Horace Silver in the 1970s

[rdavenport]

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Edited Saturday at 07:14 PM by rdavenport

[ghost of miles]

This past week I taped an Andy Bey program and used the version of "Peace" that appears on Horace's UNITED STATES OF MIND (many thanks to the poster who hipped me to this recording in another thread...I bought UNITED STATES OF MIND a couple of years ago, but hadn't actually listened to it yet). Listened to all of disc 1 of UNITED STATES tonight & found myself liking it a lot more than I thought I would. The only other Horace I have from the 1970s is IN PURSUIT OF THE 27TH MAN, which I also dug...any thoughts, recs on this period, which seems to have often been maligned? I'm particularly interested in the SILVER 'N series (saw Jsngry's rec for a compilation with some of that material when I did a search for Horace/1970s threads tonight).

[Free For All]

I've long been an advocate of the Silver 'N series to be released on CD. The recordings do have a definite 70s sound (esp. drums/bass) but I love the playing of Tom Harrell and Bob Berg, and I've always liked the Wade Marcus charts. Some nice tunes came out of those records (Barbara, Dameron's Dance to name a couple). I remember I originally bought Silver 'N Brass because I saw Frank Rosolino's name on it- of course he only played in the ensemble and didn't solo, but I did get to hear Harrell and Berg for the first time, so it was a good investment. My favorites were Brass, Wood and Percussion- the Voices and Strings less so.

I was hoping Mosaic might make a Select, but maybe they don't think it would sell.

[JSngry]

I'm with Paul about the tunes - Horace was still growing as a writer and there are some really meaty gems there, some true "lost gems".

Not so hot on Harrell, Berg, or Larry Schnieder, who's on at least one (hold your calls, please, I know they're all great players, just personal preferences at work, nothing more), but they don't mess anyth8ng up either, far from it. There's also a lot of that dreaded 70s "recording sound" too, so people who hear "style" over "substance" might well let that be all they need to hear before rendering a negative verdict.

But I tell you this, and will stand by it no matter what - there is plenty of great writing on those albums. People who are interested in Horace Silver - Jazz Composer and not just Horace Silver - Purveyor Of Funky Hard Bop (and what is that, about enough people to buy about 2/3 of the promos that would get released?) need to hear these albums. For those people, it's my understanding that the whole series has been blogged somewhere. But I couldn't tell you where, for real. Since I already have all the albums, I didn't follow the trail.

And Paul - when you get a sec, go back to Voices (with Monica Mancini apparently the female lead, which explains any number of things...) & check out "I Will Always Love You". Skip the performance and check out the tune. Talk about something that sounds fairly straightforward until you really listen to it, this is it!

Edited September 5, 2009 by JSngry

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

so, you think his charts were cool but he needed better sidemen?

[JSngry]

Not necessarily....just a working band to learn the tunes & make the records. They just lack - just a little - that "organic" thing that Horace's records had when he used his working band (even the quintet on 27th Man was a working band, iirc). Of course, with all the "extras" you're gonna have some of that , but...I dunno...it sounds like studio music in execution & there is so much more there. A better producer might have pulled it all together, maybe.

Horace didn't have a full-time band back then, just groups he put together for runs of gigs. Somewhat the same thing, but not quite...I know he used John McNeil a lot in the 70s, and he's a fine player, but tenor players...I don't know...I once heard he was using Ron Bridgewater for a little while, and hell, I'd prefer Bob Berg, but who else, I don't know.

But yeah, the charts are mostly superb.

Edited September 5, 2009 by JSngry

[Stereojack]

I bought them all as they came out.

Didn't care for the United States of Mind series - some nice tunes, but the vocals were a bringdown.

In Pursuit of the 27th Man is a gem.

The Silver And series were good, although they seem somewhat overblown when I listen to them today. I can understand Horace's need to expand his horizons, but to me the quintet sides will always remain the classics.

I saw Horace live around the time that the last in the Siver And series came out (Silver And Strings - Music of the Spheres). He was leading a quintet, and he played several pieces from the new album. The quintet renditions totally kicked ass!

Many of the albums on his own Silveto label suffered from the same problem as the US of Mind series - too many vocals. Spritualizing the Senses is a fine all instrumental record, and well worth the search.

[Dan Gould]

I agree with the last thing Jack said, that Silveto label release, with no vocals, is the best of the lot. I bought the Silver 'N' series a long time ago and its been about that long since I listened. Did dig a good portion of them other than Voices but I tend to go back to the classic quintet recordings for a Horace fix. I should revisit these BN releases that marked the end of Blue Note's continuous operation.

[jlhoots]

I know it's not the 70's, but I like The Hardbop Grandpop.

[mjzee]

Many of the albums on his own Silveto label suffered from the same problem as the US of Mind series - too many vocals. Spritualizing the Senses is a fine all instrumental record, and well worth the search.

I remember when Spiritualizing the Senses came out, and lyrics were printed on the back cover; when I saw that, I inwardly cringed. Then I heard the record and - surprise! - no vocals, just a lot of good music. It was a very pleasant surprise. Eddie Harris was on that record, correct?

[JSngry]

I saw Horace live around the time that the last in the Siver And series came out (Silver And Strings - Music of the Spheres). He was leading a quintet, and he played several pieces from the new album. The quintet renditions totally kicked ass!

Who was in the band, Jack?

And yeah, that's what I mean - those are some badass tunes on those albums. but they were written and recorded in a different time, place, and working environment than the "classics", so...attention was not necessarily being paid. Understandable enough, I'm just saying that it's not like Horace Silver stopped creating great music after his classic run at Blue Note, he just kinda stopped making great records. But by then, in most [peoples' minds (and in a lot of peoples' careers and actual playing opportunities), the records pretty much were the music.

It would be kinda cool to get a band together and play some of those 70s tunes, though. Tell you what - anybody who would go into a situation think they can readily "handle" Horace's 70s music based on their experience with his earlier works is in for at least a little surprise!

BTW - I had nearly forgotten, but I included a cut from Horace's final BN album (which was actually BN's last "new" release before going dormant) on one of my BFT's (the first one I think. If anybody still has their copy & wants to get a listen to how Horace was writing in those days, there it is.

[kh1958]

Many of the albums on his own Silveto label suffered from the same problem as the US of Mind series - too many vocals. Spritualizing the Senses is a fine all instrumental record, and well worth the search.

I remember when Spiritualizing the Senses came out, and lyrics were printed on the back cover; when I saw that, I inwardly cringed. Then I heard the record and - surprise! - no vocals, just a lot of good music. It was a very pleasant surprise. Eddie Harris was on that record, correct?

Yes--it was recorded in 1983. I bought it from him personally when he appeared at the Caravan of Dreams in 1985. As I recall, his quintet played some of the music from this recording, with Ralph Moore on tenor and Brian Lynch on trumpet--Horace was playing really well, the music was even better live than the record--I heard four sets, all fabulous and inspired.

I know it's not the 70's, but I like The Hardbop Grandpop.

Me too.

[DMP]

I caught the Harrell/Schneider edition at the Village Vanguard - they were burning! It was amost too much!! I'd never hard a Silver group play with so much fire. Then they ended the set with a number from "Voices" (and album I had, but rarely listened to) - think the title was something about Indians (??) - it was very melancholy, just a haunting performance - the crowd was silent for a couple of seconds at the end, then erupted into the most enthusiastic applause of the evening - the group couldn't leave the stand. A memorable performance in my lifetime of hearing memorable performances. Still don't care for the album, though.

[JSngry]

Seems to be a theme developing here....great tunes, great live perfomrances of them...kind of "ehh..." on the albums....what are the odds that Horace has a stockpile of live tapes from the 70s?

Wasn't that "Indians" tune on the "Percussion" album? Side Two was an "Aztec Suite" or something like that...

Edited September 5, 2009 by JSngry

[DMP]

Forgot about the "... 'N' Percussion" album, now I'm not sure. That album had a song called "Great American Indian Uprising" (or something like that), which doesn't sound too melancholy... My recollection is that it was on "Voices, I'll have to look into this. And wasn't there a "Strings" album? Anyways, I wonderful melody, and as you have all mentioned, another forgotten one from one of Silver's most fertile periods.

[JSngry]

In order of release: Brass, Wood, Voices, Percussion, & Strings.

Just checked & "The Great American Indian Uprising" was the title of the suite on Side Two of Percussion. The individaul titles were "The Idols Of The Incas", :The Aztec Sun God", & "The Mohican & The Great Spirit".

Just listened to the first side of Voices, and it sounds like there's raw quintet tracks to be had by stripping away the overdubbed voices. Hmmmm....

[DMP]

My memory of the song's title is most likely wrong, it's been more than 30 years. I'd know it if I heard it. (The opening phrase is F, G flat, A flat, B flat, F.) Thanks for the info!

[Peter Friedman]

I recall seeing the Horace Silver Quintet at the Sutherland in Chicago in the year 1957. Blue Mitchell. Junior Cook, Gene Taylor and Louis Hayes were in the band. The music was exceptional.

I enjoy "In Pursuit of the 27th Man", but the other Silver recordings from the 1970's don't do much for me.

[ghost of miles]

I've seen this listed before--a DVD of Silver performing in 1976, though supposedly the tunes are ones he never recorded commercially:

Horace Silver Quintet 1976

Would love to find out that Horace--or somebody--was sitting on a stash of live tapes from the 1970s...that would make a great Select, I'd wager.

[BillF]

I recall seeing the Horace Silver Quintet at the Sutherland in Chicago in the year 1957. Blue Mitchell. Junior Cook, Gene Taylor and Louis Hayes were in the band. The music was exceptional.

I wish I'd seen them at that time. I didn't catch them until 1969 at Ronnie Scott's, when the Brecker brothers and Billy Cobham were in the band. The rapport between Billy and Horace was sensational!

[JSngry]

I've seen this listed before--a DVD of Silver performing in 1976, though supposedly the tunes are ones he never recorded commercially:

Horace Silver Quintet 1976

Not at all true: http://www.naxosdirect.com/HORACE-SILVER-Q...C/title/107039/

# Adjustment (NTSC) - 08:11 (from Silver 'n Brass)

# Barbara (NTSC) - 12:57 (ditto)

# In Pursuit of the 27th Man (NTSC) - 15:48

# Song for my Father (NTSC) - 12:58

Tom Harrell Trumpet

Bob Berg Sax (Tenor)

Horace Silver Piano

Steve Beskrone Bass

Eddie Gladden Drums

No idea who Steve Beskrone is, but hey - Eddie Gladden!!!!

[ghost of miles]

Ah! Thanks much--didn't see a track listing on the CD Universe site.

Here's a video of the quintet circa 1974, doing "Liberated Brother" from IPOT27th MAN:

[JSngry]

Great tune! Not written by Horace (but by Weldon Irvine) but it might as well have been.

[Stereojack]

I saw Horace live around the time that the last in the Siver And series came out (Silver And Strings - Music of the Spheres). He was leading a quintet, and he played several pieces from the new album. The quintet renditions totally kicked ass!

Who was in the band, Jack?

Front line was Barry Ries (tp), Ron Bridgewater (tenor), can't remember the bass and drums.

[JSngry]

Barry Ries is a baaaad man!