New Blue Note SACDs

[Claude]

I don't agree with that.

First, the AP LP and Music Matters LP and XRCD releases, all mastered by Hoffman, have frequently been delayed, so it's not certain it has something to do with SACD pressing capacities.

Second, these are released on an audiophile label, which usually has prices >$25, even for CDs. So I don't think the SACD format makes them significantly more expensive.

Third, from an audiophile label people expect a state of the art digital format, which Cd is no more since SACD exists.

[J.A.W.]

First, the AP LP and Music Matters LP and XRCD releases, all mastered by Hoffman, have frequently been delayed, so it's not certain it has something to do with SACD pressing capacities.

The Blue Note XRCD reissues were/will be mastered by Alan Yoshida, not Steve Hoffman.

Edited September 29, 2009 by J.A.W.

[Claude]

Thanks, I didn't know that. Does that mean that both Steve Hoffman and Alan Yoshida will work on the original tapes, or will Yoshida just master the XRCDs from hi-rez digital files that Hoffman made during the LP mastering session?

[J.A.W.]

Thanks, I didn't know that. Does that mean that both Steve Hoffman and Alan Yoshida will work on the original tapes, or will Yoshida just master the XRCDs from hi-rez digital files that Hoffman made during the LP mastering session?

Joe Harley and Alan Yoshida are working on the upcoming Blue Note XRCDs; Steve Hoffman is not involved in any way, this is a completely different project. There's at least one thread on these XRCDs over on the Hoffman forum, here.

Edited September 29, 2009 by J.A.W.

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

Apparently there are only two SACD pressing plants left in the U.S., so they often suffer huge backlogs.

Since we're not talking mid-20th century assembly lines I have a hard time believing that this is the case. How many SACDs can be churned out per day? 10,000? 12,000? What was the run on some of those MFSL discs like Art Pepper or Milt Jackson? 2,500? 5,000 tops?

Edited September 29, 2009 by Son-of-a-Weizen

[Claude]

Joe Harley and Alan Yoshida are working on the upcoming Blue Note XRCDs; Steve Hoffman is not involved in any way, this is a completely different project. There's at least one thread on these XRCDs over on the Hoffman forum, here.

But the projects are at least partly about the same Blue Note titles. Hoffman mastered them for 45rpm LP release for Harley's Music Matters label previously.

http://www.musicmattersjazz.com/titles.html

So Harley hired Hoffman to master LPs, and then a couple of months later he hires Yoshida to master the same titles for CD. This looks like unnecessary duplication of work to me, compared to the Analogue Productions way to do it for ther LP and SACD reissues

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost...mp;postcount=11

[Claude]

European classical labels releasing SACDs don't seem to have any problems getting their discs pressed in time. So I don't think that worldwide there is a huge backlog.

[J.A.W.]

Joe Harley and Alan Yoshida are working on the upcoming Blue Note XRCDs; Steve Hoffman is not involved in any way, this is a completely different project. There's at least one thread on these XRCDs over on the Hoffman forum, here.

But the projects are at least partly about the same Blue Note titles. Hoffman mastered them for 45rpm LP release for Harley's Music Matters label previously.

http://www.musicmattersjazz.com/titles.html

So Harley hired Hoffman to master LPs, and then a couple of months later he hires Yoshida to master the same titles for CD. This looks like unnecessary duplication of work to me, compared to the Analogue Productions way to do it for ther LP and SACD reissues

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost...mp;postcount=11

Why not ask Joe Harley about "the how and the why"?

[Guest Bixieland]

Sure, I've got Blue Train, Lee-Way, Moanin', Whistle Stop and Hootin' 'N Tootin'. I don't think the SACD of Somethin' Else is out yet. Current List of Blue Note SACD

For Blue Train, I also have the Ultimate Blue Train version and the HDAD version from Classic Records (DVD-Audio, 24bit/192k). This SACD/CD version bests them all. I think even the CD layer bests them frankly. The RVGs certainly have problems -- bright and loud. I also have the HDAD of Somethin' Else and will likely get the SACD of that when it comes out too. While the HDAD version of Blue Train is awesome this current SACD has the most clean and accurate sound -- every frequency is perfectly articulate and easy on the ear. You just can't beat the "crank up the volume" ability of these SACD/CDs. Even if you don't have a SACD player.

As you probably know, these SCAD/CDs all mastered by Steve Hoffman at AcousTech, which has extremely clean, flat and neutral sonics. I've become an admirer of his mastering...but the proof is always in the finished product, and I'd say these are clearly the ultimate version. Provided you don't mind re-re-re-buying your Blue Notes, I think it would be wise to grab a few of your favs.

Thanks. Its nice to know that Moanin' is out (I didn't realize they were behind on the others). I have a brand new/sealed copy of the U.S. RVG that I ordered from Amazon a while back but didn't bother to open. Meanwhile, I know our library has the RVG version as well so I think I borrow it, order the SACD for CD Pacific and A/B compare them directly on my CDP. That way I can form an opinion and then at least make some of my money back by selling my unopened RVG copy if I truly do prefer on the SACD on my redbook player (it decodes HDCD which seems to be an even less popular format than SACD).

BTW, is the acronym you used, HDAD, related to HDCD at all? I haven't really bothered to try to look for HDCDs... As for Blue Train I have only the 1997 Ultimate Blue Train you referenced above but it sounds, from your description, like this new mastering takes the cake. Well, I'll try Moanin' first and work from there.

I haven't spent any real time on the Hoffman forum, but on another audio board to which I belong several veteran posters continuously refer to the quality of his masterings.

Do try Moanin'. I think you'll be impressed. HDAD, is DVD-Audio...I guess it's Classic Records' way of doing DVD-Audio, which is dualdisc -- DVD-A on one side, Dolby DVD on the other. They're nice, but the Hoffman - SACD combo is just too fantastic to pass up. And I can certainly confirm the improvement. If you've got a nice vinyl rig -- even better...since the 45s, also done by Hoffman, are supposed to clobber the SACDs. Maybe not clobber. And that may be subjective (ye olde analogue/digital debate). But, deep down...I suspect it's probably true.

Also, the Creedence SACDs that Hoffman/Analogue Productions did, say they're "made in Germany." I don't think the Blue Notes are though. But if they are, that could add to the delivery time.

[ShowsOn]

Sure, I've got Blue Train, Lee-Way, Moanin', Whistle Stop and Hootin' 'N Tootin'. I don't think the SACD of Somethin' Else is out yet. Current List of Blue Note SACD

Which one do you think sounds the best in terms of sound quality?

I was thinking of getting another one, I am leaning towards Lee-Way, but would like to get one that sounds really good. I find that RVG recordings of the late 1950s and early 1960s can be a bit hit or miss in terms of recording quality. It seems he was still trying to perfect his stereo recording methods.

[Claude]

I find that RVG recordings of the late 1950s and early 1960s can be a bit hit or miss in terms of recording quality.

Really?

The Blue Note recordings between 1958 and 1962 are in my opinion by far the best in terms of sound quality. It's the later ones (1964-) that are hit or miss, with often indistinct boomy bass or tinny sounding piano (which can also be due to the instrument of course).

[Guest Bixieland]

Lee-way sounds great. I love that Dizzy-style trumpet. Sounds like sheets of gold. They all sound great, I'm not sure which one sounds the best among them. I'd say go with Lee-way. That's a great record.

[Norm]

This question is for anyone who has heard any of the SACDs and have compared to them to say RVGs.

Would you say that the SACDs were mastered at lower levels, and thus you just need to turn up the volume a few notches to reach the same level with the RVGs which seem pretty loud. I guess what I'm trying to get at is whether there is an inverse relationship between dynamic range on the one hand and "loudness" on the other. In other words, do you feel that if a CD sounds "loud" to you it has necessarily been compressed and lacks dynamic range? Just wondering if there is a direct correlation between these two characteristics?

[Claude]

Yes, the level of the AP SACD is lower than the RVG CDs, but that doesn't matter for the sound quality. This can easily be compensated with the volume knob.

When people say that a CD sounds "loud", it means that the dynamics have been compressed. Subjectively, this makes the sound louder, as the lowest level is higher.

It should also be said that RVG already applied compression to some of his Blue Note recordings. So even with the best mastering, they tend to sound "loud".

IMHO, his Prestige recordings from the late 50's sound better than his Blue Note recordings from the same time, for which he often favoured a "fat", spectacular sound.

[Guest Bixieland]

The answer is...no, these SACDs do not sound loud. As Claude was alluding to, the recordings are not compressed. Volume leveling or loudness is typically the most obvious concern, but also, the frequencies -- low to high -- I find, get displaced. The end result of "loudness" is not only a bankruptcy of dynamic range or volume difference and power of a recording -- but the destruction of the perspective given to the different frequencies of the sound spectrum. Some frequencies naturally don't reach your ear so often. For example, extreme treble should not be as pronounced as should be another, more important frequency, and so forth.

But they are balanced here. As a result the Volume knob will once again become an important ingredient, a spice at your disposal as you listen.

[Norm]

Yes, the level of the AP SACD is lower than the RVG CDs, but that doesn't matter for the sound quality. This can easily be compensated with the volume knob.

When people say that a CD sounds "loud", it means that the dynamics have been compressed. Subjectively, this makes the sound louder, as the lowest level is higher.

It should also be said that RVG already applied compression to some of his Blue Note recordings. So even with the best mastering, they tend to sound "loud".

IMHO, his Prestige recordings from the late 50's sound better than his Blue Note recordings from the same time, for which he often favoured a "fat", spectacular sound.

Thanks for the explanation. It seems like both the Hoffman SACDs and the Yoshida XRCDs will be somethin' else (sorry). I see that the XRCDs are actually a bit more, about $30 a pop vs. what you can purchase the SACDs for at CD Pacific and a few other U.S. outlets ($21 or $22) but seems like it it would be worth trying at least one of each.

And I may as well work toward replacing those 1999 U.S. RVGs...I'd been looking to replace my copy of Soul Station anyway, but only getting into this game last month, I wasn't able to find easily the definitive TOCJ and now I see, in the thread Hans linked, that the XRCD of SS is to be released in October.

I don't have an SACD player, but when I upgraded my CD player and cables last spring I noticed that the 99 RVGs did begin to grate on me -- I guess this is what some people call listener fatigue.

Its kind of amazing that both of these two projects -- as separate as they are -- are coming together at this point in time. Good news.

[J.A.W.]

I'd been looking to replace my copy of Soul Station anyway, but only getting into this game last month, I wasn't able to find easily the definitive TOCJ and now I see, in the thread Hans linked, that the XRCD of SS is to be released in October.

Really? I don't see any upcoming Soul Station release on CD Pacific's site - that's the site I linked to.

[Claude]

"Soul Station" would be an essential upgrade, since the RVG remastering is quite messed up (muffled treble, distant sound). I have the 45rpm LP reissue mastered by Hoffman, and it was a revelation to me who had only heard the RVG CD before.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Claude

[Norm]

I'd been looking to replace my copy of Soul Station anyway, but only getting into this game last month, I wasn't able to find easily the definitive TOCJ and now I see, in the thread Hans linked, that the XRCD of SS is to be released in October.

Really? I don't see any upcoming Soul Station release on CD Pacific's site - that's the site I linked to.

Here's the link to item page for the XRCD of Soulstation mastered by Alan Yoshida & co. available through Elusive Disc. It appears that only this and Sonny Clark Cool Struttin were supposed to come out in July as the first two XRCDs in this project, however, additional work on the artwork / packaging has apparently delayed their release a few times, until this month (though still not available yet). I found it when it browsing the long thread at the Hoffman forum referenced above.

http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AWMXR0001

Edited October 3, 2009 by Norm

[mikeweil]

Now that's one I would buy in a second - I, too, don't like the sound of the RVG and the LP issues I had weren't too thrilling, either.

[ShowsOn]

Would you say that the SACDs were mastered at lower levels, and thus you just need to turn up the volume a few notches to reach the same level with the RVGs

Yes. Comparing the CD layer of the RVG Blue Train SACD with the CD layer of the Analog Productions Blue Train SACD reveals that the RVG version has about 3.7 dB worth of digital limiting applied to make it sound louder. The AP version doesn't have any limiting.

I think what RVG was trying to do is increase the sound of the drums and bass in the right channel relative to the piano and horns in the left channel, to do this he used limiting mainly on the right channel. Why he did this I have no idea.

The major difference in sound is that the RVG SACD sounds very thin and lacks bass. These mastering choices for me means it has a very harsh sound.

I have made a comparison of the CD layers of both discs here.

[Norm]

Would you say that the SACDs were mastered at lower levels, and thus you just need to turn up the volume a few notches to reach the same level with the RVGs

Yes. Comparing the CD layer of the RVG Blue Train SACD with the CD layer of the Analog Productions Blue Train SACD reveals that the RVG version has about 3.7 dB worth of digital limiting applied to make it sound louder. The AP version doesn't have any limiting.

I think what RVG was trying to do is increase the sound of the drums and bass in the right channel relative to the piano and horns in the left channel, to do this he used limiting mainly on the right channel. Why he did this I have no idea.

The major difference in sound is that the RVG SACD sounds very thin and lacks bass. These mastering choices for me means it has a very harsh sound.

I have made a comparison of the CD layers of both discs here.

Thanks for sharing your results.

So, comparisons with old versions aside, I'm assuming you are fairly impressed with the mastering of the AP SACD (including CD layer) of Blue Train on its own (much like Bixie above). Would that be an accurate statement?....Just turn up the volume a bit, and you're good to go? I'd be purchasing those from this series for the CD layer as I don't have an SACD player so the mastering on the CD layer is all important.

[ShowsOn]

So, comparisons with old versions aside, I'm assuming you are fairly impressed with the mastering of the AP SACD (including CD layer) of Blue Train on its own (much like Bixie above). Would that be an accurate statement?....Just turn up the volume a bit, and you're good to go? I'd be purchasing those from this series for the CD layer as I don't have an SACD player so the mastering on the CD layer is all important.

Yep, just turn the volume control up. Blue Train sounds really good. I only have a cheap SACD layer, I've listened to it mostly via my computer or via my iPod so I listen to the CD layer which sounds excellent.

[ShowsOn]

Anyone picked up any more of these SACDs?

Joe Henderson - Page One, Hank Mobley - Caddy for Daddy and Ike Quebec - Bossa Nova Soul Samba have all started shipping from audiophile retailers. All three are on Acoustic Sounds' top 10 SACD list:

http://store.acousticsounds.com/cat/4/SACD

I'm still waiting on my copy of Page One to ship from CDPacific.com that I ordered in the first week of August!

[Claude]

I'm still waiting on my copy of Page One to ship from CDPacific.com that I ordered in the first week of August!

The info by CD Pacific is outdated, the releases have been delayed multiple times. As they have have been in stock at Acoustic sounds for only a couple of days, that means that they will become available from other sellers only in a couple of weeks. That's how it was with the previous discs.

I'm also waiting for them to become available at CD Pacific. Buying from Acoustic Sounds is twice as expensive, given their exorbitant international shipping rates.