What Standard Ought to Be Retired?

[AllenLowe]

Personally I can never get enough of "Feelings..."

[Soul Stream]

Maybe you're just tired of bad musicians. Not bad tunes.

[J Larsen]

In my opinion, The Girl from Ipanema is one of the lamest songs ever written and there has never been a less-than-repulsive version of it. I have fantisized about destroying every copy of every recording of it and burning every copy of the sheet music ever printed, and, if necessary, imprisoning every fan of the song for the rest of their lives lest they try to revive it.

Worst of all, it seems that I hear this song everywhere I go. For instance, eveytime I wind up at some "jazz brunch" on the weekend, the band inevitably plays this song. It always just makes me want to leave. Would it be rude to offer to pay them to NOT play it, at least until I leave?

[J Larsen]

Oh, and I'm usually pretty mellow about my musical dislikes (live and let live, etc.) That song just REALLY hits a raw nerve.

[Jim Alfredson]

Would it be rude to offer to pay them to NOT play it, at least until I leave?

←

Not at all. In fact, if you ever see Organissimo, please pay me $300 up front and I promise not to play it

[J Larsen]

For $300 I think the agreement has too last for life!

[Soul Stream]

As long as we're talking songs we'd rather not hear....how 'bout so many of those lame "originals" that go nowhere we're subjected to....

[Guest]

In my opinion, The Girl from Ipanema is one of the lamest songs ever written and there has never been a less-than-repulsive version of it. I have fantisized about destroying every copy of every recording of it and burning every copy of the sheet music ever printed, and, if necessary, imprisoning every fan of the song for the rest of their lives lest they try to revive it.

Worst of all, it seems that I hear this song everywhere I go. For instance, eveytime I wind up at some "jazz brunch" on the weekend, the band inevitably plays this song. It always just makes me want to leave. Would it be rude to offer to pay them to NOT play it, at least until I leave?

←

It is NEVER rude to offer musicians not to play a particular tune. It's kinda like paying "protection money" or wearing a helmut. Kinda like wearing a condom to avoid a particular unpleasantness; ya never know where that girl from Impanema has been...

This one of the reasons that I would LOVE to win millions in the lottery. Picture this if you will. (Bring the band down behind me, boys). You walk into a joint, sit down with yer honey, order the Oysters Bustoso-Issimo and the Black and Tan Fantasy Steak (or wotever)...the strained strains of trio waft over like used car salesman with cheap cologne. They're wrestling with the Girl From Impanema; both are suffering from the cruel and prolonged beating. You stand up, excuse yer bad self, walk over to the musicians' pen.

"Excuse me...what are they payin' ya here? Well here's double that price. Don't play that tune anymore!"

Wouldn't that be fun? Yes, and OF COURSE it would! And the world would be a happier place cuz you're happy and the trio-del-diablo is happy! It's amazing what a sack of money can do to facillitate happiness.

[Guest]

As long as we're talking songs we'd rather not hear....how 'bout so many of those lame "originals" that go nowhere we're subjected to....

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True enough. But originals are like "angry young men" that one rarely ever sees again cuz the band breaks up, you avoid them, or they're forgotten about by the band members themselves.

Standards-we'd-rather-not-hear-anymore are like "angry-young-men" that have not suffered infanticide and thus grown into being "angry-old-men" that have poisoned those around them for a real long time!

[Soul Stream]

As long as we're talking songs we'd rather not hear....how 'bout so many of those lame "originals" that go nowhere we're subjected to....

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True enough. But originals are like "angry young men" that one rarely ever sees again cuz the band breaks up, you avoid them, or they're forgotten about by the band members themselves.

Standards-we'd-rather-not-hear-anymore are like "angry-young-men" that have not suffered infanticide and thus grown into being "angry-old-men" that have poisoned those around them for a real long time!

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I find that many bands that avoid standards do so because they would should the lacking musicianship in the band. Standards are just that....

Edited July 4, 2005 by Soul Stream

[Guest]

As long as we're talking songs we'd rather not hear....how 'bout so many of those lame "originals" that go nowhere we're subjected to....

←

True enough. But originals are like "angry young men" that one rarely ever sees again cuz the band breaks up, you avoid them, or they're forgotten about by the band members themselves.

Standards-we'd-rather-not-hear-anymore are like "angry-young-men" that have not suffered infanticide and thus grown into being "angry-old-men" that have poisoned those around them for a real long time!

←

I find that many bands that avoid standards do so because they would should the lacking musicianship in the band. Standards are just that....

←

I don't agree at all, but the funny thing is...you have a very valid point! I'm sure many people have wondered, while listening to some contemporary Jazz bands, "Gee, I wonder what they can (or can't) do with (enter the name of standard-du-jour HERE)...". After all, a Standard is a standard with which to be able to judge, to ascertain a level of compitance, an "A" to "B" comparison, etc.

But then again, I'm sure there were guys way back when who wondered the same kinda thing about Bird/Diz and their worthy constituents...

And speaking of standards : do you like the Jarrett/Gary/deJohnette trio? The Abercrombie/Johnson/Erskine trio's self-titled recording (recorded live in Boston,1988)? Joey Baron's Baron Down band reading of "The Shadow of Your Smile" on their TONGUE IN GROOVE recording? Marc Ribot's reading of "I Should Care" from ROOTLESS COSMOPOLITANS?

I've sometimes felt that the avoidance of "doing standrds" due to instrumental incompitance and emotional immaturity (some moderns think they're "above" it!) has a flipside, namely that the "doing of standrds" is a laziness of a differant sort; the laziness of playing what you know will generate positive hosanahs from folks who need to be reassured that "oh, yeah, there's a chestnut" and then proceed to turn off the critical listening facillities. The laziness of the listener erecting barriers to the unpreviously heard.

It's kinda like hearing "The Eagle Flies on Friday" tune in a blues club : GUARANTEED to elicit hip-hip-hoorahs...no matter how boring it is performed. The recognition factor in the listener (oo-oo, nice choice of notes on that chord change...) has much to do with this pavlovian response. And how many times have we witnessed the saccharine pompousness of rabid ignorance when a singer sits in on "Misty" etc? Ra-ra-ra, everyone shouts. And for what? Another hackneyed rendition resulting in blind devotional orgasms in one group and utter boredom in another group.

I think we identify Jazz too much with the vehicles (tunes) of yesteryear while ignoring what was actually said. Max Roach said too many improvisors play the background and not the tune. That being said, Ive always been curious to hear the Peter Brotzman's, the Cecil Taylor's, and the Milford Graves' of the world get down with their bad selves to "Orinthology" or "Daahoud" or "Joy Spring" or "Lush Life". It's the curiousity of "What kinda underwear is she wearing?"....but does it really matter? I STILL don't have a firm answer (oh wow! nice pun! Ha-ha-ha!).

Currently listening to Jarrett/Peacock/Jack live in Tokyo.

[Soul Stream]

All great points ben*diks. I actually agree 100%. You're analogy to "Stormy Monday" is a good one. I guess it's really the intentions of the performer that matter most. Hearing B.B. King perform "Stormy Monday" live is one thing...hearing it at a blues jam is another.

And I'm actually not against hearing a whole set or whole night of originals by a jazz band. But usually, the writing just isn't all that great or original enough to merit not doing at least a few well chosen and/or reworked standards. Plus, I do think it's nice for the listener when they know the melodies you're trying to improvise on at least every once in a while. I know I do.

[Guest]

All great points ben*diks.  I actually agree 100%.  You're analogy to "Stormy Monday" is a good one.  I guess it's really the intentions of the performer that matter most.  Hearing B.B. King perform "Stormy Monday" live is one thing...hearing it at a blues jam is another.

And I'm actually not against hearing a whole set or whole night of originals by a jazz band.  But usually, the writing just isn't all that great or original enough to merit not doing at least a few well chosen and/or reworked standards.  Plus, I do think it's nice for the listener when they know the melodies you're trying to improvise on at least every once in a while.  I know I do.

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Duke Ellington always played some of his chestnuts (why chestnuts?why not almonds?and aren't nuts nowhere near the chest?) during concerts. Except on rare occassions, he thought it was impolite to play a concert of just new tunes. There is something to be said for playing music that the audience can hang their hat on to, so to speak. This can be accomplished by playing standards and tunes based on zat-damn-who's- sane" AABA form with the requisite 2-5-1 inspired harmonic aromas : the Jazz version of playing in a top-40 cover band. It's a double-edged sword, true enough. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. The answer will always lie in originality and vitality of the vehicle/the background and the originality and vitality of the interpretations/variations thereof.

Or we can just say f***** it, I'm joining a joining the Foreign Legion.

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Currently listening to a shuffled playlist of Melt Banana, the Tidbits, King Crimson.

[rostasi]

Standards should be played as if they're not.

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Now playing: Jackie McLean - Love and Hate

[Guest]

Standards should be played as if they're not.

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Oo-oo...that was a good one! It reminds me the ethic the Jack/Peacock/Jarrett trio, to give just one example, uses in their reading of standards.

"Standards should be played as if they're not" --------quote du jour.

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Currently listening to Koto Music of Japan.

[Nate Dorward]

Dredging up an old thread because I was listening to a CD today & it hit me: I really, really, really don't like "Lover" as a jazz standard. (I like the original appearance in Love Me Tonight, of course, where it's delivered by Jeanette Macdonald with a horse.) It's one of those tunes that seems to encourage solos that go on & on & on without much shape, & unlike other "play really fast & try out your licks" tunes like "Giant Steps" it's not even a sequence of chords I find interesting when heard ad nauseam. Let alone the darn melody.

[Larry Kart]

Johnny Mandel is a fine composer, but I'd be a happy man if I knew I'd never hear "The Shadow of Your Smile" or "Emily" again -- the latter especially because you don't hear the former as much as you used to, and also not often from people who can play, while the latter does crop in the repertoire of reasonable people. What a nagging melody.

[BillF]

Despite my admiration for Benny Golson, I'd prefer "Whisper Not" to be whisper not again.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

This one

(1949 Standard Vanguard)

MG

[Dan Gould]

Despite my admiration for Benny Golson, I'd prefer "Whisper Not" to be whisper not again.

YMMV and all that, but what the hell have you been smoking?

[Dan Gould]

This thread looked familiar and sure enough, I see that I was the one who started it, way back when. So why is it that the thread originator doesn't display anymore on the "new posts" page? I thought that after Jim's little accident that deleted a number of accounts, old threads started by deleted users got displayed but no member name would be displayed as the starter. But I ain't left this place yet ...

Maybe the database was messed up in a previous "upgrade"?

[Peter Friedman]

This thread has been interesting because it shows how one persons view of a tune that should be "retired" is a favorite of the next person. A number of the tunes mentioned are ones I continue to enjoy even though I have heard them played countless times.

Here are the ones I would be happy to not hear for quite some time.

Misty

Satin Doll

Caravan

Summertime

Green Dolphin Street

'Round Midnight

Take The A Train

[BillF]

This thread has been interesting because it shows how one persons view of a tune that should be "retired" is a favorite of the next person. A number of the tunes mentioned are ones I continue to enjoy even though I have heard them played countless times.

Here are the ones I would be happy to not hear for quite some time.

Misty

Satin Doll

Caravan

Summertime

Green Dolphin Street

'Round Midnight

Take The A Train

Your list seems to be of tunes with fairly simple, easily memorable melodic lines. Perhaps the boredom factor is more easily kept at bay with complex, "unsingable" lines; e.g. Charlie Parker's "Confimation", "Relaxin' at Camarillo" and Monk's "Four In One". Most in your list are from the pre-bop era with simpler harmonic structures, so perhaps this is also a reason why they don't last too well for the jazz-attuned listener.

[Christiern]

I hated When the Saints Go Marchin' In until I heard Marion Williams sing it to the accompaniment of Milt Jackson and Ray Brown. I hated Happy Days Are Here Again until I heard Barbra Streisand slow it down for Johnny Carson.

Even the most banal, over-played song can be wonderful in the right hands, so I would not eliminate any of the standards...especially not these days, when most of the "new" stuff is the kind of crap that now wins Oscars and Grammys.