swing stars in the '50s & 60s

[BillF]

Yes, trad was very much a British phenomenon and had a major youth audience. The big names were Barber, Bilk and Ball. It also had a closely related cousin in the form of skiffle, an offshoot from the Barber band.

There was also music of this sort in the US, even if it wasn't called trad. The names that come to mind are Bob Scobey, Lu Watters and the Firehouse Five. And, of course, Ory was still playing, not to mention the revival of George Lewis (new set of teeth, etc.) 

You'll recognize that, as a member of the opposite "modernist" camp, I viewed all this with a touch of hostility and ridicule, though I've long since grown out of that juvenile stance.

[Rabshakeh]

1 hour ago, BillF said:

Yes, trad was very much a British phenomenon and had a major youth audience. The big names were Barber, Bilk and Ball. It also had a closely related cousin in the form of skiffle, an offshoot from the Barber band.

There was also music of this sort in the US, even if it wasn't called trad. The names that come to mind are Bob Scobey, Lu Watters and the Firehouse Five. And, of course, Ory was still playing, not to mention the revival of George Lewis (new set of teeth, etc.) 

You'll recognize that, as a member of the opposite "modernist" camp, I viewed all this with a touch of hostility and ridicule, though I've long since grown out of that juvenile stance.

I have an Acker Bilk record (that I love) that my wife bought at random. Every time anyone comes to my house and looks at my collection, that's the record that they end up seizing upon with a wrinkled nose. That's despite a two generations' remove from Trads popularity. 

"Ugh, Trad. This stuff is so awful", my friend's mum (fron North London) once remarked. 

My parents and family only came to the UK in 69-73 and seem wholly unaware of the existence of Trad. As mentioned, they seemed to slice the jazz pie into Progressive (Erroll Garner, Charlie Parker, Sonny Rollins and MJQ) and older jazz (Oscar Peterson, etc). That terminology is the same for my dad (a very casual jazz fan) and my (slightly older) aunts and uncles, who were proper jazz toting South African Communist Party members (SA's beatnik equivalents). The older jazz was something to be disclaimed, although they didn't have the raw anger at its existence that the older Londoners I know have for Trad.

Anyway, I’m really enjoying this thread. I was brought up with bop and have always been into the vanguard stuff, but this post 1945 swing music is new to me. There are some wonderful records mentioned.

The Budd Johnson and Earl Hines stuff really is cooking my brains.

It’s particularly interesting coming to it after hearing soul jazz and new thing artists like Shepp and Ayler. There’s a very strong link there, which I suspect would have been obvious to someone experiencing the development of the music in order.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Rabshakeh

[Big Beat Steve]

4 hours ago, BillF said:

Yes, trad was very much a British phenomenon and had a major youth audience. The big names were Barber, Bilk and Ball. It also had a closely related cousin in the form of skiffle, an offshoot from the Barber band.

You'll recognize that, as a member of the opposite "modernist" camp, I viewed all this with a touch of hostility and ridicule, though I've long since grown out of that juvenile stance.

I remember another forumist (probably not much younger than you) who once described this same maturing and mellowing process with a dose of self-mockery as follows: "Of course I was so much older then!"

BTW, as for "Trad" as a British phenomenon, of ocurse the term "Trad" was very British ("It's Trad, Dad!" ) but I'd venture to say that elsewhere in Europe the domestic oldtime/revival jazz scene had its popularity too, e.g. Sweden and Germany. And in France it not only was popular and had a youth audience (before R'n'R and the "ye-ye" era of the very early 60s really caught on) but also led to a real schism between moldy figs and modernists on the jazz scene - not unlike in the US 10 years or so before. Of course France had Sidney Bechet as the towering master of them all who pulled along an entire gang of bands and their followers. Including various excesses by the "fan scene", such as notoriously unruly behavior by certain elements at concerts of the "opposite" camp and all ...

Edited March 5, 2022 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

Al Sears

[BillF]

2 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

I remember another forumist (probably not much younger than you) who once described this same maturing and mellowing process with a dose of self-mockery as follows: "Of course I was so much older then!"

 

When I told a student of mine that I, too, had passed an examination in History when I was her age, she retorted, "But there was far less of it then". 

 

[Rabshakeh]

Are there any Roy Eldridge or Don Byas LPs from this period that anyone really enjoys, by the way? 

[BillF]

32 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Are there any Roy Eldridge or Don Byas LPs from this period that anyone really enjoys, by the way? 

Although Eldridge was a star, along with Anita O'Day, in the Gene Krupa Orchestra in the 40s and was still working for Norman Granz in the 70s, my favourite Eldridge period is the 50s when he can be heard in a variety of contexts, for example:

Edited March 6, 2022 by BillF

[Larry Kart]

1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said:

Are there any Roy Eldridge or Don Byas LPs from this period that anyone really enj0 oys, by the way? 

Roy's Clef quartet album "Little Jazz" is a gem, and he plays great (as does everyone) on Lester Young's "Jazz Giants '56." Likewise on a good portion of a two-disc Granz label Benny Carter compilation "The Urbane Sessions." Byas was in France for the most part at that time. I can recommend "Don Byas on Blue Star" (EmArcy) and the three-disc "Don Byas Quartet, The Complete 1946-54 Recordings" (Solid Jazz), if they still can be found. On the latter set there is a "Laura" to die for.

 

From "Little Jazz":  (Don't know what's with that "Miles Ahead" tag).

 

[JSngry]

 

Misposted this in an incorrect thread, but yeah, Lionel Hampton!

To which was given this response:

57 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

Was that Ronnie Cuber?

To which I replied:

30 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Yep!

Apparently this solo has entered the real of "legendary" in some quarters, in spite of it never having been released on anything but VHS and then on online video platforms. It's been transcribed for online consumption and shit like that.

Usually I give stuff like that a rolleyes, but damn, that was good!

Oh crap, those were supposed to go on the swing stars thread....ugh....sorry...

So there.

[Larry Kart]

17 minutes ago, JSngry said:

 

Misposted this in an incorrect thread, but yeah, Lionel Hampton!

To which was given this response:

To which I replied:

 

So there.

A very meaty solo for that "Flying Home" situation.

[JSngry]

Quite. Cuber was coming to play every time out back, then, it seems, be it with Maynard Ferguson or Lionel Hampton or George benson or Lonnie Smith or Eddie Palmieri, jsut everybody, didn't matter.

[Gheorghe]

8 hours ago, BillF said:

Although Eldridge was a star, along with Anita O'Day, in the Gene Krupa Orchestra in the 40s and was still working for Norman Granz in the 70s, my favourite Eldridge period is the 50s when he can be heard in a variety of contexts, for example:

This Newport rebels is really fantastic. Roy Eldrige was 10000´s of miles ahead of his time. He could play with all the "then" modernists.....

In my case, in the 60´s I was too young to hear Swing Stars. There were some left in the 70´s. I think Count Basie Orchestra once performed with Frank Sinatra. I missed that. It´s even possible that Benny Goodman had played in Viena in the 70´s. I saw a Lionel Hampton Big band somewhere in the late 70´s it must have been a festival, and there also played some Hampton Alumni from the old days. I think Arnett Cobb was among them. Oh yeah, I saw Arnett Cobb once at the Jazzland. He moved on cruthes but  really played some great swing saxophone, and though he sure was ill, he still enjoyed some good glasses of whisky and cigarettes.... a real strong Texas man....
And sure, I saw Woody Herman once in 1979 with the Herd and once in 1985, this time with an Allstar Band of mostly Concorde Artists.....

So I think that´s all the artists that was still alive and could be heard then.....

[BillF]

2 minutes ago, Gheorghe said:

This Newport rebels is really fantastic. Roy Eldrige was 10000´s of miles ahead of his time. He could play with all the "then" modernists.....

In my case, in the 60´s I was too young to hear Swing Stars. There were some left in the 70´s. I think Count Basie Orchestra once performed with Frank Sinatra. I missed that. It´s even possible that Benny Goodman had played in Viena in the 70´s. I saw a Lionel Hampton Big band somewhere in the late 70´s it must have been a festival, and there also played some Hampton Alumni from the old days. I think Arnett Cobb was among them. Oh yeah, I saw Arnett Cobb once at the Jazzland. He moved on cruthes but  really played some great swing saxophone, and though he sure was ill, he still enjoyed some good glasses of whisky and cigarettes.... a real strong Texas man....
And sure, I saw Woody Herman once in 1979 with the Herd and once in 1985, this time with an Allstar Band of mostly Concorde Artists.....

So I think that´s all the artists that was still alive and could be heard then.....

Yes, the Free Trade Hall in Manchester was very keen on big bands in that era. It was there that I saw Ellington, Basie, Lionel Hampton and Woody Herman, not to mention more modern outfits like Gil Evans, Thad Jones/Mel Lewis and Clarke Boland.

[JSngry]

Speaking of Lionel Hampton...Arnett Cobb and Illinois Jacquet. Only got stronger as the years passed. playing wise.

And not-coincidentally, both were well-served by both the Prestige )although at different times) and Black & Blue.labels.

And also by Milt Buckner!

[Rabshakeh]

10 hours ago, JSngry said:

Speaking of Lionel Hampton...Arnett Cobb and Illinois Jacquet. Only got stronger as the years passed. playing wise.

And not-coincidentally, both were well-served by both the Prestige )although at different times) and Black & Blue.labels.

And also by Milt Buckner!

I think my favourites are these: 

Illinois Jacquet - Bottoms Up

and 

Arnett Cobb - Blow, Arnett Blow

 

I guess the Jacques/Cobbs and the Lockjaws/Griffins are close cousins of the musicians in this thread to the extent that it might make more sense to see them as the same thing, perhaps targeted at different age groups.

Thank you everyone for the Byas and Eldridge recommendations too.

[Big Beat Steve]

1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said:

I guess the Jacques/Cobbs and the Lockjaws/Griffins are close cousins of the musicians in this thread to the extent that it might make more sense to see them as the same thing, perhaps targeted at different age groups.

Thank you everyone for the Byas and Eldridge recommendations too.

I think basically they are. The main differences IMO are that
1) they came onto the Swing scene later than the typical "elder statesmen" of Mainstream jazz (Jacquet/Cobb) or AFTER the Swing era (Davis/Griffin), and
2) overall they were stylistically somewhat more modern than the typical Mainstream musicians, including the younger ones such as Ruby Braff,
3) they had their own thing going in modern jazz and so the jazz scribes probably felt far less need to file them under the "Mainstream" tag of (no doubt) unjustly neglected swing-era jazzmen who still had a lot to say.
But stylistic boundaries never were that rigid anyway so it is pointless to categorize excessively.

 

[Rabshakeh]

They all regularly play on each others' records: no surprise to see Lockjaw, Jacquet and Ben Webster getting co billing.

[JSngry]

Griffin is another one that came out of the Lionel Hampton band!

All the more reason for a Hampton Decca Mosaic, imo.

The records of both Jacquet & Cobb on Black & Blue put them in a much more "direct" settings than did the Prestige records (all of which are great, of course), but once Milt Buckner gets added to ANYBODY's mix, hey, that changes the recipe automatically.

[Rabshakeh]

3 minutes ago, JSngry said:

The records of both Jacquet & Cobb on Black & Blue put them in a much more "direct" settings than did the Prestige records (all of which are great, of course), but once Milt Buckner gets added to ANYBODY's mix, hey, that changes the recipe automatically.

Which ones in particular?

[JSngry]

This is as good a place as any to start:

But really, so much more...

[jazzbo]

This thread makes me realize how much I treasure the Vanguard "Jazz Showcase" material. Wow. Awesome music, great recordings.

[Dub Modal]

51 minutes ago, JSngry said:

This is as good a place as any to start:

But really, so much more...

Listening to the Jacquet Black & Blue album Jacquet's Street this morning and loving it. Anyone know who's doing all the grunting and hollering on that recording? Is it Oliver Jackson? 

Was this the Black & Blue label that Mosaic was doing a set of? 

50 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

This thread makes me realize how much I treasure the Vanguard "Jazz Showcase" material. Wow. Awesome music, great recordings.

Indeed. I have and love a couple of those Basie Bunch CDs and they're excellent. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Dub Modal

[Rabshakeh]

52 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

This thread makes me realize how much I treasure the Vanguard "Jazz Showcase" material. Wow. Awesome music, great recordings.

Are there any that stand out to you? I don't know the material at all.

54 minutes ago, JSngry said:

This is as good a place as any to start:

But really, so much more...

Thank you.

[jazzbo]

R, I really like them all, but the Mel Powell and the Jimmy Rushing and the Vic Dickersons are standouts to me.

[JSngry]

5 minutes ago, Dub Modal said:

Listening to the Jacquet Black & Blue album Jacquet's Street this morning and loving it. Anyone know who's doing all the grunting and hollering on that recording? Is it Oliver Jackson? 

Was this the Black & Blue label that Mosaic was doing a set of? 

That could easily be Milt Buckner. He was not one to be silent!

The proposed Mosaic is the Black & White label, totally different time/place, but full of interesting material. Here's hoping it makes it to market.

Besides this LP cover, that Jacquet record has seen two different CD issues!

It's not the most consistently organized catalo, let's put it that way.