swing stars in the '50s & 60s

[Shrdlu]

Good to see this twice bumped.

This genre of jazz is always great to hear, especially when contrasted with a lot of harsh honking and screeching in 1960s "avant garde" stuff.

I was delighted to be able to grab the Buck Clayton Jam Session set in its last minutes. 

Whom did you see live/meet? I met Buck Clayton, Eddie Condon, Bud Freeman and Cat Anderson. I saw, live, all of them, plus Pee Wee Russell, Louis Armstrong's classic 1956 All Stars, the 1969 Ellington lineup and Teddy Wilson. Teddy came to Jo' burg in about 1974, when I was living there; he played with a local bassist and drummer.

[JSngry]

  On 3/3/2022 at 4:35 PM, Big Beat Steve said:

Yes, I'd also say that the term in fact originated in the UK (through Stanley Dance) and spread form there.

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per Dance: https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/obituary-stanley-dance-1077797.html

Primarily it is a reference term for the vast body of jazz that was at one time in some danger of losing its identity. Practically it is applied to the jazz idiom which developed between the heyday of King Oliver and Jelly Roll Morton on the one hand and that of Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie on the other.

I wish I could get confirmation of exactly where Dance first published this notion, because it took hold, like, immediately, it seems. And with good reason, perhaps, since it was a very real thing.

Stanley Dance was a very interesting fellow, imo...

[Jim Duckworth]

I enjoy this one-but I really like Jess Stacy (and Allen Reuss is a favorite).

 

[Rabshakeh]

Does anyone have any ideas of how popular this music was in comparison to revival/Dixieland and bop influenced styles?

I hadn't realised that Dance was a Brit.

[BillF]

In the final years of the 50s the names used in the UK, and particularly in record stores, for different sorts of jazz were Trad(itional), Mainstream and Modern. There was also Progressive which seemed to consist largely of Stan Kenton and Shorty Rogers.

There were also huge sales of albums of Bach with a jazz rhythm section, so much so that stores had a section just for this. The names Jazz Sebastain Bach and the Swingle Singers come to mind.

  On 3/4/2022 at 11:55 AM, Rabshakeh said:

 

I hadn't realised that Dance was a Brit.

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He certainly was. Liverpool jazz humorist Steve Voce used to ask "Can Stanley dance?" as well as "Is Jutta hip?"

Edited March 4, 2022 by BillF

[sidewinder]

  On 3/4/2022 at 1:00 PM, BillF said:

In the final years of the 50s the names used in the UK, and particularly in record stores, for different sorts of jazz were Trad(itional), Mainstream and Modern. There was also Progressive which seemed to consist largely of Stan Kenton ad Shorty Rogers.

There were also huge sales of albums of Bach with a jazz rhythm section, so much so that stores had a section just for this. The names Jazz Sebastain Bach and the Swingle Singers come to mind.

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Jacques Lousier Trio massive over here and on TV quite a bit, as were the Swingle Singers.

With regard to Mainstream, I can recall record stores with ‘Mainstream Jazz’ markings/dividers in the record racks. Clark Terry, Harry Edison and Buddy Tate come immediately to mind when thinking of that style. Scott Hamilton and Ruby Braff as well.

Edited March 4, 2022 by sidewinder

[BillF]

  On 3/4/2022 at 1:24 PM, sidewinder said:

Jacques Lousier Trio massive over here and on TV quite a bit, as were the Swingle Singers.

With regard to Mainstream, I can recall record stores with ‘Mainstream Jazz’ markings/dividers in the record racks. 

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Yes, I forgot about Loussier, no doubt because I never thought for a moment of buying one of his albums. Mind you, I dug the real J S Bach more in those days than I do now.

P.S. Is your misspelling "lousier" deliberate?

[sidewinder]

  On 3/4/2022 at 1:27 PM, BillF said:

P.S. Is your misspelling "lousier" deliberate?

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Of course not.

Of particular note concerning that trio from the jazz perspective was the presence of Pierre Michelot on bass. They also had a massive TV advert ‘hit’ with the Hamlet Cigar ads.

[BillF]

  On 3/4/2022 at 1:27 PM, BillF said:

 

P.S. Is your misspelling "lousier" deliberate?

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I think it should be. 

[Rabshakeh]

  On 3/4/2022 at 1:24 PM, sidewinder said:

With regard to Mainstream, I can recall record stores with ‘Mainstream Jazz’ markings/dividers in the record racks. Clark Terry, Harry Edison and Buddy Tate come immediately to mind when thinking of that style. Scott Hamilton and Ruby Braff as well.

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Sorry to ask another question: did the shops have separate"Swing" sections too?

[Dub Modal]

Despite the "Orchestra" included in the title, this is actually small group swing:

 

 

[Rabshakeh]

  On 3/4/2022 at 2:17 PM, Dub Modal said:

Despite the "Orchestra" included in the title, this is actually small group swing:

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I like the alternative title Benny Carter Plays Pretty.

[BillF]

  On 3/4/2022 at 1:42 PM, Rabshakeh said:

Sorry to ask another question: did the shops have separate"Swing" sections too?

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Not then. Perhaps at an earlier date.

  On 3/4/2022 at 1:24 PM, sidewinder said:

 

With regard to Mainstream, I can recall record stores with ‘Mainstream Jazz’ markings/dividers in the record racks. Clark Terry, Harry Edison and Buddy Tate come immediately to mind when thinking of that style. Scott Hamilton and Ruby Braff as well.

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In the era I'm talking about, Scott Hamilton was aged 5.

[medjuck]

When I first started listening to jazz in the early '60s I asked a friend what "mainstream" meant and he said "mainly people who once played with Basie."

[BillF]

  On 3/4/2022 at 4:49 PM, medjuck said:

When I first started listening to jazz in the early '60s I asked a friend what "mainstream" meant and he said "mainly people who once played with Basie."

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Sounds like a pretty good answer!

[JSngry]

and to that end, one beginning an exploration of this particular area of music can do far worse than to undertake a basic survey of the "Old Testament" Basie band, and associated small group recordings. SO much delight to be had there!

[BillF]

  On 3/4/2022 at 5:57 PM, JSngry said:

and to that end, one beginning an exploration of this particular area of music can do far worse than to undertake a basic survey of the "Old Testament" Basie band, and associated small group recordings. SO much delight to be had there!

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Yes, I started with these.  UK editions, of course:

 

 

[gmonahan]

The renewal of this thread caused me to get out that Felsted box and listen to it. Lovely version of "My One and Only Love" by Hawk on disc 5. Thanks for the reminder!

 

 

 

gregmo

[GA Russell]

  On 3/4/2022 at 1:00 PM, BillF said:

In the final years of the 50s the names used in the UK, and particularly in record stores, for different sorts of jazz were Trad(itional), Mainstream and Modern. There was also Progressive which seemed to consist largely of Stan Kenton and Shorty Rogers.

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Bill, et al., can you please name some American musicians who were called trad?

In the '60s I heard the term "progressive jazz" quite a bit.  It was only later that I saw it linked primarily to Kenton.

[Larry Kart]

  On 3/5/2022 at 1:02 AM, GA Russell said:

Bill, et al., can you please name some American musicians who were called trad?

In the '60s I heard the term "progressive jazz" quite a bit.  It was only later that I saw it linked primarily to Kenton.

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Lu Watters, Turk Murphy and skads more, including many who were a lot better than Watters and Murphy. As opposed to funny hat Dixieland -- yeesh -- these were musicians who were inspired by and fairly often attempted to conscientiously emulate the music and the players of the'20s and early '30s, sometimes with of sucesss and sometimes even giving rise to individual music of much value. As it happens there was a tremendous burgeoning of such music in Australia in the '40s and 50's (see the late Dave Dallwitz and the Bell Brothers  et al.) and there is a good deal of that at foot right now in France (see Les Petit Jazz Band, led by cornetist Jean Pierre Morel). More a composer and bandleader than a player (he was a pianist), Dallwitz produced a body of quite individual work that can stand beside that of Jelly Roll Morton.

[medjuck]

  On 3/5/2022 at 1:22 AM, Larry Kart said:

Lu Watters, Turk Murphy and skads more, including many who were a lot better than Watters and Murphy. As opposed to funny hat Dixieland -- yeesh -- these were musicians who were inspired by and fairly often attempted to conscientiously emulate the music and the players of the'20s and early '30s, sometimes with of sucesss and sometimes even giving rise to individual music of much value. As it happens there was a tremendous burgeoning of such music in Australia in the '40s and 50's (see the late Dave Dallwitz and the Bell Brothers  et al.) and there is a good deal of that at foot right now in France (see Les Petit Jazz Band, led by cornetist Jean Pierre Morel). More a composer and bandleader than a player (he was a pianist), Dallwitz produced a body of quite individual work that can stand beside that of Jelly Roll Morton.

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But did they use the name "trad"?  I think of the term as being British. (BTW Richard Lester's first feature film was called "It's Trad Dad", but given a different title in the US.   It's worth searching out for the cinematography if not the music.) 

[GA Russell]

  On 3/5/2022 at 1:22 AM, Larry Kart said:

Lu Watters, Turk Murphy and skads more, including many who were a lot better than Watters and Murphy. As opposed to funny hat Dixieland -- yeesh -- these were musicians who were inspired by and fairly often attempted to conscientiously emulate the music and the players of the'20s and early '30s, sometimes with of sucesss and sometimes even giving rise to individual music of much value. As it happens there was a tremendous burgeoning of such music in Australia in the '40s and 50's (see the late Dave Dallwitz and the Bell Brothers  et al.) and there is a good deal of that at foot right now in France (see Les Petit Jazz Band, led by cornetist Jean Pierre Morel). More a composer and bandleader than a player (he was a pianist), Dallwitz produced a body of quite individual work that can stand beside that of Jelly Roll Morton.

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Thanks, Larry!

For all the references I've seen to trad jazz, I gather that it was a bigger deal in England than in the US.  Is that right?

Edited March 5, 2022 by GA Russell

[AllenLowe]

  On 3/5/2022 at 1:22 AM, Larry Kart said:

Lu Watters, Turk Murphy and skads more, including many who were a lot better than Watters and Murphy. As opposed to funny hat Dixieland -- yeesh -- these were musicians who were inspired by and fairly often attempted to conscientiously emulate the music and the players of the'20s and early '30s, sometimes with of sucesss and sometimes even giving rise to individual music of much value. As it happens there was a tremendous burgeoning of such music in Australia in the '40s and 50's (see the late Dave Dallwitz and the Bell Brothers  et al.) and there is a good deal of that at foot right now in France (see Les Petit Jazz Band, led by cornetist Jean Pierre Morel). More a composer and bandleader than a player (he was a pianist), Dallwitz produced a body of quite individual work that can stand beside that of Jelly Roll Morton.

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Larry; he is not exactly in this vein, but I was wondering if you know the work of Jon-Erik Kellso? Great trumpet/cornetist, and an amazing plunger player. His groups have a Condon-ite feel, roughly speaking.

[Larry Kart]

I've heard some Kellso; he's a good one. Not really trad though.

  On 3/5/2022 at 2:21 AM, GA Russell said:

Thanks, Larry!

For all the references I seen to trad jazz, I gather that it was a bigger deal in England than in the US.  Is that right?

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Maybe so, but there were a good many trad players around Chicago at one time. It was a not uncomplicated phenomenon, as much a matter of attitude/sensibility as anything else.

[Rabshakeh]

I wasn’t there are the time, and will defer to those that were, but my understanding is that Trad was a big deal here as a form of popular music and that it actually made it to commercial radio and the charts. I think it was less real New Orleans revival and more a postwar mulch of pre-rock and roll Americana: part dixieland, part oldies tea dance, part US roots music, part goofy pop. For whatever reason, it seems, to me, to carry similar associations in the minds of my elders to country music in the US - music for older, provincial reactionaries who were very much not hip, to be opposed at all costs. But that might be after the fact exaggeration.