Bad news from Mosaic

[king ubu]

oh, and I asked about the Mulligan Select - that one as well should be back by the end of the year!

[JETman]

Gee, we all do love Mosaic, don't we?

I know I do ---- to the tune of over 100 of their items over 16+ years.

[Big Al]

Past sets are no longer legally licensed from the rights holders and therefore cannot be legally sold as FLAC downloads.

Correct. I get the impression that posters here forget that.

Not so much forgot as never knew/realized. In any event, you guys are right as evidenced by the e-mail I got from Mosaic:

"Thank you for your thoughts but we are unable to obtain download rights from the licensors for the music."

[J.A.W.]

Past sets are no longer legally licensed from the rights holders and therefore cannot be legally sold as FLAC downloads.

Correct. I get the impression that posters here forget that.

Not so much forgot as never knew/realized. In any event, you guys are right as evidenced by the e-mail I got from Mosaic:

"Thank you for your thoughts but we are unable to obtain download rights from the licensors for the music."

So much for downloads.

What I meant earlier is that people don't seem to realize that Mosaic doesn't own the rights of anything they release (with the exception of the Charlie Parker set), they're just licensees.

Edited September 10, 2009 by J.A.W.

[Swinging Swede]

Wow, I just read about this. I was intending to get most of those sets eventually. I'm devastated.

[Fred]

I guess they were flooded with orders and mails and they being such a small company - two or three people? or just Cindy being at the office regularly? It's always she who answers my mail concerning orders, and she's always been perfectly polite and on several occasions extremely kind to me.

You're right, Mosaic's not to blame and Cindy is doing a really great job.

Yes, I apologize: frustration spoke to my place. I had a very kind answer from Cindy (who in many years helped me many times), and she explained what happened, a flood of orders before they were able to put off the sets from the web site. Mosaic is a graet company.

[tranemonk]

One of the interesting things about this news/thread is that it says a little bit about our buying habits. I, for one, have always taken the following attitude with the Mosaic sets that If I definitely/probably/leaning towards wanting it, and I happen to have a little extra cash, I just get it. The result of this was that when the bad news hit... I had nearly every set I wanted (- a few Selects which are still in print). The downsides is that there are some sets I was VERY disappointed in ... (most notably the Dinah Washington)....

Overall though.. I've taken the approach if I'm 55% in favor of a set.. I usually get it... I am glad though that when this debacle happened... it didn't really impact me...

[GA Russell]

It was until I found this group in '03 that I learned that fans wait till the last minute to buy a Mosaic. Prior to that, in my solitude, I would buy a set when it first came out (or I first heard of it) or never, and figured that's what most people did.

Edited September 10, 2009 by GA Russell

[sidewinder]

I'm very disappointed. I ordered the Dinah Washington set only minutes after the sad news from Mosaic, and received a regular receipt from them. This evening, I had this email from them:

"We are in receipt of your order for which we thank you very much.

Unfortunately, the Dinah Washington CD set is sold out. It is no longer

available.

We apologize for any inconveniences caused to you. Your order has

now been cancelled. You were not charged for this order."

This is the very first time Mosaic do a similiar bad business: I have about 100 box sets (and several selects and singles). Anyone had a similar misadventure?

Same thing has just happened to me with the Pacific Jazz Trios. The order for the Pearson and Shank/Cooper went through OK though. Damn !

Edited September 10, 2009 by sidewinder

[Niko]

seems like they just updated the list of sold out sets but forgot to add the patton... feels like chaos....

[gmonahan]

seems like they just updated the list of sold out sets but forgot to add the patton... feels like chaos....

No surprise there. I'm sure they're overwhelmed. It's not like it's a very big operation.

I did suggest to Scott a few weeks ago that they consider making booklets from OP sets available for pdf download. He said he'd take it to the "higher ups," though who on earth that might be I can't imagine--just Cuscuna, probably!

All that said, I think fears of their impending demise are premature. Well, I hope so anyway! I want that Ellington 30s set!

greg mo

[Chuck Nessa]

Problem with offering downloads of the books is it just aids the free download sites.

[J.A.W.]

Problem with offering downloads of the books is it just aids the free download sites.

And that's why they're not offering any.

[Dan Gould]

It was until I found this group in '03 that I learned that fans wait till the last minute to buy a Mosaic. Prior to that, in my solitude, I would buy a set when it first came out (or I first heard of it) or never, and figured that's what most people did.

Same here. Or more accurately, I would put whichever new set or sets I was interested in on my Christmas list; Mom loved the convenience of getting just what I wanted.

[RDK]

I suspect that most who avail themselves of "free downloads" wouldn't buy the sets anyway. Still, I don't blame them for not offering pdfs of any in-print sets. For oop stuff, though, that can only be gotten by, er, "trading" I don't see the harm. Part of their sales pitch is that once these sets are gone they are gone for good. One would have to be naive not to think that sets that are sold out and never to be repressed - especially of music of such high cultural importance as this - wouldn't be shared in some way later on. If such important music can't be accessed more broadly, then classic jazz really will die off with us...

[Chuck Nessa]

Hey, I've downloaded stuff and delayed buying it until it was gone. It happens all the time.

[papsrus]

I suspect that most who avail themselves of "free downloads" wouldn't buy the sets anyway. Still, I don't blame them for not offering pdfs of any in-print sets. For oop stuff, though, that can only be gotten by, er, "trading" I don't see the harm. Part of their sales pitch is that once these sets are gone they are gone for good. One would have to be naive not to think that sets that are sold out and never to be repressed - especially of music of such high cultural importance as this - wouldn't be shared in some way later on. If such important music can't be accessed more broadly, then classic jazz really will die off with us...

But if part of the attraction of these sets in the first place is that they are limited editions, I would think that Mosaic would, and should, do everything they can to ensure that they remain so. Otherwise they'll have to change their sales pitch to, kind of limited.

[ejp626]

I suspect that most who avail themselves of "free downloads" wouldn't buy the sets anyway. Still, I don't blame them for not offering pdfs of any in-print sets. For oop stuff, though, that can only be gotten by, er, "trading" I don't see the harm. Part of their sales pitch is that once these sets are gone they are gone for good. One would have to be naive not to think that sets that are sold out and never to be repressed - especially of music of such high cultural importance as this - wouldn't be shared in some way later on. If such important music can't be accessed more broadly, then classic jazz really will die off with us...

But if part of the attraction of these sets in the first place is that they are limited editions, I would think that Mosaic would, and should, do everything they can to ensure that they remain so. Otherwise they'll have to change their sales pitch to, kind of limited.

Well, part of the attraction to some group of fans -- and of more importance to speculators. The limited edition aspect of Mosaic is of no interest to me at all. However, I understand/accept that they would not have been given the rights to the vast majority of their sets if there wasn't some kind of a limit.

[David Ayers]

I want that Ellington 30s set!

greg mo

I guess most folks already have the 2008 Euro-Sony Original Masters Ellington 1932-1939? Those are 'gray-market' in the USA for exactly the same copyright/royalty issues as affects 'Andorran' imports or 'Euro-Mosaics', so some may have scruples. If you can find one though they are dirt-cheap and well worth a few $$$ investment as a bulwark against the non-emergence of the proposed Mosaic 10CD epic.

[king ubu]

Yup, two things: limited or not, I don't bother... I have never even remotely considered selling any of my Mosaics (and I guess a few could be turned into cash cows or some such...)

Second: their releases are just happening at a too fast pace to catch up with all their back catalogue at the same time as buying the new sets! If I could afford it, I'd have bought their whole catalogue years ago and kept up with their new releases, that's completely out of question! But my musical interests are too broad to just limit my buying to Mosaic...

[DukeCity]

I ordered three Selects from CD Universe yesterday. Dexter, Woody Herman and Onzy Matthews.

Got an email today telling me the Dexter is "back ordered" with the caveat that sometimes back ordered items never come in, and the order will be canceled on 10/24/09 if it's not in by then.

Damn! I have some of that Dexter on vinyl, but was looking forward to that Select.

[king ubu]

I want that Ellington 30s set!

greg mo

I guess most folks already have the 2008 Euro-Sony Original Masters Ellington 1932-1939? Those are 'gray-market' in the USA for exactly the same copyright/royalty issues as affects 'Andorran' imports or 'Euro-Mosaics', so some may have scruples. If you can find one though they are dirt-cheap and well worth a few $$$ investment as a bulwark against the non-emergence of the proposed Mosaic 10CD epic.

Did the price for that box come down again? It was pretty impossible to find a while back... but I definitely want the Mosaic as well, in this case! And I guess Ellington being a big name, it might also be a set where they actually could print a 10000 edition and sell it within a few years, no? The Capitol and Reprise sets went pretty fast (or rather: the Capitol was sold out quickly in the centennial year, I think).

[Fred]

I, for one, have always taken the following attitude with the Mosaic sets that If I definitely/probably/leaning towards wanting it, and I happen to have a little extra cash, I just get it. The result of this was that when the bad news hit... I had nearly every set I wanted (- a few Selects which are still in print). The downsides is that there are some sets I was VERY disappointed in ... (most notably the Dinah Washington)....

I do the same! I preorder every set I'm interested in (at least at 60%), and so I did with the Ellingtons, the Basies, Goodman, Shaw, and quite all the recent sets. I wait the "last chanche" opportunity only for boxes I'm not interested in (the Dinah Washington, for example ) only for completeness... This time things went bad.

But I think the way to help Mosaic is to PREORDER sets. I can't wait the promised Ellington '30s, and I still hope in a Victor Goodman big band (you know the awful remasters of "Birth Of Swing" set).

[RDK]

I suspect that most who avail themselves of "free downloads" wouldn't buy the sets anyway. Still, I don't blame them for not offering pdfs of any in-print sets. For oop stuff, though, that can only be gotten by, er, "trading" I don't see the harm. Part of their sales pitch is that once these sets are gone they are gone for good. One would have to be naive not to think that sets that are sold out and never to be repressed - especially of music of such high cultural importance as this - wouldn't be shared in some way later on. If such important music can't be accessed more broadly, then classic jazz really will die off with us...

But if part of the attraction of these sets in the first place is that they are limited editions, I would think that Mosaic would, and should, do everything they can to ensure that they remain so. Otherwise they'll have to change their sales pitch to, kind of limited.

That's definitely part of the attraction. I don't know how many times I've waited until a set went on "Running Low" or "Last Chance" to buy it because after that I knew they wouldn't be easily attainable. If not "limited," I might have waited indefinitely - or until I had the extra cash. I think most of us here are "collectors" as well as just fans of the music, and Mosaic makes a nice collectible package. Those willing to pay for it get a limited package that, besides giving them the music, also has a history of appreciation. But after Mosaic sells out (or times out), what other options are there for someone who just wants to appreciate the music but can't find a set to purchase?

[gmonahan]

I suspect that most who avail themselves of "free downloads" wouldn't buy the sets anyway. Still, I don't blame them for not offering pdfs of any in-print sets. For oop stuff, though, that can only be gotten by, er, "trading" I don't see the harm. Part of their sales pitch is that once these sets are gone they are gone for good. One would have to be naive not to think that sets that are sold out and never to be repressed - especially of music of such high cultural importance as this - wouldn't be shared in some way later on. If such important music can't be accessed more broadly, then classic jazz really will die off with us...

But if part of the attraction of these sets in the first place is that they are limited editions, I would think that Mosaic would, and should, do everything they can to ensure that they remain so. Otherwise they'll have to change their sales pitch to, kind of limited.

That's definitely part of the attraction. I don't know how many times I've waited until a set went on "Running Low" or "Last Chance" to buy it because after that I knew they wouldn't be easily attainable. If not "limited," I might have waited indefinitely - or until I had the extra cash. I think most of us here are "collectors" as well as just fans of the music, and Mosaic makes a nice collectible package. Those willing to pay for it get a limited package that, besides giving them the music, also has a history of appreciation. But after Mosaic sells out (or times out), what other options are there for someone who just wants to appreciate the music but can't find a set to purchase?

This is all very interesting, but all I suggested was making the *booklets* of OP sets, to which Mosaic does own the rights, available for pdf download at a price. Might they then end up getting traded? Probably--but no more so that the music from the discs themselves. After all, Mosaic is perfectly willing to sell leftover booklets right now even if the sets to which they originally were attached are out of print. I just recently bought several, some I just wanted (like the first Commodore book with a very cool big interview with Milt Gabler), and some to go with more recently issued music that was once on an OP Mosaic set, like the Freddie Redd, the Don Cherry, and the Tina Brooks. Selling pdf files of their booklets could bring in some extra cash. I know I'd buy one of the Nat King Cole set which I was too poor to afford at the time.

greg mo