depicted in the discography:

http://www.bsnpubs.com/ua/uaultraaudio.html

[Chas]

Bill Potts' 'Jazz Soul of Porgy and Bess' , UAS-5032 or UAL-4032, was released in 1959 -- one year prior to the premiere of the Ultra Audio, 'Wall-to-Wall Stereo series.

Yes , which is why I doubted that WWS-8517 is sonically distinguishable from UAS-5032 .

'Jazz Soul' is far more serious than any of the ersatz, easy listening albums depicted in the discography

No need to tell me brother .

[Teasing the Korean]

I have not heard the two UA Sauter-Finegan albums in stereo, so I can't comment on the separation or stereo gimmickry. I have both in mono and think they sound great, sonically better than the RCA titles I've heard.

[BruceH]

Today I picked up (for 50 cents!) a more than decent copy of the 1958 Sauter-Finegan LP "Memories of Goodman and Miller" (it may have been their last), cleaned it up, put it on, and was just astonished. This may well be the most vivid, well-balanced recording of a big band I've ever heard. The music (and the music, if you like S-F, is quite something too) just thunders out of the speakers. And not only is the dynamic range incredibly broad (sounds like there might have little or no equalization -- Don Lamond on drums, playing his ass off, sounds as "present" as Blakey or Philly Joe do for RVG), but also everything is in focus, from piccolo to tuba -- no sense of artificiality. Webster Hall, Ray Hall the engineer.

When hipsters drop in for perusing and listening, I hope they don't spot my copy of this -- for fear of the moldy-fig appellation. It was Sauter-Finegan's 10th and last LP for RCA -- and the only one to get the glorious 'Living Stereo' treatment. This is ironic because the album is actually a throwback to the dance band era which was anathema to Sauter and Finegan when they merged arranging forces in 1952. Six years later, they rode out to the sunset with Bill Finegan warming-up his earlier charts for Glenn Miller (he obviously spent time on these) and Ed Sauter dusting-off swing charts he'd done for Goodman. Each arranger got one side of this LP and, let's just say that Sauter (who'd already taken a radio bandleader position in Germany) may have done little more than 'mail it in'. The Bill Finegan side is definately more imaginative and ear-opening.

Sorry to learn that; I always liked Sauter.

[Bill Nelson]

Heck, I don't want to put-off prospective listeners of Sauter-Finegan's enjoyable LP. It was my endeavor to compare Sauter's 'Goodman' side with Finegan's 'Miller'. During 1958, Eddie Sauter was in Germany and had his hands full with the Baden-Baden Radio Orchestra. Bill Finegan was Stateside and may have had more time to rework his charts (maybe he conducted both sides of this final LP for RCA).

The Sauter side swings and Walt Levinsky plays a hot stick. Finegan's arranging is much more inspired and, in places, jaw-dropping. Both sides provide even more detail and listening pleasure if your copy is in Living Stereo.

[Teasing the Korean]

For what it's worth, I find this easily the most dispensable LP in their catalog.

[Chas]

It appears that the Bill Potts is the only title in UA's Ultra Audio Series not recorded with that series in mind . I assume that this means that it's free from gimmicky stereo effects and thus sounds like the original stereo issue . Since the Ultra Audio Series LPs have gatefold covers , I also assume this mean the Potts has the wonderful booklet that was included with the original release .

Speaking of that booklet , somebody here who doesn't own this music or owns only the CD will be interested to know that there's an original mono copy of the Potts up for grabs right now at Dusty Groove and it's only $5.00 . Worth it for the booklet alone trust me !

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet

[Teasing the Korean]

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet

Who knew that Pearls Before Swine made a big band record?

[Bill Nelson]

On Oct. 1, Chas prompted us to the ultra-affordable original UA copy of Bill Potts' 'Porgy' at Dusty Groove.

Ten days later, Dusty STILL has the very same Potts' 'Porgy' LP for sale at $4.99 --

and so, perhaps in ithe eyes of Chas, WE are the swine -- and cheap ones at that!

"You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment."