New Blue Note SACDs

[Norm]

The info by CD Pacific is outdated, the releases have been delayed multiple times.

Not to confuse matters, but with regard to the new (completely different) series of XRCDs, I found a list of things to come over the next 8 months at Elusive disc. I have been wanting to pick up Soul Station for about 6 weeks now but its release (with Sonny Clark's Cool Struttin' and Tina Brook's True Blue to be among the first ones to be issued) was delayed once again from October to December (at least thats what it shows now).

Here's a link to the (updated) schedule of releases for these XRCDs. I see that Lee Morgan's Tomcat is included...had been toying with buying the RVG but may have to wait for this one to come out in February...hopefully.

http://www.elusivedisc.com/products.asp?dept=1416

Edited November 18, 2009 by Norm

[Joe Harley]

Hi JAW,

Is it OK for me to post here? This forum is new to me so I don't want to be breaking any rules.

Hopefully I can help explain the reasoning behind the Blue Note XRCDs, just released this week.

First of all, understand that I take the privilege of having access to the original Blue Note master tapes VERY seriously. I've loved Blue Note for as long as I can remember. When EMI and Michael Cuscuna gave Ron Rambach and I carte blanche to create the ultimate LP reissues of Blue Note titles two years ago, we dove into it 24/7 with all of our hearts! It’s a project that continues to this day. I've had the pleasure of working with many of the great analog mastering engineers over the years. For this particular project, the choice of Steve Hoffman and Kevin Grey at Acoustech Mastering was a natural, especially considering the fact that mastering at Acoustech allows you to take your acetate directly over to plating at RTI. That's a serious advantage!

In early 2009, when the opportunity to have the same access to Blue Note masters was presented from a digital perspective, I again thought through all options carefully. I have extensive experience with SACD, having produced over 50 titles for various labels on SACD. I was creative director for the JVC/XRCD program for a number of years as well. My choice of Alan Yoshida (OceanWay Mastering) and XRCD was based on only one thing.....which mastering engineer and what chain, would provide the results that I would personally want to hear? How would I want the ideal digital presentation of Blue Note to be produced?

That was the reasoning. The results have just been released for those who are interested to listen to (and look at since these are presented as bound books with added session photos.) I'll be very curious to read impressions from those of you who buy these.

I hope you enjoy them as much as I am this evening!

Cheers,

Joe

Joe Harley and Alan Yoshida are working on the upcoming Blue Note XRCDs; Steve Hoffman is not involved in any way, this is a completely different project. There's at least one thread on these XRCDs over on the Hoffman forum, here.

But the projects are at least partly about the same Blue Note titles. Hoffman mastered them for 45rpm LP release for Harley's Music Matters label previously.

http://www.musicmattersjazz.com/titles.html

So Harley hired Hoffman to master LPs, and then a couple of months later he hires Yoshida to master the same titles for CD. This looks like unnecessary duplication of work to me, compared to the Analogue Productions way to do it for ther LP and SACD reissues

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost...mp;postcount=11

Why not ask Joe Harley about "the how and the why"?

[Shrdlu]

A great Bulletin Board Moment!

[J.A.W.]

Hi Joe,

Why wouldn't it be? The more info directly from the source, the better

By the way, it's not my call, you'd have to ask Jim Alfredson, the board's owner.

Hi JAW,

Is it OK for me to post here? This forum is new to me so I don't want to be breaking any rules.

Joe Harley and Alan Yoshida are working on the upcoming Blue Note XRCDs; Steve Hoffman is not involved in any way, this is a completely different project. There's at least one thread on these XRCDs over on the Hoffman forum, here.

But the projects are at least partly about the same Blue Note titles. Hoffman mastered them for 45rpm LP release for Harley's Music Matters label previously.

http://www.musicmattersjazz.com/titles.html

So Harley hired Hoffman to master LPs, and then a couple of months later he hires Yoshida to master the same titles for CD. This looks like unnecessary duplication of work to me, compared to the Analogue Productions way to do it for ther LP and SACD reissues

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost...mp;postcount=11

Why not ask Joe Harley about "the how and the why"?

Edited December 12, 2009 by J.A.W.

[J.A.W.]

New thread on Mobley's Soul Station XRCD

[ShowsOn]

I finally received a copy of Joe Henderson - Page One, and it sounds fantastic. Finally a Blue Note where the bass cuts through instead of sounding like it was off in a different room!

By my calculations the first track on the RVG CD has about 5 dB of compression applied! That's even more than the RVG Blue Train SACD.

The graph below compares Blue Bossa on the CD layer of the AP, and the RVG CD after both have been WaveGained to the same perceived loudness. Obviously the RVG has had the dynamic range completely destroyed.

Especially annoying is how heavily the limiter is used during the saxophone solo. The channel narrowing is bad enough, but the heavy limiting is what really kills the sound of the horns.

And the really sad thing, it is actually one of the BETTER sounding RVG CDs I own! Well, I did own it. I sold it on eBay.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

what condition were the tapes in when you got them? could you tell they have been played many times before? what did the boxes look like? was their a lot of writing on them? did you really see the hootin n tootin master tape? what did that look like? what about any mobley tapes? what was the status on those? did you take any pics of this stuff? how did blue note get the material to you? surely you just didnt get it fed-ex'd with insurance, etc--- surely it had to be something hand delivered, correct?

[ShowsOn]

what condition were the tapes in when you got them? could you tell they have been played many times before? what did the boxes look like? was their a lot of writing on them? did you really see the hootin n tootin master tape? what did that look like? what about any mobley tapes? what was the status on those? did you take any pics of this stuff? how did blue note get the material to you? surely you just didnt get it fed-ex'd with insurance, etc--- surely it had to be something hand delivered, correct?

I hope Joe Harley will reply with some answers. But he has indirectly answered some of your questions on the Steve Hoffman forums. For example, in this post concerning finding the original master tape of Out to Lunch he mentions this:

Steve (Hoffman) found an old pristine tape marked R.V.G. that had never been checked out of the tape library. (All tapes come with a log so you can see who used it, when, and for what purpose.)

Incidentally, Harley says that there will be an AudioWave CD of Out to Lunch mastered from this master tape for the first time ever.

Many Blue Note master tapes were copied and thrown out, so the only existing master tapes are copies (those copies should be called masters because they are all that is left to master from!). Steve Hoffman mentioned this in this thread concerning finding the original Lee Morgan - Sidewinder master tape, which was considered lost and has never been used for a CD release of the album.

So I have been tearing out my hair trying to find the Rudy Van Gelder session masters for the famous and fabulous Lee Morgan album "The Sidewinder" so we could cut it for Analogue Productions/Acoustic Sounds 45 RPM Blue Note series and companion dual layer SACD.

84157 is the stereo number and I have been going through tapes right and left trying to find the original. Today, through a stroke of luck I checked out two reels in 1980's ugly 3M plastic boxes with Xerox copies of Liberty Studio retyped tape legend and crappy Ampex 406 packing tape at head and tail (in other words, looked like a 1980's dub). Just for a lark it was wound back and, wow!!! After the gunky 406 and the white leader the tape turned a nice milk chocolate Scotch 111 brown. In other words, the true master of THE SIDEWINDER, thought to be lost was lost no more.

There it was, mis-boxed, mislabeled and misfiled. Some goofball back in the 1980's pitched the original Van Gelder tape boxes and put the reels in these plastic turks. Why, I don't know. Then, they did NOT mark as masters. Yikes.

First thing I did was take my black sharpie and write on the reels and the boxes: ORIGINAL TAPE, NOT A COPY!

Then, we played it. Ahhhhhh, wonderful sound. A Rudy Van Gelder engineered winner.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Many Blue Note master tapes were copied and thrown out, so the only existing master tapes are copies (those copies should be called masters because they are all that is left to master from!). Steve Hoffman mentioned this in this thread concerning finding the original Lee Morgan - Sidewinder master tape, which was considered lost and has never been used for a CD release of the album.

So I have been tearing out my hair trying to find the Rudy Van Gelder session masters for the famous and fabulous Lee Morgan album "The Sidewinder" so we could cut it for Analogue Productions/Acoustic Sounds 45 RPM Blue Note series and companion dual layer SACD.

84157 is the stereo number and I have been going through tapes right and left trying to find the original. Today, through a stroke of luck I checked out two reels in 1980's ugly 3M plastic boxes with Xerox copies of Liberty Studio retyped tape legend and crappy Ampex 406 packing tape at head and tail (in other words, looked like a 1980's dub). Just for a lark it was wound back and, wow!!! After the gunky 406 and the white leader the tape turned a nice milk chocolate Scotch 111 brown. In other words, the true master of THE SIDEWINDER, thought to be lost was lost no more.

There it was, mis-boxed, mislabeled and misfiled. Some goofball back in the 1980's pitched the original Van Gelder tape boxes and put the reels in these plastic turks. Why, I don't know. Then, they did NOT mark as masters. Yikes.

First thing I did was take my black sharpie and write on the reels and the boxes: ORIGINAL TAPE, NOT A COPY!

Then, we played it. Ahhhhhh, wonderful sound. A Rudy Van Gelder engineered winner.

I asked Michael Cuscuna & Ron McMaster about this and they have no idea what Steve Hoffman was talking about with "The Sidewinder" master tape. According to Ron, the master that Steve "found" is the same one that he's used many times. In fact, when Ron used it a few weeks later to cut an LP, he said the writing on the box was plain as day that it had been used by him & RVG for the previous CD releases.

[CJ Shearn]

I will wait for the new reissue of Out to Lunch as I don't have any format version of this. When is the CD coming? I'd love to check out these new XRCD's but money is so tight and I have the RVG's, it's a shame some of them are compressed like that, but I thought as Kevin stated on the SH board once, that the EQ also affects the loudness on the RVG reissues?

[Claude]

If you are not a die-hard audiophile and just want a good sounding version of "Out to lunch", try to find the regular McMaster reissue, which sounds much better than the RVG. The RVG suffers from compression and narrowed stereo spread.

[ShowsOn]

I will wait for the new reissue of Out to Lunch as I don't have any format version of this. When is the CD coming? I'd love to check out these new XRCD's but money is so tight and I have the RVG's, it's a shame some of them are compressed like that, but I thought as Kevin stated on the SH board once, that the EQ also affects the loudness on the RVG reissues?

Probably after October this year. It isn't one of the first 25 which will be released between now and October:

http://www.audiowavemusic.com/AudioWaveMusicFlyer.html

Save $3 a month, by the end of the year you'll have enough cash for it.

The two I'm really looking forward to are Herbie Hancock - Takin' Off and Horace Silver - Cape Verdean Blues.

On the Analog Productions side, I can't wait for Herbie Hancock - Maiden Voyage.

[CJ Shearn]

well Claude, I would consider myself an audiophile without tons of money, like mainly I listen through Audio Technica studio monitor phones which are very good, so I'll just wait for the Music Matters issue. There are some McMasters I regret getting rid of like "Prayer Meetin", even though the RVG has greater detail, I roll the treble back a few notches to get it to sound ok, though. There are some McMasters I would not give up like JOS "Crazy Baby" if an RVG ever hit domestically, b/c it has good dynamic range, while other RVG's like "Maiden Voyage" and "A Night at Birdland" I find to be vast improvements. Others that have now become RVG's like "Grant's First Stand" I simply chose not to upgrade from the McMaster, b/c well I already have that music, and I have heard bits of the RVG, but prefer the sound of the '99 McMaster release, again more dynamics. I'm pretty much like a lot here on sound but if I find something that sounds good to me, I'm happy

Edited January 6, 2010 by CJ Shearn

[ShowsOn]

...while other RVG's like "Maiden Voyage" and "A Night at Birdland" I find to be vast improvements.

I agree that Maiden Voyage is one of the better RVGs, but I'm certain that the stereo spread has been narrowed.

I know some people like that because it makes it sound more modern, but personally I hate it. The stereo spread should be left as is. It is a historical fact that stereo recordings were made that way early on, and it shouldn't be messed with.

[CJ Shearn]

True, it is odd RVG collapsed the spread on some of the initial batches. Why "Maiden Voyage" still sounds fresh though is b/c it's one of Herbie's most enduring tunes, but also because that style is the template for and what many young players are doing today as far as straight ahead goes.

[ShowsOn]

True, it is odd RVG collapsed the spread on some of the initial batches. Why "Maiden Voyage" still sounds fresh though is b/c it's one of Herbie's most enduring tunes, but also because that style is the template for and what many young players are doing today as far as straight ahead goes.

I think that sometimes the perception of a collapsed stereo spread is a side effect of the compression. For example, on the RVG Blue Train SACD, there is more compression on the right channel than the left. This makes that channel louder, which is perceived as a narrowing.

Maiden Voyage is in the second batch of Analog Productions releases, so I doubt it will come out for about another year. They're only half way through the first 25.

[CJ Shearn]

Hmm, interesting.. There are plugins, well I have one of them, since my stereo is hooked up to my computer called Stereo Tool which has an increased stereo option to widen the spread without any artifacts.

[ShowsOn]

More Analog Productions Blue Note SACDs now up for pre-order here:

http://store.acousticsounds.com/index.cfm?get=results&orderby=13&ComingSoon=true&categoryID=4

Of course they will be cheaper in other stores like CDPacific.com if they can ever actually get them in stock.

[Norm]

I just received the Moanin' AP hybrid/SACD yesterday. And, boy, is it fantastic. Clear as a bell without any harshness at all. I also ordered the XRCD of Soul Station, but this has not been officially released and won't be mailed for a few more days.

Once I listened to Moanin' I looked over the other AP hybrid/SACD titles available and in the works. With this kind of sound, I'm going to have to pick up Blue Train, Midnight Blue, Idle Moments, Somethin Else, Green Street and possibly Lee-way. Mind you I don't even own a SACD player, so I'm just listening to the redbook layer, but the difference is astounding and the music is just all the more inviting.

[ShowsOn]

Mind you I don't even own a SACD player, so I'm just listening to the redbook layer, but the difference is astounding and the music is just all the more inviting.

Yes, you've got to own one of these SACDs before you know exactly how screwed up the RVG CDs are.

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

I was interested to see 'Tokyo Blues' suddenly appear as a Jan. 30 release along with 'Go' at AS. Thought that one was originally scheduled for release further daown the road? Placed an order back in May.....should have 6 of 'em winging their way to the front door by the end of next week. Great sounding discs these SH ones are!

[Claude]

Tokyo Blues was indeed initially scheduler for later release.

I recently received "Caddy for Daddy" and "Page one" is on the way too. These are now available from other sellers than Acoustic Sounds (who I don't deal with because of their excessive shipping fees).

[Brad]

It's nice to see that a Three Sounds cd, Bottoms Up, will be coming out.

[David]

Claude,

If I may ask, what other stores do you recommend? I see CD Pacific seems to have some of these in stock, but I was wondering if there were other places where I could order these without the ridiculous shipping fees of AcousticSounds.

Thanks!

David

[CJ Shearn]

I ended up getting the "Out to Lunch" RVG for cheap yesterday, great session as I have only heard parts of it. But when is the XRCD coming?