Last Shop Standing (Whatever happened to record shops?)

[Steve Gray]

Walking down Charing Cross Road yesterday and the site of the old Dobells I'm pretty sure now that I never ever saw the place at its original site and that it had already moved (Tower St?) by the time that I started checking these places out.

Could be. Collets was originally in New Oxford Street down towards the British Museum, then it moved to Charing Cross Road on the same side as Foyles, between Foyles and Tottenham Court Road station.

Used to visit Collets a lot when it was in NOS, hardly ever when it was in CCR.

Where Dobells was is now a horrible red brick building with a walkway underneath it. That side of the road, when Dobells was there, used to look exactly the same as the other side still does.

Having said that, CCR is nothing like it used to be, hardly any of the book shops are there now either.

[sidewinder]

Yes, know exactly where you mean. Red brick emporium of Chinese and Itialian-ish tourist eateries and small stores. That's the one !

And your comment would also tie up with my recollections of CCR of that period. It must indeed have been Collets, after the move.

Not sure if this has been posted but there's an absolute cornucopia on the late Ray Smith and 'Ray's Jazz' on here:-

http://cargocollecti...Ray-s-Jazz-Shop

Love that picture of the Ray's store front with the copy of Pete laRoca's 'Basra' on display !

Edited February 2, 2013 by sidewinder

[Big Beat Steve]

Not sure if this has been posted but there's an absolute cornucopia on the late Ray Smith and 'Ray's Jazz' on here:-

http://cargocollecti...Ray-s-Jazz-Shop

Thanks for that link!

That brings back memories even to me who only caught the later period (1992 to 2000) at Shaftesbury Avenue.

Nice to be able to put names to faces of those whom I encountered regularly at the counter when making my purchases there.

Apart from Ray (whom I did indeed picture to be the boss), I remember dealing with Glyn Callingham and Mike Doyle (who at one occasion went out of his way to give me the 10% discount on the purchases I had made, though I made my purchases in 2 instalments (visits) durnig the day) most often during my visits. If In had known I'd regularly bump into Glyn Callingham there I'd probably have brought my California Cool cover art book for him to sign.

That stock of US 78rpm orignals on Savoy, Dee Gee etc. that according to that blog came from Chris Barber as early as 1974 must have lasted an awfully long time. I remember buying several mint Savoys, Dee Gees and Bops as late as 1998 or 1999 there in the basement Blues & Roots store where a separate "Special Offer" bin had set up for them. Wish I had picked more now, but i limited myself to those where I was quite sure they had not been reissued on thoese Savoy twofers. Don't remember seeing them there during my preceding visits though.

The Blues and Roots section downstairs sometimes held rather odd items (judging by the standard so the jazz fraternity up there). In the late 90s I once did a London shopping spree with a girlfriend who of course was pressed into coming along when I checked out Ray's. There she picked an LP compilation of late 50s/early 60s black rock'n'roll (one of those outright bootleg LP series that in the 90s were regularly turned out by London DJs of the Rockin' scene and normally were sold only at record stalls during concerts, festivals etc.). Of course she wanted to get an overall impression of what this particular volume was about so asked to listen in. I think Ray and his staff lasted for about one half each of two songs before Ray pulled it off with disgusted looks on his face (but he did make a sale )...

Edited February 2, 2013 by Big Beat Steve

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I think I only went into Ray's once. Found it a bit pricey for me and a long walk up Shaftesbury Ave for nowt. Reckless Records and Soul Jazz Records in Soho were a lot more convenient and had better stuff. Was Ray's an offshoot of Collett's?

MG

[Head Man]

I think I only went into Ray's once. Found it a bit pricey for me and a long walk up Shaftesbury Ave for nowt. Reckless Records and Soul Jazz Records in Soho were a lot more convenient and had better stuff. Was Ray's an offshoot of Collett's?

MG

Yes, Ray used to sell jazz from a tiny basement in Collets when it was in New Oxford Street. The ground floor was the Folk/Blues department (more a large room, actually) and there was always a running battle between the two departments about who was playing "their" music too loudly. When Collets closed the New Oxford Street shop in the early 1970s, they opened up a new book shop in Charing X Road which had the folk department in the basement. The jazz department under Ray Smith moved to the shop in Shaftesbury Avenue with blues being sold from the basement.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Head Man

[sidewinder]

and there was always a running battle between the two departments about who was playing "their" music too loudly.

I seem to remember a bit of that in the 'newer' shop over in Shaftesbury Avenue. Bop sides being drowned out by delta blues at full wack.

Edited February 2, 2013 by sidewinder

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Mentioning Soul Jazz Records in Broadwick Street (THEY'RE still there) put me in mind of two other selfconsciously hip shops in Soho, both of which had a tiny stock of extreme hipness.

The first was a tiny stand on the corner of Lisle St and Wardour St. It was opened in the mid 60s and only sold US import 45s. You couldn't browse; all the records were behind the counter and the customers were in the street, shouting stuff like, 'got the new Bobby Bland?' or whatever. The stuff they sold had only been out in the US about a week. To buy anything there, you had to KNOW what to ask for.

The other was on the corner of Dean St and Old Compton St. That was around in the late 60s/early 70s. Another shop that exclusively dealt in US imports and not too many of them. I remember getting Rusty Bryant's 'Soul liberation' and Charles Earland's 'Black drops' there only a very short time after they'd come out in the US.

I do like the idea of having a limited stock of highly hip albums. So long as the people running the show can keep up with what's hip, they can keep a business going, like Soul Jazz have; they don't sell much in the way of soul jazz any more - avant garde seems more their meat now. Strange, because most of their other stuff is dancehall-oriented.

MG

[Pim]

In Holland, most big record stores go into bankruptcy. We had only one jazz record store in Amsterdam, called the Blue Note. That shop went down a few years ago. Then there are big stores who have a very limited stock of jazz records. There is for me only one really nice store left: Concerto in Amsterdam.

[ejp626]

That sounds like it might be interesting, if I knew what you were talking about. Would you mind explaining?

MG

Same here. Please elaborate, ejp626.

Sorry, I had checked out of this thread. This may be more specific to bookstores than record stores, and in both cases, it is US-specific, though other countries might have followed suit. A short thread on the topic here, and I'll extract just a bit below.

As you may know, the American publishing industry is in dire straits. In fact, the industry has been dying a protracted death since the eighties. The reasons for this are many and complicated, but one contributing factor was a change in the Reagan tax code. At that point, retail inventory became taxable. Stores responded by dumping stock frequently to reduce quarterly statements.

Bookstores adopted a policy of six-week returns. That is, a new title would be shipped to bookstores and held no longer than six weeks before being shipped back to the publisher at the publisher's cost. Often the cover is ripped off rendering the book unsellable.

Prior to the change, bookstores (and presumably record stores) could hold into low-selling inventory for longer periods of time and not worry as much about best sellers and churning through inventory.

[Big Beat Steve]

Thanks for the info!

Seems to be another piece of legislation that was really badly executed.

The practice of tearing off front covers for those printed items returned as remainders was practiced here at the newsagents since the 60s when they returned unsold magazines (monthly, weekly etc.) after their "display until" date had passed but I think it is no longer done that way.

Given the short "shelf display life" of books imposed by this taxation of inventories, it is amazing there still are so many niche books published (and selling, aparently) in the US anyway. Internet-based distribution and sales channels seem to be a good thing in this case after all ...

Edited February 5, 2013 by Big Beat Steve

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I agree with Steve, but I couldn't be sure it was poorly executed legislation. It may have been intentional in order to raise more tax without any increase in the general bottom line of taxation. What the Tories over here call a stealth tax. Even though its obvious effect would have been to reduce inventories, if they hadn't been taxed before, there would have been an increase in taxation for the government because no one has zero inventory.

MG

[ejp626]

I agree with Steve, but I couldn't be sure it was poorly executed legislation. It may have been intentional in order to raise more tax without any increase in the general bottom line of taxation. What the Tories over here call a stealth tax. Even though its obvious effect would have been to reduce inventories, if they hadn't been taxed before, there would have been an increase in taxation for the government because no one has zero inventory.

MG

I imagine it was something like that. Basically up to that point, bookstores could hold onto all this stock but either claim it as a deadweight loss or simply keep it off the books (not sure which), but this change in the tax code assumed that all of it would be sold (obviously or why have it) and then forwarded the profits to present day (without even discounting for the portion of future sales that are over a year in the future). Definitely thought up by someone who knows economic theory but not the realities of retail sales. The inevitable consequence was smaller inventories and a move closer to just-in-time inventory control. Maybe not terrible from a societal perspective, but not at all good for people who like fringe-ier items in the long tail. Frankly, it is somewhat amazing that Amazon is willing to keep some of this stock around to serve the long tail when it doesn't help them from an accounting perspective.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I agree with Steve, but I couldn't be sure it was poorly executed legislation. It may have been intentional in order to raise more tax without any increase in the general bottom line of taxation. What the Tories over here call a stealth tax. Even though its obvious effect would have been to reduce inventories, if they hadn't been taxed before, there would have been an increase in taxation for the government because no one has zero inventory.

MG

I imagine it was something like that. Basically up to that point, bookstores could hold onto all this stock but either claim it as a deadweight loss or simply keep it off the books (not sure which), but this change in the tax code assumed that all of it would be sold (obviously or why have it) and then forwarded the profits to present day (without even discounting for the portion of future sales that are over a year in the future). Definitely thought up by someone who knows economic theory but not the realities of retail sales. The inevitable consequence was smaller inventories and a move closer to just-in-time inventory control. Maybe not terrible from a societal perspective, but not at all good for people who like fringe-ier items in the long tail. Frankly, it is somewhat amazing that Amazon is willing to keep some of this stock around to serve the long tail when it doesn't help them from an accounting perspective.

Well, IS it the case that Amazon in the US is keeping this inventory? Over here, I've noticed a lot of the things I buy from Amazon itself (not sellers) are actually supplied by a European branch of Amazon, perhaps because our accounting is done like that in the US (I don't know) or maybe for some other reason. But the fact that you buy smething from Amazon doesn't necessarily mean you're getting it from Amazon. If you're dealing on the web, you can put physical stock where you want; where it serves your tax strategy best. Indeed, Amazon may not pay taxes in America at all.

MG

[ejp626]

I agree with Steve, but I couldn't be sure it was poorly executed legislation. It may have been intentional in order to raise more tax without any increase in the general bottom line of taxation. What the Tories over here call a stealth tax. Even though its obvious effect would have been to reduce inventories, if they hadn't been taxed before, there would have been an increase in taxation for the government because no one has zero inventory.

MG

I imagine it was something like that. Basically up to that point, bookstores could hold onto all this stock but either claim it as a deadweight loss or simply keep it off the books (not sure which), but this change in the tax code assumed that all of it would be sold (obviously or why have it) and then forwarded the profits to present day (without even discounting for the portion of future sales that are over a year in the future). Definitely thought up by someone who knows economic theory but not the realities of retail sales. The inevitable consequence was smaller inventories and a move closer to just-in-time inventory control. Maybe not terrible from a societal perspective, but not at all good for people who like fringe-ier items in the long tail. Frankly, it is somewhat amazing that Amazon is willing to keep some of this stock around to serve the long tail when it doesn't help them from an accounting perspective.

Well, IS it the case that Amazon in the US is keeping this inventory? Over here, I've noticed a lot of the things I buy from Amazon itself (not sellers) are actually supplied by a European branch of Amazon, perhaps because our accounting is done like that in the US (I don't know) or maybe for some other reason. But the fact that you buy smething from Amazon doesn't necessarily mean you're getting it from Amazon. If you're dealing on the web, you can put physical stock where you want; where it serves your tax strategy best. Indeed, Amazon may not pay taxes in America at all.

MG

Mostly it does come from US-based warehouses. They have located the warehouses in states with lower local taxes (and 0% state sales tax if they can manage that), but that shouldn't matter as far as their federal taxes. The cost of international shipping would pretty quickly eat up any tax benefits from offshoring their inventory, esp. as they are moving more and more to 2-day delivery for Amazon Prime. Definitely can't guarantee that from the U.S. Virgin Islands or wherever. Indeed, Amazon has finally thrown in the towel and is urging for "uniform" statewide sales tax, in part so that they can open up smaller warehouses in more states and lower their delivery times further and increase reliability. It is going to be another blow to brick and mortars once they have this ironed out (and are no longer competing just on sales tax avoidance).

But Amazon is just about the only retailer that can have such a huge inventory and use "creative" accounting to offset the inventory tax.

[Jazzjet]

I think I only went into Ray's once. Found it a bit pricey for me and a long walk up Shaftesbury Ave for nowt. Reckless Records and Soul Jazz Records in Soho were a lot more convenient and had better stuff. Was Ray's an offshoot of Collett's?

MG

Yes, Ray used to sell jazz from a tiny basement in Collets when it was in New Oxford Street. The ground floor was the Folk/Blues department (more a large room, actually) and there was always a running battle between the two departments about who was playing "their" music too loudly. When Collets closed the New Oxford Street shop in the early 1970s, they opened up a new book shop in Charing X Road which had the folk department in the basement. The jazz department under Ray Smith moved to the shop in Shaftesbury Avenue with blues being sold from the basement.

I remember a rather imposing woman with long blonde ( or gray ) hair who ran the Folk department in Collets. I think her name was Jill Cook.

Yes, know exactly where you mean. Red brick emporium of Chinese and Itialian-ish tourist eateries and small stores. That's the one !

And your comment would also tie up with my recollections of CCR of that period. It must indeed have been Collets, after the move.

Not sure if this has been posted but there's an absolute cornucopia on the late Ray Smith and 'Ray's Jazz' on here:-

http://cargocollecti...Ray-s-Jazz-Shop

Love that picture of the Ray's store front with the copy of Pete laRoca's 'Basra' on display !

Wonderful link. Thanks very much. The short guy with ginger beard and glasses pictured with Ray at the foot of the page could often be found in London jazz shops flicking through the LPs at a supersonic rate.

[sidewinder]

The short guy with ginger beard and glasses pictured with Ray at the foot of the page could often be found in London jazz shops flicking through the LPs at a supersonic rate.

Spot on ! I thought he looked familiar - I'm sure I've come across him at Mole and yes, he was manic !

[Jazzjet]

The short guy with ginger beard and glasses pictured with Ray at the foot of the page could often be found in London jazz shops flicking through the LPs at a supersonic rate.

Spot on ! I thought he looked familiar - I'm sure I've come across him at Mole and yes, he was manic !

I saw him at Tower once and his technique didn't quite translate to CDs! He looked very grumpy.

[JohnS]

The short guy with ginger beard and glasses pictured with Ray at the foot of the page could often be found in London jazz shops flicking through the LPs at a supersonic rate.

Spot on ! I thought he looked familiar - I'm sure I've come across him at Mole and yes, he was manic !

I saw him at Tower once and his technique didn't quite translate to CDs! He looked very grumpy.

That's Jackie Docherty. Well known London collector. Curiously he taped all his lps, retained the jackets and sold the vinyl back to Ray. Ray had a special bin marked Jackie's Bag for the coverless albums. I have a few. Jackie worked in Tower for a while when they first opened but I don't think he lasted too long, I doubt his customer service skills were that great. I'm told he was a North Sea JF regular.

Edited February 8, 2013 by JohnS

[BillF]

Written by one of the people who run Proper Music (yes, yes, I know...) who worked his way from a market stall and has seen the changing fortunes of the record market.

The first bit describes his career in record shops and managing bands. But the heart is just a 2008 tour round the independent shops he has dealt with all his life. A fun read for his affectionate defence of the little shops, especially when it's a shop you've used...but also enlightening about why the record shops have closed so quickly (and E-bay, Amazon and downloading are only part of the story...he's scathing about the treatment of independents by the record companies).

He's not a natural writer - it can be a bit stilted and the 'funny stories' are often not that funny. But if you spent as much time in UK record shops as I did up to a few years back, you'll enjoy this.

Published by Proper so not hard to find!

***************

Just watched the Last Shop Standing DVD, on a complimentary copy from Graham Jones of Proper Music lent to me by an ex-jazz guitarist neighbour who has known Graham since his youth. The film was very good on the decline of record shops, less convincing in its final optimistic section. Great to see Spillers in Cardiff, made famous on this board through MG's posts and King Bee Records of Manchester, which I only visited after Richard Davenport wrote about it here. Virtually no mention of jazz, of course, with the exception of the Brummie record store owner who seemed fascinated by Slim Gaillard imitating a chicken on record.

[sidewinder]

Written by one of the people who run Proper Music (yes, yes, I know...) who worked his way from a market stall and has seen the changing fortunes of the record market.

The first bit describes his career in record shops and managing bands. But the heart is just a 2008 tour round the independent shops he has dealt with all his life. A fun read for his affectionate defence of the little shops, especially when it's a shop you've used...but also enlightening about why the record shops have closed so quickly (and E-bay, Amazon and downloading are only part of the story...he's scathing about the treatment of independents by the record companies).

He's not a natural writer - it can be a bit stilted and the 'funny stories' are often not that funny. But if you spent as much time in UK record shops as I did up to a few years back, you'll enjoy this.

Published by Proper so not hard to find!

***************

Just watched the Last Shop Standing DVD, on a complimentary copy from Graham Jones of Proper Music lent to me by an ex-jazz guitarist neighbour who has known Graham since his youth. The film was very good on the decline of record shops, less convincing in its final optimistic section. Great to see Spillers in Cardiff, made famous on this board through MG's posts and King Bee Records of Manchester, which I only visited after Richard Davenport wrote about it here. Virtually no mention of jazz, of course, with the exception of the Brummie record store owner who seemed fascinated by Slim Gaillard imitating a chicken on record.

Is Acorn Records of Yeovil featured on the film Bill? Many a good record bought there 'back in the day', although their speciality was more on the prog rock side of things. They've always kept a nice jazz selection going too - courtesy of 'Proper'.

Edited February 15, 2013 by sidewinder

[BillF]

Written by one of the people who run Proper Music (yes, yes, I know...) who worked his way from a market stall and has seen the changing fortunes of the record market.

The first bit describes his career in record shops and managing bands. But the heart is just a 2008 tour round the independent shops he has dealt with all his life. A fun read for his affectionate defence of the little shops, especially when it's a shop you've used...but also enlightening about why the record shops have closed so quickly (and E-bay, Amazon and downloading are only part of the story...he's scathing about the treatment of independents by the record companies).

He's not a natural writer - it can be a bit stilted and the 'funny stories' are often not that funny. But if you spent as much time in UK record shops as I did up to a few years back, you'll enjoy this.

Published by Proper so not hard to find!

***************

Just watched the Last Shop Standing DVD, on a complimentary copy from Graham Jones of Proper Music lent to me by an ex-jazz guitarist neighbour who has known Graham since his youth. The film was very good on the decline of record shops, less convincing in its final optimistic section. Great to see Spillers in Cardiff, made famous on this board through MG's posts and King Bee Records of Manchester, which I only visited after Richard Davenport wrote about it here. Virtually no mention of jazz, of course, with the exception of the Brummie record store owner who seemed fascinated by Slim Gaillard imitating a chicken on record.

Is Acorn Records of Yeovil featured on the film Bill? Many a good record bought there 'back in the day', although their speciality was more on the prog rock side of things. They've always kept a nice jazz selection going too - courtesy of 'Proper'.

Yes, there was coverage of Yeovil. I know personally that many of the stores mentioned had jazz sections, but the word "jazz" was uttered only once in the 50 minute film. As the last part was about how to keep the physical product alive, the evidence of this board alone suggests jazz should have been looked into.

[sidewinder]

Yes, there was coverage of Yeovil. I know personally that many of the stores mentioned had jazz sections, but the word "jazz" was uttered only once in the 50 minute film. As the last part was about how to keep the physical product alive, the evidence of this board alone suggests jazz should have been looked into.

Great - I'll have to check the film out.

[A Lark Ascending]

HMV is sold to Hilco in rescue deal

Restructuring specialist Hilco has clinched a deal to rescue music and DVD retailer HMV.

Hilco, which already owns HMV Canada, said it had acquired 132 HMV shops and all nine branches of the Fopp chain in a deal that could save 2,500 jobs.

Another Hilco executive, Ian Topping, said HMV would be reversing its decision to sell tablets and other devices in its stores, making way for "an enhanced music and visual range".

I suspect the horse has already bolted but there's a little hope for those who like to buy from shops here.

[sidewinder]

I popped into the HMV in Bath a few weeks ago. A sorry experience so not expecting any miracles there. You would be hard pushed to find anything beyond Miles Davis KOB and Kenny G in there these days.

[kutuzkina]

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