the trouble with bassists (not)

[JSngry]

...part of me doesn't want to engage with a crazy person...

That's the part you should be listening to.

[Free For All]

update -

well, I have a rehearsal today with a new bass player, very young as well - he says he'll show up. We'll see.

and even better - you may remember from the initial post that there was a drummer who didn't show up and who then sent me this idiot email to the effect of "sorry, yeah, I should called, but I was doing something else." Well, in my inimitable and irritating way I've been sending him emails (this guy REALLY pissed me off) - the last of which had in the subject line: BETTER CHECK YOUR CALENDER YOU DON'T WANT TO MISS A REHEARSAL -

he sent me an email to "stop fucken (sic) emailing me - want to fight, old man?"

now part of me doesn't want to engage with a crazy person, if that's what he is (physically he's a skinny 19 year old) - but I resent the threat and being called "old" which I feel is part of the problem, a real generational disrespect - on the other hand I did bait him. Still, he's a fuckhead either way. So far I have not responded, and probably will not.

what would you do?

IMO- don't engage him anymore- forget about him. Cross him off the list. Life's too short to waste energy on BS like this.

[Indestructible!]

Allen,

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but maybe if all these people are having issues with you, maybe the problem lies in how YOU'RE dealing with them (i.e., the problem is you, not them)? Sure, there are bound to be some bass players/drummers in your area who are unreliable, but if most of them are blowing you off, then perhaps you need to look at your behavior to see why they aren't interested in returning.

As for the e-mail stuff, I agree with FFA... just let it go. You're doing yourself no favors by harassing that drummer. I'm sure these young guys all talk to each other, and you don't want word to go around that Lowe is that "crazy old man" who stalks/harasses people via e-mail. It sounds like it's tough enough to find people to play within your demands... why make it worse?

Again, no disrespect intended... just a perspective from someone removed from the situation.

Cheers!

[BruceH]

update -

well, I have a rehearsal today with a new bass player, very young as well - he says he'll show up. We'll see.

and even better - you may remember from the initial post that there was a drummer who didn't show up and who then sent me this idiot email to the effect of "sorry, yeah, I should called, but I was doing something else." Well, in my inimitable and irritating way I've been sending him emails (this guy REALLY pissed me off) - the last of which had in the subject line: BETTER CHECK YOUR CALENDER YOU DON'T WANT TO MISS A REHEARSAL -

he sent me an email to "stop fucken (sic) emailing me - want to fight, old man?"

now part of me doesn't want to engage with a crazy person, if that's what he is (physically he's a skinny 19 year old) - but I resent the threat and being called "old" which I feel is part of the problem, a real generational disrespect - on the other hand I did bait him. Still, he's a fuckhead either way. So far I have not responded, and probably will not.

what would you do?

I would not reply. Let life push him around.

[AllenLowe]

Indestructable --

I can say with confidence that I did NOTHING to deserve the kind of behavior these guys exhibited - even with that drummer, whose email to me upon missing the rehearsal, was inexcusably indifferent - my crime with him was to actually answer him in kind.

I have been leading bands for 25 years - I know how to treat people- I have recorded at the Knitting Factory on more than one occasion, and I gigged steadily in Connecticut for about 15 years.

as references I will offer the following -

Matt Shipp

Marc Ribot

Erin McKeown

Lewis Porter

Joe Albany (yeah, I know he's gone, but years ago he actually gave me a letter of reference)

Julius Hemphill (also gone, but he was a good guy and we got along well)

Roswell Rudd

David Murray

Jeff Fuller

Ray Kaczynski

Doc Cheatham (another one who's long gone, so we may have to seance) -

Don Byron

Anthony Braxton

all of the above, except for Braxton, have worked as sidemen with MY BANDS - and all have, or at least when they were alive, remained friends of mine. (Anthony has proposed we do something together but nothing's happened yet). Your disclaimer doesn't make your post any less insulting. And I don't really care what these guys say about me; if they can't handle the minimal demands that I make (and believe me, they are minimal) they should not be playing. As a matter of fact, I think age is a factor, yes, but in a different way, as a reason for their indifference - like, "who is this old guy?" (and most of them have never even heard of anyone on that list, believe it or not). That's fine, nobody's making them work with me, the problem is that they commit and than don't keep the commitment.

Edited August 31, 2009 by AllenLowe

[AllenLowe]

p.s.

I had a rehearsal yesterday with an actual, living, breathing bass player. Things are looking up,

[BruceH]

Did he talk with his mouth full and pee on your carpet?

[AllenLowe]

just a little - got it all up with pet stain remover.

[B. Clugston]

update -

well, I have a rehearsal today with a new bass player, very young as well - he says he'll show up. We'll see.

and even better - you may remember from the initial post that there was a drummer who didn't show up and who then sent me this idiot email to the effect of "sorry, yeah, I should called, but I was doing something else." Well, in my inimitable and irritating way I've been sending him emails (this guy REALLY pissed me off) - the last of which had in the subject line: BETTER CHECK YOUR CALENDER YOU DON'T WANT TO MISS A REHEARSAL -

he sent me an email to "stop fucken (sic) emailing me - want to fight, old man?"

now part of me doesn't want to engage with a crazy person, if that's what he is (physically he's a skinny 19 year old) - but I resent the threat and being called "old" which I feel is part of the problem, a real generational disrespect - on the other hand I did bait him. Still, he's a fuckhead either way. So far I have not responded, and probably will not.

what would you do?

Sounds like you should beat him up.

[JazzmanJ]

I'm new here and as a bass player this thread caught my attention.

Of course it ain't the instrument Allen is having troubles with, I think it is generally a lack of professionalism among younger players, and by that I mean early and mid-twenties. Many of them haven't had the chance to work with a properly managed band and are unfamiliar with the responsibilities of one. They are not too far removed from only playing with their friends from school where irresponsible behaviour is acceptable if not expected in the roleplay of jazz musician.

As a sometime band leader this is not an uncommon problem but Allen you did have an uncommon run of bad bass luck.

In a musician over 25 years of age that kinda behaviour is unacceptable. I don't know what you do about it other than not hire them,the last thing you want is to take on the parental role for a bunch of wannbe jazzers.

You heard the one about the bass player getting locked in the car? Took half an hour to get him out. badaboom thank you and goodnight.

[AllenLowe]

well, it's funny, and in all my prior years of gigging I never really had any problem. There is definitely some kind of generational thing going on. I may have discussed this in other places in this forum, but we are definitely seeing a generation of young people who have gone through some odd kind of "you are special" schooling in all aspects; my wife, who is a manager, sees it in the workplace, personfied by a spoiled, "you must make me feel good" psychobabble. With the second bass player and the drummer, this is exactly what happened - they both came back at me with this "oh, gee, isn't that silly, not-a-big-deal because I had something better to do" attitude - and were both quite shocked that I did not respond like their daycare teacher would have, in some kind of "nurturing" "that's ok dear" way. I just demanded basic personal responsibility, and I'm willing to bet that this also bothered Indestructible in his earlier response. But guys, you gotta grow up and get out of this narcissistic world view. It's really a lousy and disrespectful way to treat people.

[BeBop]

Once upon a time, I couldn't get a drummer to show up...until I "hired" Chip. Chip was a drum machine. (Get it?)

Yeah, obviously not going to work for a live gig or a recording. But it saved about a million rehearsals.

[AllenLowe]

and he won't sleep with your wife -

[Chuck Nessa]

Don't bet on it. Or am I thinking of Duracell?

[AllenLowe]

is this some kind of new percussive vibrator?

[Chuck Nessa]

on 1 and 3.

[JSngry]

If that's how she programs it...

[ep1str0phy]

I've encountered the behavior Allen's mentioned among some members of my age group. At the same time, some of the most professional people I've ever met were/are acting like adults in their early-mid 20's.

Is no one so immature in their youth? I'd like to think, and experience partly confirms it, that no one who isn't acceptably serious about the profession, whether or not he/she subsists on music alone, ultimately leaves/gets weeded out. At the same time, I've experienced a lot of very immature, very unprofessional behavior from some "high level" musicians.

I can't speak to the apparent, widespread failure of my generation to treat people with civility, since I'm already, by nature, a misanthrope and will take anything the wrong way. Notably, those situations in which I've found musicians in general (younger ones particularly) least "in the game" about the music have been, precisely, low-paying, low-profile gigs.

I think that, in some ways, I've grown up with the "as serious as your life" mantra and regret the contempt that I viscerally feel in those situations wherein folks don't treat the grunt work of the profession with some degree of initiative. I think that anybody is so, so, so lucky to be playing music, or (as is often the case in the Bay) doing music-related stuff like teaching and gigging for a living. (I recall Derek Bailey calling bullshit on people who would rather work in a factory than play commercial music or something to that effect... (paraphrasing) "...then you haven't worked in a factory.")

Edited September 1, 2009 by ep1str0phy

[Niko]

just got an email from my bass player cancelling a rehearsal two days in advance... but then we carefully chose a bass player who is a bit older than the rest of us (like 32 i guess) plus we allowed him to get pedals for his keyboard so that he doesn't have to play bass anymore...

[AllenLowe]

he probably can't make it because he's locked in his car -

[7/4]

well, it's funny, and in all my prior years of gigging I never really had any problem. There is definitely some kind of generational thing going on. I may have discussed this in other places in this forum, but we are definitely seeing a generation of young people who have gone through some odd kind of "you are special" schooling in all aspects; my wife, who is a manager, sees it in the workplace, personfied by a spoiled, "you must make me feel good" psychobabble. With the second bass player and the drummer, this is exactly what happened - they both came back at me with this "oh, gee, isn't that silly, not-a-big-deal because I had something better to do" attitude - and were both quite shocked that I did not respond like their daycare teacher would have, in some kind of "nurturing" "that's ok dear" way. I just demanded basic personal responsibility, and I'm willing to bet that this also bothered Indestructible in his earlier response. But guys, you gotta grow up and get out of this narcissistic world view. It's really a lousy and disrespectful way to treat people.

narcissistic world view.

[Indestructible!]

well, it's funny, and in all my prior years of gigging I never really had any problem. There is definitely some kind of generational thing going on. I may have discussed this in other places in this forum, but we are definitely seeing a generation of young people who have gone through some odd kind of "you are special" schooling in all aspects; my wife, who is a manager, sees it in the workplace, personfied by a spoiled, "you must make me feel good" psychobabble. With the second bass player and the drummer, this is exactly what happened - they both came back at me with this "oh, gee, isn't that silly, not-a-big-deal because I had something better to do" attitude - and were both quite shocked that I did not respond like their daycare teacher would have, in some kind of "nurturing" "that's ok dear" way. I just demanded basic personal responsibility, and I'm willing to bet that this also bothered Indestructible in his earlier response. But guys, you gotta grow up and get out of this narcissistic world view. It's really a lousy and disrespectful way to treat people.

Wait... help me understand you on this quote. Are you suggesting that I'm someone who's bothered by basic personal responsibility?

[Jazzmoose]

I've encountered the types of behavior that you're describing more frequently with drummers than bassists though.

Reminds me of a posting on the public bulletin board at work (Safeway) last week:

Wanted: Drummer

Must know rock and country beats.

No flakes.

I figured they were new...

[AllenLowe]

"Wait... help me understand you on this quote. Are you suggesting that I'm someone who's bothered by basic personal responsibility? "

well, I was no more guilty of making unjustified assumptions than you were in your prior post - in which you assumed that the problem was not with these musicians but with me -

I was, however, suggesting that this generation does not like to be told that they are behaving badly, but prefers a Mr. Rogers/kindergarden approach in which the person is never told that they might be at fault, only that, because they are special, they should treat everybody like they're special.

but go back to your initial suggestion that it was me who was the problem and you'll see the root of my response -

[Indestructible!]

"Wait... help me understand you on this quote. Are you suggesting that I'm someone who's bothered by basic personal responsibility? "

well, I was no more guilty of making unjustified assumptions than you were in your prior post - in which you assumed that the problem was not with these musicians but with me -

I was, however, suggesting that this generation does not like to be told that they are behaving badly, but prefers a Mr. Rogers/kindergarden approach in which the person is never told that they might be at fault, only that, because they are special, they should treat everybody like they're special.

but go back to your initial suggestion that it was me who was the problem and you'll see the root of my response -

Edit: Nm... Post edited to try and keep negativity off the board.

Cheers,

Shane

Edited September 4, 2009 by Indestructible!