False Dawns in Hi-Fi

[Big Beat Steve]

There were some 16 2/3 LPs on Prestige IIRC.

For jazz fans, apart from about 5 Prestige 16 rpms (each of them combining 2 LP's worth of material) in the late 50s there were two French Vogues with Sidney Bechet recordings at the same time but that was about it AFAIK.

In addition to spoken word recordings (religious, etc.) at 16 rpm, there also seem to have been a good many kids' records at that speed (if internet auctions are anything to go by ).

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

has anyone here ever seen/heard the prestige 16 2/3 rpms?

[Big Beat Steve]

Ray's Jazz Shop in London (which happened to have some in stock at the time I passed by there in the late 90s) described the items in this section of their record bins as "Rare As Rocking Horse Manure!"and the discs were priced accordingly. Snapped up one of them (the one feat. George Wallington) on eBay a couple of years ago at a decent price but otherwise those I've seen and watched there usually went for 100+ $. Too much for my wallet.

Fidelity of those 16rpms was said to have been better than on the corresponding 33rpm LPs but I cannot really judge. Those of my record players that will still play 16 rpm aren't the highest of fi.

[sidewinder]

"Rare As Rocking Horse Manure!"

I remember the 'Rare as Hen's Teeth' section of their racks but never the 'Rocking Horse' one. Picked up the Hazel Scott 'Relaxed Piano Moods' Debut 10" LP out of that selection on one occasion.

[Niko]

here's a list http://www.jazzdisco.org/prestige-records/...es/album-index/

didn't get until now (when i read "PRLP 16-6 Pepper Adams/Cecil Payne/Julius Watkins/Dave Amram - Modern Jazz Survey - Baritones And French Horns") that what held the two sides of PRLP 16-6 together thematically was that an "unusual" instrument appears twice... didn't know that both sides were originally co-led (i mean, the second half is still co-led but by curtis fuller and hampton hawes... looks almost like intentional confusion)

[sidewinder]

Talking about false dawns in Hi-Fi, didn't SABA in Germany do an early tape-based in-car machine that you bolted between the driver and passenger seat back in the 1960s. There's a brief mention of it in the 'Beyond The Black Forest' DVD.

[Jazzmoose]

Fidelity of those 16rpms was said to have been better than on the corresponding 33rpm LPs but I cannot really judge. Those of my record players that will still play 16 rpm aren't the highest of fi.

I don't understand how that can be; have I been confused all these years in my belief that, all things being equal, the faster the better, like in tape? Or is it just a case of all things not being equal?

[Big Beat Steve]

Fidelity of those 16rpms was said to have been better than on the corresponding 33rpm LPs but I cannot really judge. Those of my record players that will still play 16 rpm aren't the highest of fi.

I don't understand how that can be; have I been confused all these years in my belief that, all things being equal, the faster the better, like in tape? Or is it just a case of all things not being equal?

I don't know; I just summarized what those who promoted that speed said in contemporary media.

I have my doubts too.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Big Beat Steve

[Claude]

That's correct, and that why slow recording/playback speed (for records or tape) was generally only used for niche products for which playing time was more important than fidelity (background music, non-musical voice recordings)

A number of recordings were pressed at 16⅔ rpm (usually a 7-inch disc, visually identical to a 45 rpm single). Peter Goldmark, the man who developed the 33⅓ rpm record, developed the Highway Hi-Fi 16⅔ rpm record to be played in Chrysler automobiles, but poor performance of the system and weak implementation by Chrysler and Columbia led to the demise of the 16⅔ rpm records. Subsequently, the 16⅔ rpm speed was used for radio transcription discs or narrated publications for the blind and visually impaired, and were never widely commercially available, although it was common to see new turntable models with a 16 rpm speed setting produced as late as the 1970s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramophone_record

[porcy62]

...DAT and DCC should not be mentionned together. DAT was a highly successful format on the professional studio market (as well as a backup medium for computer data), while Philips' DCC failed completely (direct competitor to Sony's Minidisc which was was much more advanced, being a disc format.

DAT was indeed successful in professional studios and in broadcast operations. I recorded a lot of music using DAT machines - both in-studio and on-location - when I was at WCFE-FM, Mountain-Lake Public Radio in the early to mid-1990s. I don't recall the brand or model of the DAT recorders we had, but they were far from foolproof. In fact, they were downright squirrelly little monsters.

Not in my experience. I had a portable Tascam, (two channels, XLR inputs and digital output), that never failed. I used it both on location and in studio and my locations were rough stuff as I filmed naturalistic documentaries. The only problem was the duration of the battery, that I solved buying three packs. Though the old analog Nagra was superior in term of engineering, solidity and sound quality, the DAT was great in term of facility: lightweight and cheaper. And those Nagra's reels were an hell to carry and to preserve and to mount and unmount, compared to the small DAT cassettes, expecially if you are on a Zodiac recording whales' breath.

Edited August 5, 2009 by porcy62

[sidewinder]

expecially if you are on a Zodiac recording whales' breath.

Wow ! For real?

The late Basil Kirchin used Nagras for his 'Worlds Within Worlds' recordings, which mixed jazz improvisation, Swiss autistic children and wildlife/insects etc. recorded at low speed. I believe that the Nagra was found to be essential for these recordings.

[porcy62]

expecially if you are on a Zodiac recording whales' breath.

Wow ! For real?

Actually we weren't allowed being so close to whale, according to enviromentalist/animalist organizations (and to common sense I'd add), but we were filming them.

In the shot the cameraman was diving at that very moment, I was the camera assistant.

Edited August 5, 2009 by porcy62

[sidewinder]

Cool !

Nearest I got to a whale was when a killer whale and her pup went right under my dive boat off of the Canadian West Coast. Also on that coast I snorkeled with a pack of Pacific white-sided dolphins who came at me from all angles with sonar clicking like crazy - dozens of them. Got both of those occasions on VHS film.

Anyway, back to hi-fi...

Edited August 5, 2009 by sidewinder

[tjluke68]

Saw the RCA 45 Dashboard Record Player and was really intrigued by this. Guess it didn't last long, plus not sure if it was skippy.

Here's a pic - RCA Under Dash Record Player

Edited August 5, 2009 by tjluke68

[Guest Bill Barton]

a) The 8 Track cartridge - surely the ugliest innovation of all time!

I did a year or so of college radio in 1985. I was surprised to discover that 8 tracks were still being used, though not for music. Our 30 second public service announcements (or those we didn't read) were on 8 track.

Those were called "carts" and were played on a "cart deck". I may be wrong but I am fairly certain that while there were superficial similarities, these were not true "8 Track cartridges"...

You're absolutely correct there, Dan. Carts and 8-tracks were very different animals. The only real similarity is that now they're both obsolete.

Well I was pretty baked much of the time. It was college radio after all...

I can relate...

[Guest Bill Barton]

...DAT and DCC should not be mentionned together. DAT was a highly successful format on the professional studio market (as well as a backup medium for computer data), while Philips' DCC failed completely (direct competitor to Sony's Minidisc which was was much more advanced, being a disc format.

DAT was indeed successful in professional studios and in broadcast operations. I recorded a lot of music using DAT machines - both in-studio and on-location - when I was at WCFE-FM, Mountain-Lake Public Radio in the early to mid-1990s. I don't recall the brand or model of the DAT recorders we had, but they were far from foolproof. In fact, they were downright squirrelly little monsters.

Not in my experience. I had a portable Tascam, (two channels, XLR inputs and digital output), that never failed. I used it both on location and in studio and my locations were rough stuff as I filmed naturalistic documentaries. The only problem was the duration of the battery, that I solved buying three packs. Though the old analog Nagra was superior in term of engineering, solidity and sound quality, the DAT was great in term of facility: lightweight and cheaper. And those Nagra's reels were an hell to carry and to preserve and to mount and unmount, compared to the small DAT cassettes, expecially if you are on a Zodiac recording whales' breath.

I surely do wish that I could remember what brand/model of DAT recorders we had... They definitely weren't Tascams. Sounds like they should have been!

[Quincy]

In addition to spoken word recordings (religious, etc.) at 16 rpm, there also seem to have been a good many kids' records at that speed (if internet auctions are anything to go by ).

I had a couple of kid's records that came with a story book so that you could read along to the record. I thought that they were Disney but the ones that I still have are 7 inch at 33 1/3. So while I don't know the titles of the 16 2/3s that I played way back when, I can show the awesome tube console stereo I played them on. At about 1:50 the camera focuses on the speed control. Just prior to that I giggle every time the narrator notes what can be hooked up thanks to the auxiliary input.

The 16 2/3s speed was also useful for making records by the Chipmunks more listenable, and near the end of the console's life for experiments like "What if Bruce Springsteen could sing even more slowly?"

[Brownian Motion]

The limitations of the lp format are rarely discussed.

Storage space and amount of sonic information that can be put on one, but what else that I'm not thinking of?

Continued use: The inexorable degradation of the physical unit with the corresponding degradation of the sound quality.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

i love how this threads going back and forth between discussion of 16 2/3 rpm & DAT, lol

[Guest Bill Barton]

Now if I could only get those 16 2/3 wire recordings transferred to floppy discs...

[BruceH]

Prestige had an 16 2/3 rpm series for a while.

Larry beat me.

Please don't beat Chuck.

[Tom in RI]

I recently picked up a Philips Pocket Expanium Mini Disc Player. It uses the smaller sized cdr's (3 inch) and can play mp3's (up to 3 hours depending on compression) and PCM (only 21 minutes). This is different from minidiscs, a format that had great potential but was suffocated by Sony and their obsession with DRM. I have several minidisc players which I still use (most models can be found pretty cheap on ebay).

[JSngry]

A few years later I remember reading in Billboard about a unit that played discs with two songs on them. They were called something like hip singles because the discs would fit in your hip pocket. I never saw them in stores.

[mmilovan]

The limitations of the lp format are rarely discussed.

Right!!!

[michel devos]

...DAT and DCC should not be mentionned together. DAT was a highly successful format on the professional studio market (as well as a backup medium for computer data), while Philips' DCC failed completely (direct competitor to Sony's Minidisc which was was much more advanced, being a disc format.

DAT was indeed successful in professional studios and in broadcast operations. I recorded a lot of music using DAT machines - both in-studio and on-location - when I was at WCFE-FM, Mountain-Lake Public Radio in the early to mid-1990s. I don't recall the brand or model of the DAT recorders we had, but they were far from foolproof. In fact, they were downright squirrelly little monsters.

I still use on a regular basis the DAT medium : it is very convenient and reliable. Some of my DAT tapes are 16 years old ans show no degradation signs. When used with high grade professional machines such as the Sony 2300 and 2700, they are still an excellent alternative for 16bit recordings.