Sketches of Spain Remasters

[Teasing the Korean]

I typically don't buy stuff on CD that I have on LP, but there are exceptions, including the first three Miles/Gil Evans albums.

I have the 90s CD remasters of Porgy and Miles ahead. I generally like the sound but they don't sound as good as my mono six-eye LPs.

My CD of Sketches is from the early Columbia jazz CD period with the blue border on the cover. I don't think it sounds that great, but I don't know if I'm pre-disposed to thinking that way because I know it's from the 80s. I love the sound of the mono Sketches LP.

Bonus tracks aside, do the more recent releases of Sketches sound significantly better than the 80s version?

[jazzbo]

In my opinion, yes. My best sounding source is the SACD, but the new two cd release has excellent sound and very well selected extra material. Nice booklet and packaging art too.

[CJ Shearn]

I have the Legacy Edition, and find the sound much better than the Miles/Gil set. Although on disc 2 I skip the live "Aranjuez" because I have the Complete Carnegie Hall, 1961 disc.

[Rupertdacat]

.

... but the new two cd release has excellent sound ...

I've not been entirely happy with the single CD 1997 Legacy edition. Is the remastering of the 50th anniversary 2-CD edition different than that one?

[jazzbo]

I can't tell you as I've never heard that one. . . but it does sound better to me than the box set which probably shared the same mastering as that cd.

[J.A.W.]

Phil Schaap was responsible for the production and mastering of the first edition of the Miles Davis/Gil Evans box and the 1997 Legacy edition of Sketches of Spain. He was not involved in the 2007 "50th Anniversary Legacy Edition" 2CD-set, which has a different, new mastering by Mark Wilder.

Edited August 17, 2009 by J.A.W.

[Cliff Englewood]

Phil Schaap was responsible for the production and mastering of the first edition of the Miles Davis/Gil Evans box and the 1997 Legacy edition of Sketches of Spain. He was not involved in the 2007 "50th Anniversary Legacy Edition" 2CD-set, which has a different, new mastering by Mark Wilder.

I'm not trying to start an argument here or anything but does it actually say there is "new" re-mastering on these sets???

[J.A.W.]

Phil Schaap was responsible for the production and mastering of the first edition of the Miles Davis/Gil Evans box and the 1997 Legacy edition of Sketches of Spain. He was not involved in the 2007 "50th Anniversary Legacy Edition" 2CD-set, which has a different, new mastering by Mark Wilder.

I'm not trying to start an argument here or anything but does it actually say there is "new" re-mastering on these sets???

Mark Wilder interview on the new mastering of the Kind of Blue Legacy Edition 2CD-set. I've read in an article that he had also newly remastered the 'Round About Midnight and Sketches of Spain Legacy Edition 2CD-sets, but I can't find it right now. Anyway, Phil Schaap's name is not mentioned in the mastering credits of the Sketches of Spain Legacy Edition 2CD-set, while it does appear among the mastering credits of the Miles Davis / Gil Evans boxed set.

Mark Wilder, Maria Triana and Woody Pornpakoski (and in a few cases Seth Foster) remastered almost the entire Miles Davis catalogue between 2001 and 2006, and those remasters were used for the now OOP 2006 Japanese mini-LP reissues in the SICP 12XX series and also for the 2007 Japanese hybrid SACD reissues and the later Japanese blu-spec versions. This was confirmed to me by CD Japan some time ago. The mastering credits can be found on the CD inserts and the dates on the obi strips. You don't have to take my word for it, of course

P.S. Forgot to add that Charles Mingus' Mingus Ah Um Legacy Edition 2CD-set was also newly mixed and mastered. According to the booklet Mark Wilder did the mixing from the original three-track tapes on an original Presto tube tape recorder.

Edited August 21, 2009 by J.A.W.

[CJ Shearn]

Hans, I have all the new 50th Anniversary Legacy editions of the Brubeck, Davis and Mingus, and from what I understand the mixes on those are the same as the late 90's versions. I still have the '97 "Time Out" from the "For All Time" box, and while I play the new Time Out b/c its simply easier to grab off the shelf, the mastering between that and the '97 version sounds pretty much the same to me. Keep in mind I'm using Audio Technica ATHM 40 FS studio monitor headphones, which are flat response through an Onkyo amp and Technics graphic EQ.

[Teasing the Korean]

Christ, I wish someone would remix "Mingus Ah Um" from the three-track AND PUT THE TRACK WITH THE BASS IN THE CENTER. That completely wrecks the listening experience for me on CD. Thank God I have the mono LP.

[ShowsOn]

I still have the '97 "Time Out" from the "For All Time" box, and while I play the new Time Out b/c its simply easier to grab off the shelf, the mastering between that and the '97 version sounds pretty much the same to me.

There is one important difference between the 1997 Time Out CD and the Legacy Edition version, the new version isn't encoded in HDCD. This means you don't need a HDCD player to hear the full dynamic range of the tapes on the new version. Before you would need an HDCD player to hear the full peak extension. This meant the old version played in a non-HDCD player sounds slightly peak limited compared to the new version. If you do have an HDCD player then they will both sound the same.

Christ, I wish someone would remix "Mingus Ah Um" from the three-track AND PUT THE TRACK WITH THE BASS IN THE CENTER. That completely wrecks the listening experience for me on CD. Thank God I have the mono LP.

Surely they are trying to be faithful to the original stereo LPs? I still think for these 50th Anniversary Editions they should've included both stereo and mono mixes.

[CJ Shearn]

thanks Shows On. Since everything is connected to my computer, windows media has HDCD compatibility.

[Cliff Englewood]

Phil Schaap was responsible for the production and mastering of the first edition of the Miles Davis/Gil Evans box and the 1997 Legacy edition of Sketches of Spain. He was not involved in the 2007 "50th Anniversary Legacy Edition" 2CD-set, which has a different, new mastering by Mark Wilder.

I'm not trying to start an argument here or anything but does it actually say there is "new" re-mastering on these sets???

Mark Wilder interview on the new mastering of the Kind of Blue Legacy Edition 2CD-set. I've read in an article that he had also newly remastered the 'Round About Midnight and Sketches of Spain Legacy Edition 2CD-sets, but I can't find it right now. Anyway, Phil Schaap's name is not mentioned in the mastering credits of the Sketches of Spain Legacy Edition 2CD-set, while it does appear among the mastering credits of the Miles Davis / Gil Evans boxed set.

Mark Wilder, Maria Triana and Woody Pornpakoski (and in a few cases Seth Foster) remastered almost the entire Miles Davis catalogue between 2001 and 2006, and those remasters were used for the now OOP 2006 Japanese mini-LP reissues in the SICP 12XX series and also for the 2007 Japanese hybrid SACD reissues and the later Japanese blu-spec versions. This was confirmed to me by CD Japan some time ago. The mastering credits can be found on the CD inserts and the dates on the obi strips. You don't have to take my word for it, of course

P.S. Forgot to add that Charles Mingus' Mingus Ah Um Legacy Edition 2CD-set was also newly mixed and mastered. According to the booklet Mark Wilder did the mixing from the original three-track tapes on an original Presto tube tape recorder.

Thanks for that, but on the late 90's versions (1998) of the Mingus material it says "Digitally remixed and remastered from the original 3-track tapes using an original Presto Tape Tube Recorder by Mark Wilder and Rob Schwarz at Sony Music Studios, NY", so I think I'm going to go with CJ Shearn here, that the mixes on these fancy new Legacy editions are the same as the late 90's versions. I just can't see a record company spending the money to re-re-master stuff these days.

Just my opinion though. :cool:

Edited August 21, 2009 by Cliff Englewood

[Teasing the Korean]

Surely they are trying to be faithful to the original stereo LPs? I still think for these 50th Anniversary Editions they should've included both stereo and mono mixes.

I hear that viewpoint often with regard to re-mixing early stereo. I think it's much more important to be faithful to the spirit of the music than it is to be faithful to a 50-year-old bad decision made by an ill-informed engineer. Recreating questionable stereo mixes serves the legacies of neither the artist nor the producer. IMHO.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Teasing the Korean

[J.A.W.]

Phil Schaap was responsible for the production and mastering of the first edition of the Miles Davis/Gil Evans box and the 1997 Legacy edition of Sketches of Spain. He was not involved in the 2007 "50th Anniversary Legacy Edition" 2CD-set, which has a different, new mastering by Mark Wilder.

I'm not trying to start an argument here or anything but does it actually say there is "new" re-mastering on these sets???

Mark Wilder interview on the new mastering of the Kind of Blue Legacy Edition 2CD-set. I've read in an article that he had also newly remastered the 'Round About Midnight and Sketches of Spain Legacy Edition 2CD-sets, but I can't find it right now. Anyway, Phil Schaap's name is not mentioned in the mastering credits of the Sketches of Spain Legacy Edition 2CD-set, while it does appear among the mastering credits of the Miles Davis / Gil Evans boxed set.

Mark Wilder, Maria Triana and Woody Pornpakoski (and in a few cases Seth Foster) remastered almost the entire Miles Davis catalogue between 2001 and 2006, and those remasters were used for the now OOP 2006 Japanese mini-LP reissues in the SICP 12XX series and also for the 2007 Japanese hybrid SACD reissues and the later Japanese blu-spec versions. This was confirmed to me by CD Japan some time ago. The mastering credits can be found on the CD inserts and the dates on the obi strips. You don't have to take my word for it, of course

P.S. Forgot to add that Charles Mingus' Mingus Ah Um Legacy Edition 2CD-set was also newly mixed and mastered. According to the booklet Mark Wilder did the mixing from the original three-track tapes on an original Presto tube tape recorder.

Thanks for that, but on the late 90's versions (1998) of the Mingus material it says "Digitally remixed and remastered from the original 3-track tapes using an original Presto Tape Tube Recorder by Mark Wilder and Rob Schwarz at Sony Music Studios, NY", so I think I'm going to go with CJ Shearn here, that the mixes on these fancy new Legacy editions are the same as the late 90's versions. I just can't see a record company spending the money to re-re-master stuff these days.

Just my opinion though. :cool:

Maybe the mixes are the same as on the late 1990s Legacy reissues, but that does not necessarily mean that the masterings are the same. Anyway, I do not have either the Miles Davis / Gil Evans box (sold that one ages ago), or the Sketches of Spain Legacy Edition 2CD-set, so I can't compare them. Has anyone compared these two releases, or at least the tracks that both releases have in common?

As for a record company spending the money to re-remaster stuff, Sony did just that when almost the entire Miles Davis Columbia catalogue was remastered again between 2001 and 2006, as noted in my earlier post.

Edited August 21, 2009 by J.A.W.

[jazzbo]

I have all the Legacy editions and the box sets, and some of the single editions from the 90s and early 2000s. I've done some comparisons and the sound is different, improved. As Hans notes that doesn't have to mean the mixes are significantly different, but there are tonal balance differences; I prefer the newer editions.

Columbia/Sony has pretty consistently spent the money to remaster recordings for new release; they seem to understand that this is one reason part of the market buys these new editions, and I think they'd be a less successful program if they did not.

The Btubeck Newport disc has both great music and great sound (especially for Newport recordings).

Edited August 21, 2009 by jazzbo

[J.A.W.]

Sketches of Spain, 50th Anniversary Legacy Edition 2CD-set - audio remasterer: Mark Wilder. Edited August 21, 2009 by J.A.W.

[ShowsOn]

Surely they are trying to be faithful to the original stereo LPs? I still think for these 50th Anniversary Editions they should've included both stereo and mono mixes.

I hear that viewpoint often with regard to re-mixing early stereo. I think it's much more important to be faithful to the spirit of the music than it is to be faithful to a 50-year-old bad decision made by an ill-informed engineer.

I disagree that they were bad or ill-informed decisions. Exaggerated channel separation was standard procedure for stereo mixing during that period, and it wasn't simply limited to music. If you listen to stereo soundtracks in 1950s films (especially those made in CinemaScope) you will hear extreme separation of the sound (music, sound effects and dialogue) as well. Mixing the sound that way was done by for a reason - to accentuate and exaggerate the new technology. Isn't the way the music was recorded and mixed originally part of the "spirit of the music"? Or do we impose newer mixing standards on the music so we can pretend it was made a decade later?

I don't understand why recordings of that period should conform to contemporary mixing methods. Just as I don't think films of that period should be changed (more edits, shaky camera work perhaps) to make them look and sound more like contemporary films.

If you don't like the original stereo mix, you can always find buy an original mono LP.

[Teasing the Korean]

If you don't like the original stereo mix, you can always find buy an original mono LP.

But that's just it - mono was the standard format of the time; stereo was experimental. It was a new technology. Some engineers got it right away, others didn't.

Re-mixing early stereo to provide the punch and presence of the mono versions is closer to honoring the producers' and arists' original intent; it is the opposite of revisionist. IMHO.

EDIT: I should add here that I am talking only about "bad stereo," such as that on "Mingus Ah Um." I think that Columbia for the most part did a very good job with stereo on Miles, Monk and Brubeck records.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Teasing the Korean

[J.A.W.]

Totally off-topic, but I wish Sony would redo Duke Ellington at Newport'56 (Complete) in their Legacy Edition 2CD-series, with all Phil Schaap artefacts removed and mastered by Mark Wilder

[Teasing the Korean]

Bumping up this thread. I just found the 2-disc version for a great price. Listened to about half of disc one and it sounds great. Looking forward to all the bonus stuff.