Self taught saxophone (or other instruments) players in jazz

[Rasputin]

Hey,

I'm doing some personal research, and I would appreciate if you could throw me some names of jazz musicians (with special mention of sax players) who consider thenselves largely or completely self-taught. Their importance has to be average (Fred Anderson from AACM) to high (Ornette Coleman) if that's possible.

By self taught I mean- had little to non private lessons, and of course never got Julliard style education. Nationality, sex, race is not important.

I have a list that I'm making- it's rather large (about 20-30 names). Many of them are form the free jazz movement

Thank you very much in advance

Edited September 9, 2009 by Raspuitin

[Free For All]

Just FYI, I think most people would consider Fred Anderson's importance much higher than "average". He may not be as well known as Ornette, but his influence is widespread.

Also, who is truly self-taught? There has to be some level of mentoring at some point. You can't learn jazz on a desert island. I think the lack of a formal education doesn't necessarily mean there is no other teaching going on.

[flat5]

Lucky Thompson, A unique story.

[7/4]

Lucky Thompson, A unique story.

Is that why he's named Lucky?

...

[AllenLowe]

me, on guitar and sax - but I'm not sure I would really say that I'm self taught when I listened to jazz about 8 hours a day from 1968-1970 and than learned by continued listening, by seeing a lot of actual performances, and getting to know certain musicians. I think many jazz people will tell you the same thing. I would count Sonny Rollins and Bud Powell among my teachers, and back then they were only charging $1.98 a lesson -

Dave Schildkraut was technically self-taught, though he always pointed to a Lester Young record and said "that's where I went to school."

Edited September 9, 2009 by AllenLowe

[Rooster_Ties]

At some point, please share that list of 20 or 30 names you already have. Would be interesting to see, and discuss.

Good luck with your project, and most of all, welcome to the board!

[7/4]

like Allen, I'm self taught on the rubber band.

.

[7/4]

I'm also an accomplished elbowist.

.

[Chuck Nessa]

I'd figured that out on my own.

[Rasputin]

Thank you for answering and the warm wellcome.

Here is the list that I gathered (god bless google):

Jan Garbarek: Learned the fingerings even before he had a sax at 14.

Some dude name Robert Stewart: sarted at 17, learned by himself.

Free Jazz idiom:

Peter Brotzmann

Trevor Watts

Ornette Coleman

George Haslam

John Butcher

Dewey Redman (and mainstream son Joshua, though he had some formal lessons).

Small band swing:

Scott Hamilton

Danny Moss, Peter King, Dick Morrissey (all brits)

Zoot Sims???

Nick Brignola

Art Pepper???

Sonny Rollins- but he had classical training on other instuments as a kid.

Also Eddie Locjaw Davis, Plas Johnson (the guy from the Pink Panther Theme) Barney Wilen, Jhonny Hodges.

A sort of rumor: Roland Rahsaan Kirk (probably the most interesting saxophonist I had a chance to hear).

I always find it fascinating to learn about the first steps of famous musicians, as opposed to reading about their achievements after they have developed proper technique playing 15 hours a day.

There are probably many more on other instruments which are easier to master when it comes to making proper sound (keyboards for example. The problem with the keys is that it's a harmonic instrument, and one has to know a lot about harmonic rules, not just how the chords progress).

Just FYI, I think most people would consider Fred Anderson's importance much higher than "average". He may not be as well known as Ornette, but his influence is widespread.

Also, who is truly self-taught? There has to be some level of mentoring at some point. You can't learn jazz on a desert island. I think the lack of a formal education doesn't necessarily mean there is no other teaching going on.

I'm not well versed in jazz history (though I read 2 really huge books about it:)) so you may be right. I know he helped to found the AACM so that's big.

Yes, no one is really self-taught and at the same time everyone is. Because the bottom line, even with the best teacher it's you that have to take the sax out of the case when you're back home and practice. Though there's no doubt that even for such basic stuff as fingerings, mouth position- a teacher is the easy and practical way.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Raspuitin

[flat5]

"Is that why he's named Lucky?"

Ok, here is some of the story.

http://www.jazzhouse.org/gone/lastpost2.php3?edit=1137519707

[clifford_thornton]

Well, if you stick around you'll learn a lot here.

I agree that "self-taught" is a bit of a misnomer in most cases.

[Free For All]

Yes, no one is really self-taught and at the same time everyone is. Because the bottom line, even with the best teacher it's you that have to take the sax out of the case when you're back home and practice. Though there's no doubt that even for such basic stuff as fingerings, mouth position- a teacher is the easy and practical way.

This is getting into semantics, but I don't consider practicing alone as criteria for being self-taught. What you're practicing is something you've studied, either with a teacher or by listening to another player.

It's just my opinion that there there's no such thing as "self-taught". There are always teachers involved in some way IMO.

[JSngry]

Now, "self, taut", that's another matter entirely...

[Guest Bill Barton]

I'd add alto saxophonist Wally Shoup to your list of "free" players. He's been an "out" cat from day one and is essentially self-taught. He's definitely got the chops to play in other styles but chooses not to do so.

[jeffcrom]

Okay, here's my aphorism on this subject, which is either Zen-like in its wisdom or just stupid:

No musician is self-taught, and all musicians are self-taught.

[Chuck Nessa]

I'll take that.

[thedwork]

Okay, here's my aphorism on this subject, which is either Zen-like in its wisdom or just stupid:

No musician is self-taught, and all musicians are self-taught.

I'll take that.

[Rasputin]

Say Bill, any idea of Roland Kirk? I think that he had formal studies in the school for the blind. From stories about him it's said that he would cut mercilessly (sp- sorry) jam players who didn't know the ol' standards or could play them in a basic key...

He is defiently impressing- his showmanship and knowledge of jazz... and the 3 horns!

[Niko]

Say Bill, any idea of Roland Kirk? I think that he had formal studies in the school for the blind. From stories about him it's said that he would cut mercilessly (sp- sorry) jam players who didn't know the ol' standards or could play them in a basic key...

He is defiently impressing- his showmanship and knowledge of jazz... and the 3 horns!

one thing that puzzled me quite a bit was the remark in the liner notes to that album with jack mcduff that kirk was a collector of old sheet music...

[AllenLowe]

in Braille?

[Rasputin]

There was a fascinating human named Moondog, he was a homeless composer who's compositions were played in Carnegie Hall. He was also blind but not from birth, and he learned his theory and harmony from a music book in braille... Plus there's Lennie Tristano who is probably somekind of super human, mastering so many instruments and developing such complicated music without the benefit of western notation.

[Guest Bill Barton]

Say Bill, any idea of Roland Kirk? I think that he had formal studies in the school for the blind. From stories about him it's said that he would cut mercilessly (sp- sorry) jam players who didn't know the ol' standards or could play them in a basic key...

He is defiently impressing- his showmanship and knowledge of jazz... and the 3 horns!

You're correct that he studied music at the Ohio State School for the Blind and played in school bands from around age 12. So, technically, he probably wouldn't be considered "self-taught," but others here have rightly pointed out that the whole concept is nebulous at best.

I like jeffcrom's aphorism!

[Hoppy T. Frog]

Tim Berne?

[7/4]

Tim Berne?

lessons from Julius Hemphill.