On (or rather, off) stage etiquette

[fasstrack]

I think this topic begs certain questions about post-big band jazz and also post-LP era players. Maybe it's obvious to some, maybe not, but in a big band you have to stay put and play in the section. You might have other duties like adjusting a mic for someone, etc. It's not about your solo or you so much. So you stay put and help the team. Maybe you're looking ahead at the chart for rough spots, but you stay put.

After bebop jazz became much more a small group undertaking. Bird played short on records b/c his career started during the 78 era, and also undoubtedly b/c he had the self-editing sense all truly great artists have. Even when he stretched out and it was caught live it wasn't that long, just all meaningful. His followers and certain musicians of ensuing generations cannot make the same claim. As more and more players got into music more because they felt they had something of burning importance to say than to be, let's say, a cog in the wheel of a band----and I'm not putting that down per se, b/c a fair amount of brilliant music came our way as a result along with much more that was merely good and even more IMO mediocre---certain problems arose liike the very one you broach. What do I do while the other 'horn' is playing (assuming it's a quintet, 2 horns, etc. with rhythm). Do I stand there and look 'into it', or would that be phony? What if you don't like what the other guy's doing? Do you act like you do? Do you create subterfuges? Do you vacate the bandstand, as our friend brought up, (though under different circumstances and for different reasons)?

I've seen all of the above done and more, and have participated in bands under the best and worst conditions and I still don't know what the answer is. But whatever it is, and different people will have different answers, the effect on the audience and the total musical 'picture' should be considered before doing anything. That's the best I can come up with, anyway.

[Big Beat Steve]

I so wanted to jump up and applaud some of Newman's harpsichord playing but - hey - it's a different "tradition" and a different aesthetic... Hopefully I wasn't judged a philistine by other audience members for actually - horrors! - tapping my feet and bobbing my head to J.S. Bach.

You know what? Over here in the old world, there have been (not all that rare) occasions when even in jazz concerts you were SURE to be frowned upon when you visibly moved in your seat, tapped your feet and otherwise "got in the groove" to the music (though remaining seated - or sort of ...). It sure is TOUGH to attend jazz "concerts" of this type where the vast majority of the audience is evidently made up not only of squares but of CUBES (because they visibly aren't even cool enough to show that particular, extreme, unmoved coolness). :D Sit still and applaud obligingly after the end of EACH solo for a predetermined span of time, and that's that ... And it even happened in clubs with a predominantly seated audience. Actually only a step (literally) away from being forcibly called top order if a couple dared to cut loose and do a dance to a particularly danceable tune between the groups of seats or in the aisles (happened to friends of mine more than once). 1938 revisited ...

And as for vacating the stage, again - maybe the concept of some small group's music demands reassessment if every solo is strictly a matter of forcing the non-rhythm section men to sit it out all the time. No doubt that can be done sometimes but how about getting some interaction going between the front-line soloist and the other (background) horn(s) in other cases?

[medjuck]

Didn't Miles used to leave the stage, go to the bar and have a drink sometimes while sidemen were soloing? Even start up conversations? I may be doing him a disservice here. Can't cite any sources and he stayed on stage the couple of times I saw him.

[Niko]

You know what? Over here in the old world, there have been (not all that rare) occasions when even in jazz concerts you were SURE to be frowned upon when you visibly moved in your seat, tapped your feet and otherwise "got in the groove" to the music (though remaining seated - or sort of ...). It sure is TOUGH to attend jazz "concerts" of this type where the vast majority of the audience is evidently made up not only of squares but of CUBES (because they visibly aren't even cool enough to show that particular, extreme, unmoved coolness). :D Sit still and applaud obligingly after the end of EACH solo for a predetermined span of time, and that's that ...

wikipedia sums this up nicely:

When attending a jazz performance in an indoor concert setting, western classical concert etiquette is expected with one exception: it is considered well-mannered to applaud after each artist has completed their extended improvised solo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_etiquette

another thing that article reminded me of is that in the 19th century it was still appropriate to applaude between movements of symphonies (and what i hate the most at classical concerts are those people who can talk for minutes about the idiots who clapped hands between movements...)

[A Lark Ascending]

You know what? Over here in the old world, there have been (not all that rare) occasions when even in jazz concerts you were SURE to be frowned upon when you visibly moved in your seat, tapped your feet and otherwise "got in the groove" to the music (though remaining seated - or sort of ...). It sure is TOUGH to attend jazz "concerts" of this type where the vast majority of the audience is evidently made up not only of squares but of CUBES (because they visibly aren't even cool enough to show that particular, extreme, unmoved coolness). :D Sit still and applaud obligingly after the end of EACH solo for a predetermined span of time, and that's that ... And it even happened in clubs with a predominantly seated audience. Actually only a step (literally) away from being forcibly called top order if a couple dared to cut loose and do a dance to a particularly danceable tune between the groups of seats or in the aisles (happened to friends of mine more than once). 1938 revisited ...

I don't recognise this at all in the UK. Certainly at the main festivals I attend (where the concerts are held in theatres, small rooms etc) people get very animated on the whole.

Out in the provinces jazz concerts tend to have an older audience - things are more subdued there, but that has more to do with age and demeanour than any lack of enthusiasm. You'll not get me hopping up and down, whooping or whatever - doesn't mean I'm not completely engaged. I am an annoying head nodder and finger and foot tapper.

I rarely clap solos simply because it does seem like a ritual - you can really confuse someone sat next to you who is not used to jazz concerts by not clapping. They clap the first solo because they know that's what you do at a jazz concert, then notice the person next to them is not clapping and then get very uncertain!

I've not been to a folk club for many a year but I must say that was the format I felt most comfortable in. Usually a pub with performer and audience right up close, minimal sound equipment to act as a barrier and real, genuine interaction between songs. It was always great to see the 'stars' - people like Martin Carthy - mix with the audience and sit and listen to the (usually pretty awful) floor singers at the start of the evening.

The only jazz performer who I can think of who has the gift to play the sort of verbal ping-pong with the audience that seems to come naturally to folk performers is Alan Barnes. There's also a long tradition of audience involvement in folk music - singing along on choruses which can be absolutely heavenly at times. Attempts by jazz players to get you to clap along or whatever are invariably completely naff.

Another great communicator is Stefano Bollani - saw him with Enrico Rave twice in a couple of weeks last year and the jokes were quite different.

I'm not suggesting jazz performers should 'put on a show' for their concerts - most people attending know what they are letting themselves in for. But there are ways of being welcoming without having to do circus tricks.

[A Lark Ascending]

(and what i hate the most at classical concerts are those people who can talk for minutes about the idiots who clapped hands between movements...)

Not nearly as annoying as the chap (it's always a chap) who launches into loud clapping at the end of a piece before the music has been given a chance to die away into silence - 'Look at me, everybody! I know this piece'!

Irritation hits red when he also shouts 'bravo!'

[Big Beat Steve]

wikipedia sums this up nicely:

When attending a jazz performance in an indoor concert setting, western classical concert etiquette is expected with one exception: it is considered well-mannered to applaud after each artist has completed their extended improvised solo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_etiquette

That's the point ... As long as "western classical concert etiquette" is expected at "jazz performances in an indoor concert setting" I find many of those jazz "concerts" extremely stifling. At least in those cases where the music isn't inviting such "western concert etiquette" at all. I can understand it in MJQ concerts, for example (and I am not going to refer to Keith Jarrett here ), but if an oldtime jazz band or an out-and-out swing band performs there - hey ... this music is MEANT for the audience to cut loose - at least for those in the audience who feel inclined to do so. And if this jazz concert were staged in a (concert or not) setting that really befits the music then exuberance and out and out enjoyment (going beyond tapping your feet into STOMPING your feet) would be encouraged (after all you DON'T have to tear up the floor and throw the seats out the window to show your appreciation, you know ... this is no 1956 Lionel Hampton tour ... and yet ...) and sitting still and applauding politely at the obvious points would only be "tolerated".

Maybe over here in Europe (or is this a German phenomenon??) "classical music etiquette" really has such a firm stranglehold on expected audience behavior, but is this something that just GOT to be so?

[mikeweil]

I don't know - sometimes I wish I were a horn player, 'cause in the rhythm section you rarely get a break ... I sure would listen to what the others play. I think it all depends on how you actually do it (just like the music) - if you step aside to focus on your bandmates, it's alright. If you look disinterested, well ...

[Niko]

wikipedia sums this up nicely:

When attending a jazz performance in an indoor concert setting, western classical concert etiquette is expected with one exception: it is considered well-mannered to applaud after each artist has completed their extended improvised solo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_etiquette

Maybe over here in Europe (or is this a German phenomenon??) "classical music etiquette" really has such a firm stranglehold on expected audience behavior, but is this something that just GOT to be so?

must admit i haven't been to many concerts, stadtgarten in cologne (where i heard most of the bigger names i have heard) has two settings, sometimes they remove chairs and get a good atomsphere... but they rather do that for, say, victor bailey, than for don byron or dewey redman (and those concerts severly suffered, imho...), from those concerts i knew what you meant, the subway in cologne was a little bit better but not significantly so... it's gone and i wasn't surprised, didn't feel welcome at all, maybe also an age thing) we had a great jazz club here in bonn for two years, mostly with younger local artists and a young audience and this always had a great, relaxed atmosphere... the loft in cologne also has a somewhat serious air but this is offset a good deal by a very family like atmosphere (notably because the audience is rarely more than 25 people) moers festival is much different, on the outside you have like 25000 people living in tents, smoking stuff, not caring much about jazz (most of them) - and while this does feel a bit odd it relaxes the atomsphere in the concert tent quite a bit... can't see any more hippies for a week or so afterwards though

have to agree with bev - i don't blame the musicians for not being willing to do a "show" but i do wish they'd feel different (just, if i think how often i tell my students about the importance of "doing a good show" - and they're about to become mathematicians ... i can't really belive this is not an issue for so many jazz musicians, after all they're still standing on stages giving concerts at this point in the development of their art form... looking at them you get the feeling they think it's something of a transitional period and some day (with the next bird) it will be established that they can just play for themselves in their appartments)

Edited July 22, 2009 by Niko

[A Lark Ascending]

Maybe over here in Europe (or is this a German phenomenon??) "classical music etiquette" really has such a firm stranglehold on expected audience behavior, but is this something that just GOT to be so?

Might well be a German thing. 'Classical music etiquette' is rarely followed by we stiff-upper-lipped Brits in jazz concerts!

Actually, I'd be much more likely to go to classical concerts if they'd get rid of that 'you are now entering the portals of sacred 'Art'' vibe that can surround them - why it is rare for a conductor to speak to the audience quite escapes me.

There was a flurry of updating classical concerts in the UK in the late-80s around the time of the Nigel Kennedy/Three Tenors boom - trouble was that they went to far in the other direction with amplification, light shows and the rest. I can only assume a few classical musicians damaged their reputations with those who control things and as a result this was all reined in.

Thinking about it, classical musicians don't leave the stage during a piece...but if half the orchestra isn't needed for a chamber like piece, they always troop off. The people I feel sorry for are the vocal soloists who I've sometimes seen have to sit through 40 minutes of orchestral music before they get up to chirp. What does your mind do in those 40 minutes...count the light bulbs, eye-up the nice looking members of the audience, work out your shopping list?

[Van Basten II]

The key for the performer who becomes a non-performer is to keep  showing your interest for the music being played, if the guy who is a pro musician has no interest for the music being played it sends a message to the audience why should they.

Monk's Casino that i saw a month ago was a very bad example of awful behaviour by musicians, , they couldn't stop talking while the playing was done by only a part of the band and you had the impression they were going through the motions.

Regarding clapping , it annoys me when audiences claps every insignifiant solo during a set, especially if the pieces played are almost chamber music like or ballads. It sounds more like people wanting to hear themselves than actually appreciating the music.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Van Basten II

[trane123]

You know, one of the things I like best about seeing jazz live is watching the reactions of the other players during a solo. I've seen many horn players do a double take -- or even laugh out loud -- at something the piansist or bass player did during their solo. It may be a reference to something that got played last week or a conversation on the way to the gig. It just demonstrates the added level of communication that goes on between master musicians.

And, if the audience connects with that little piece of unspoken musical commnuication at the same time, it's very cool...

[fasstrack]

The key for the performer who becomes a non-performer is to keep  showing your interest for the music being played, if the guy who is a pro musician has no interest for the music being played it sends a message to the audience why should they.

Monk's Casino that i saw a month ago was a very bad example of awful behaviour by musicians, , they couldn't stop talking while the playing was done by only a part of the band and you had the impression they were going through the motions.

Regarding clapping , it annoys me when audiences claps every insignifiant solo during a set, especially if the pieces played are almost chamber music like or ballads. It sounds more like people wanting to hear themselves than actually appreciating the music.

We have a lot to learn about other cultures. The first time I went to Holland I went to a place called Murphy's Law in Den Haag. The band was doing their thing and everyone was sort of 'internalizing'----little outward applause and no seeming physical connection in response to the music. I was used to American jazz audiences generally and black audiences particularly (who let the musicians know when they're getting down---and when they're not). I went back to my hostess, a singer from Germany, and told her of my surprise at the Dutch for being so reserved. At one point she said "I'm German", and I finally shut my big mouth and decided I had a lot to learn and it was best to listen more. A little while later a went to a concert at a cool venue called the Theatre de Tobbe in nearby Voorburg. The performer was a pianist I later made friends with and jammed with, Peter Beets. Peter can swing, and had the people getting into it with their bodies and practically shouting. Whole different thing.

But there are definite cultural differences and I guess performers have to adapt and learn wherever they go. Sometimes they're somewhere else, too, and it's an oil painting. Nothing you can do about that. Other times your thing isn't in focus. There's always the next time.....

[7/4]

bandstand alternatives when having finished a solo and waiting for the other musicians to play:

5) adjust the wedgie in your tighty whiteys (7/4 will be doing this at his upcoming Brooklyn gig)

What the fuck are you doing Allen?

[papsrus]

... But there are ways of being welcoming without having to do circus tricks.

I enjoy a few circus tricks with my music. A little juggling, some fire eating. Nothing quite like a flute solo performed atop a unicycle! Adds a whole new dimension.

Might have something to do with me living in a circus town, complete with circus museum, tiny houses built for little people, and a permanent little big top adjacent to one of the local high schools for young performers.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

A few years back, I caught Toshiko Akiyoshi and Lew Tabackin in a quartet setting at Scullers. After his solo, Lew came over and sat at my table to watch Toshiko's solo.

I've seen more bands where players move off stage (but not out of sight) than I've seen players stand around doing nothing. At a few gigs I've been at, the player standing around doing nothing was a distraction. I remember one gig where one player constantly walked over beside the piano keyboard and blocked the audience's view. It was weird and a bit annoying.

Later,

Kevin

[Guest Bill Barton]

... But there are ways of being welcoming without having to do circus tricks.

I enjoy a few circus tricks with my music. A little juggling, some fire eating. Nothing quite like a flute solo performed atop a unicycle! Adds a whole new dimension.

Might have something to do with me living in a circus town, complete with circus museum, tiny houses built for little people, and a permanent little big top adjacent to one of the local high schools for young performers.

Juggling? Sun Ra! Fire eating? Sun Ra! A trumpet soloist (Michael Ray) doing a full backflip from a standing start? Sun Ra! Never seen/heard a flute solo performed on a unicycle but I have seen/heard a composition for a unicycling trombonist (trombocyclist?) written by Stuart Dempster and performed by Nathaniel Oxford at Dempster Diving, the 70th birthday Sonic Extravaganza for Stuart at Seattle's Town Hall in 2006 (Earshot Aural Snaphots).

[7/4]

It might have looked strange on the video, but I don't think it's a big deal. If there was a long period where I didn't play, I'd leave the stage too, but generally I'm there because it's my own music.

...

[AllenLowe]

when I saw John Cage in the middle 1960s, some guy rode a bicycle across the stage -

I don't remember if he was wearing a helmet (for you safety nuts) -

[Rosco]

when I saw John Cage in the middle 1960s, some guy rode a bicycle across the stage -

I don't remember if he was wearing a helmet (for you safety nuts) -

Was it in the score or did he just take a wrong turn?

[PHILLYQ]

Didn't Miles used to leave the stage, go to the bar and have a drink sometimes while sidemen were soloing? Even start up conversations? I may be doing him a disservice here. Can't cite any sources and he stayed on stage the couple of times I saw him.

I once saw the Joe Farrell quartet at the Village Vanguard, and his group had Joe Beck playing guitar. When Farrell finished his solo he came off the stage and grabbed a drink while Beck played a long solo. They played 4 tunes in their set, so Farrell had 4 drinks that set! I had no problem with it, Farrell played great and didn't miss any cues.