Lou Donaldson's Blindfold Test in new Jazz Times

[AllenLowe]

you know, I seem to recall, unfortunately, a very similar Blindfold Test, maybe 15 years or so ago, by James Moody, in which he put down everybody in a similar way. It was weird, because I remember seeing Moody right afterwards, and his playing, aside from being brilliant, was clearly reflective of all the new guys he was putting down -

it's very much a generational thing, I would add. Johnny Carisi used to complain to me about all the "free" Players (to be fair, he also hated the minimalists, and found Clark Terry to be shallow). When I told him that he was related to these guys, he did not agree, I think because he was technically more schooled in the ideas he applied to some of the more adventurous things he wrote. I liked Johnny, but he was clearly from a different era.

Edited August 28, 2009 by AllenLowe

[bertrand]

'Wayne Shorter never could play no changes'.

The use of double negatives actually turns this into a correct statement, although that was not Lou's intention, I'm sure.

Bertrand.

[Indestructible!]

You'd be "salty" too if Chewy called you at your home while you were in the middle of eating a sammich!

Edited August 30, 2009 by Indestructible!

[Noj]

'Wayne Shorter never could play no changes'.

The use of double negatives actually turns this into a correct statement, although that was not Lou's intention, I'm sure.

Bertrand.

That quote might sum up the entire debate. Clearly Shorter is a brilliant musician who has written beautiful, moving music. It is contrasted against a train of traditional thought which produced a whole lot of successful art, wherein players are asked to fit the mold, and Wayne chooses to not fit the mold for the convenience of achieving his greatest potential as an artist. Essentially, we have a situation where there are two interpretations of what is right and wrong and both are correct.

That's art for you. Lou is right to Lou. I'm right to me. You're right to you. Opinions are like assholes, but no one should act like one. Being an asshole about it is the only place Lou goes wrong--but he's entitled to his opinion and like it or not he helps to validate the dissenting opinions.

[umum_cypher]

'Wayne Shorter never could play no changes'.

The use of double negatives actually turns this into a correct statement, although that was not Lou's intention, I'm sure.

Bertrand.

That quote might sum up the entire debate. Clearly Shorter is a brilliant musician who has written beautiful, moving music. It is contrasted against a train of traditional thought which produced a whole lot of successful art, wherein players are asked to fit the mold, and Wayne chooses to not fit the mold for the convenience of achieving his greatest potential as an artist. Essentially, we have a situation where there are two interpretations of what is right and wrong and both are correct.

That's art for you. Lou is right to Lou. I'm right to me. You're right to you. Opinions are like assholes, but no one should act like one. Being an asshole about it is the only place Lou goes wrong--but he's entitled to his opinion and like it or not he helps to validate the dissenting opinions.

Usually I'd be with you, but in this case I think that's unnecessarily relativist. Wayne Shorter could (and did) play the shit out of changes. To the extent that anything in music can be objectively shown, this can.

[JSngry]

Wayne Shorter could (and did) play the shit out of changes.

And still can!!!

[Noj]

I didn't mean to say Shorter can't--more that he doesn't. So Donaldson hears what Shorter plays, and Lou hears it as a limitation because it doesn't fit HIS idea of how it should be played.

But it's entirely possible that as a non-musician I have no idea wtf I'm blabbering about. I have only the vaguest idea what "changes" are. I just have the impression that Lou's playing is more grounded, and Wayne's is more exploratory. I enjoy both musicians immensely, Shorter slightly more.

[Free For All]

I didn't mean to say Shorter can't--more that he doesn't.

Shorter obviously has an efficient internal editing process whereas he doesn't need to play a lot of notes to "play the shit out of the changes". His economy and thoughtful note choices achieve that result IMO, and his compositions reflect that same process of avoidance of "noteyness". "Playing the shit out of the changes" to me is as much about saying more with less as it is playing all the time with little space. Wayne can kill with a single note, usually as much because of attitude as content and also the space he surrounds it with.

One whose measuring stick is based more on criteria from the bop era might think of that economy as a weakness. I find much merit in both approaches.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Free For All

[Van Basten II]

Have to admit, I did not know who David Binney was (is) but that comment made me go to his homepage and listen to his stuff. Sounds great... his tone reminds me of Jerry Bergonzi at times and Charles Lloyd at others.

Poor Lou sounds just jaded and cynical. What a shitty place to be. He hasn't put out a record since what, 1993?

Jim you don't read your own board

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php...8&hl=binney

[AllenLowe]

well, I'm with Lou on this - sometimes I get tired of playing changes. Too much work.

[CJ Shearn]

I read this last week. Man, the comments towards Binney, Shorter, and Lonnie's sidemen are brutal.

[jazzkrow]

Where have people found their copies of Jazz Times in which Lou's BF test is published. I was at the interview in Portland, where Lou made these comments and would love to buy a copy of this issue of Jazz Times. However, all the usual suspects here do not carry Jazz Times since it stopped publishing for a period of time. Can't be found at Borders, Powells. Barnes and Noble. Any leads to buy this issue only (JT website ofers only subscriptions) in Portland or online?

Or can the interview itself be found online?

Thanks!

[Dan Gould]

Can't vouch for Portland since I am about as far away from there as you can go, in south Florida, but you might try any Borders you can find. I thought they weren't carrying it since the re-launch but then I found the only copy. So they may be ordering fewer if they do carry it.

[JSngry]

Believe it or not, I got my copy just last sunday at a Kroger (sic)!

[paul secor]

Saw copies at a local Barnes & Noble this week.

[ValerieB]

got my copy at a local newstand in L.A.

as much as Lou has a firm foothold on his place in jazz history, i think his comments were "ignorant" and totally mean-spirited. what kind of person spouts off like that to kids interested in jazz?!? and it seems pretty clear that he must be starved for some attention these days. i think he made a fool of himself in that interview. he got "fooled" too after being extremely emphatic when he thought he was listening to Cannonball.

[Marsalone]

Hey Jazzkrow,

Was Lou Donaldson as nasty and bitter during the interview or was he just jiving. The BF interview makes him come off as a bitter old man who's upset that more people imitate Trane than him. I was upset reading it. The dude said Cannonball couldn't play!?!? I love Lou's music especially the stuff before he sold out. I've read a couple of interviews where he claimed to be the one responsible for Blue Note's success and artist roster early on and the one who saved them from bankruptcy in the mid 60's with his hit records.

He seems like he needs more love and recognition. But to talk smack about braking a chair over Art Blakey's back, that Donald Harrison and Terrance Blanchard can't play (hey I'm from New Orleans, but I did like the crack about pompous Wynton)

To say that Lonnie would hire anyone to make a buck. This guy crapped on everyone with the exception of Earl Bostic and that guy from Memphis.

Ciao,

D

[PHILLYQ]

Marsalone,

welcome to the board. It seems like you have something to say, so stick around, it gets interesting here.

[paul secor]

Seconded. Hope you'll add to the discussions. The more opinions, the better - and yours seem to be thoughtful.

[jazzkrow]

Marsalone:

I found Lou to be in good spirits and delighting in "shocking" people with his opinions. The audience reacted with surprise, good humor, and frequent applause. His references to Wynton brought approval. Questions were allowed at the conclusion of the Bindfold Test and no one took Lou on-he honestly answered all comers-and added more zingers-about Coltrane, avant jazz, and the present state of jazz in our tough economy.

Lou, appears at his age, to feel he can say what he wants-and some of his comments were off the cuff and maybe to elicit some banter back from the interviewer, who was never non plussed.

There were some oddball questions from the audience at the Performing Arts Center-the crowd was remakably small for this free event.

Lou is locked into his shtick, song list, etc.

I have seen him 3 times and his set list seldom varies as do his stories-"I don't play any Kenny G, no Najee, no fusion, no confusion..."-but when he plays his tone is so sweet, bluesy, that all is forgiven. Having said that, I had not seen Lou live till around 5 years ago and I was so elated to see him then as one of the last old BN men, that I was enraptured. However, now that I have seen virtually the same set several times, I would not be in a hurry to see him again unless he was playing with someone special whom I had not seen before, which is unlikely

Having paid his dues for over 50 years, Lou has the right to his opinions-he is so locked into the blues and feeling that if a jazz saxist cannot convey blues feeling that they cannot play jazz in his opinion. He is like your ornery uncle that you love but shake your head in disbelief on the comments that come out of his mouth.

Both Mark Sheldon and I attended the Lou conversation. Speaking for myself, I was surprised and pleased that Jazz Times published so many of his comments. I was sure that they would water down the interview so as to not offend some of the fans of the jazz artists that Lou smacked down. Kudos to them to lay out Lou's opinons for public comment. I am sure they will be inundated with letters to the editor taking on Lou. Sure way to sell future issues...

[JSngry]

He is like your ornery uncle that you love but shake your head in disbelief on the comments that come out of his mouth.

People who haven't had uncles like that just aren't prepared for real life.

[Brad]

I can think of a number of Blue Note CDs by Donaldson which are no longer in my collection. A lot of it was commercial schlock.

Such as?

Didn't see the article but would agree with him about fusion. However, sometimes it's better not to publicly criticize your colleagues. Those things have a way of comng back to haunt you.

[JSngry]

Hell, the cat's nearly 83. If anything's gonna come back and haunt him, it better already have a lunch packed, a gas tank full, and an alarm set for 4:30 AM.

[Marsalone]

Hey thanks for the welcoming words.

It's funny that you say he has the same set list and banter between songs. I haven't had the chance to see him live but I have heard a handful of live recordings of the off the air bootleg type from Lou over the last 10 or 15 years or so and he does have the same banter and pretty plays the same tunes like Nearness of You, and Alligator Boogaloo, Blues Walk... When you wrote the line he does about Kenny G, fusion, confusion, I thought that it was funny cause I heard it the exact same from four or five live recordings like you did the three times you caught him in person.

Anyway, I still love the guy. His tone and his lines are so sweet. Oh and by he way when I mentioned that I don't like his "Sold Out" stuff I mean the mid 70's stuff. I remember hearing one record so freakin' cheesy. It was Lou with his varitone playing disco arrangements of standards like Night and Day and Begin The Beguine, with strings and female backing vocals. It was painful to listen to but I couldn't stop. It was like watching a movie that is so bad, cheesy and campy that it became a cult classic. Honestly it reminded me of watching Flesh Gordon. That may have been the worst movie I had ever seen. I had to force myself to watch the Flash Gordon spoof filled with sexual puns and jokes. Honestly the joke got old after the first 30 seconds of the movie but I forced myself to watch. Kinda like that Lou Donaldson disco Cole Porter record....

Of course my friends always crapped on me for thinking that Alligator Boogaloo, Everything I Play, and Hot Dog weren't so bad and had some good tracks. They say that he sold out then, and from the blind fold interview it looks like Lou confirms it. But I still dig it.

Anyway from what Jazzkrow is saying it just looks like he is trying to get a rise out of people, like wanting to be the Howard Stern of Jazz minus the porn stars. Well maybe he wants them to but at his age he has his ticker to worry about with that sort of thing...

Peace Out,

Daniel

Edited September 7, 2009 by Marsalone

[johnlitweiler]

Haven't seen this JT article, but there was an interesting paragraph from him in Sounds And Fury about 43 years ago. The Inquiring Photographer, a pretty young lady, was asking famous musicians if there was any homosexuality among jazz musicians. IIRC LD said, "No! Jazz is screwing music!"