Ellington 1930s big-band Mosaic

[Ted O'Reilly]

Larry, I timed The Sergeant Was Shy at 2:46, not 2:36 as you say in each item. Have I been getting 10 seconds more enjoyment than you for all these years?

[Don Brown]

#501 arrived at my door with this morning's mail. So far I've only had a chance to play disc one. There's certainly a lot of detail in the sound, particularly in the rhythm section. I've never heard Sonny Greer, jazz music's great colourist, so clearly.

[carnivore]

I've begun listening to my set and I have to say that, having been a regular buyer of Mosaic sets over the years, this is the first time I've been disappointed. While I appreciate the clarity and detail revealed in the rhythm section there is a shrill harsh unreal quality to the brass that makes listening fatiguing and much less than the joyous experience I was hoping for. I don't know whether Meyer or Lasker were responsible for this but it's a real blow. I was tempted to return the set but it is great to have all of the material in one package, and all of the alternates too. I think I will burn a new set of discs and use an equalizer to remove some HF. For me, it's that bad. And I contrast this with the recent Goodman and the Herman, both of which were sonically terrific.

The booklet is a disappointment too. The photos could have been rarer and the notes seem to be written for someone who is unacquainted with Ellington and his music. (Not the profile of a Mosaic buyer I would think).

We don't need a commentary on the tracks that tells us stuff like 'Johnny Hodges alto solo is followed by Lawrence Brown on trombone' I want to know the reason for 'Best Wishes' and when Duke used it, not told that the co-writer was Ted Koehler.....

And...why mention Fred Guy playing banjo on the September 21 recording of 'Maori' when it's not on the set? (Cos it was recorded for Victor.)

Overall, the set seems to say that there's been less care taken over this one than its predecessors.

[jazzbo]

That's interesting. Though i do find the presentation just a tad brighter than I'd like, I don't hear a shrill, harsh, unreal sound to the brass for example. The horns have a bit of bite. . .but horns do in "reality" as well. And these sound similar to the sound of instruments on 78s that I hear on my father's 78s in playback. I think that we should be grateful for the sparing use of noise reduction here, and we're really getting to hear a lot more of the sound of the recording than we have in some instances in the past.

I know a lot of these sonic things can be system and even "ear" related. I'm quite happy with the sound of this set, and prefer it to earlier cd versions I have of this material for detail and dynamics. But I can truly understand if someone else hears it differently, as I find I sometimes hear things differently than others.

[golfcrazy1984]

I've begun listening to my set and I have to say that, having been a regular buyer of Mosaic sets over the years, this is the first time I've been disappointed. While I appreciate the clarity and detail revealed in the rhythm section there is a shrill harsh unreal quality to the brass that makes listening fatiguing and much less than the joyous experience I was hoping for. I don't know whether Meyer or Lasker were responsible for this but it's a real blow. I was tempted to return the set but it is great to have all of the material in one package, and all of the alternates too. I think I will burn a new set of discs and use an equalizer to remove some HF. For me, it's that bad. And I contrast this with the recent Goodman and the Herman, both of which were sonically terrific.

The booklet is a disappointment too. The photos could have been rarer and the notes seem to be written for someone who is unacquainted with Ellington and his music. (Not the profile of a Mosaic buyer I would think).

We don't need a commentary on the tracks that tells us stuff like 'Johnny Hodges alto solo is followed by Lawrence Brown on trombone' I want to know the reason for 'Best Wishes' and when Duke used it, not told that the co-writer was Ted Koehler.....

And...why mention Fred Guy playing banjo on the September 21 recording of 'Maori' when it's not on the set? (Cos it was recorded for Victor.)

Overall, the set seems to say that there's been less care taken over this one than its predecessors.

I also find the earlier part of set harsh (Disks 1-4) compared to the Goodman (I don't have the Herman yet...). I also find the Shaw harsher than the Goodman too. Perhaps this is related to Andreas Meyers' transfers/remastering compared to Malcolm Addey (who remastered the Goodman and Herman)? Also, the Goodman and Herman are several years to a decade "younger" in recording quality than the Ellington big band sets first four disks. So it's almost comparing apples to oranges. I do understand what you are saying. I think Malcolm Addey's remastering is more "liquid" and "natural" sounding. Has Addey remastered anything from the early 30s for Mosaic? That would be interesting to do a comparison. Perhaps he will be doing the remastering for the upcoming Lunceford set. I find the sound quality more enjoyable on the Mosaic Ellington Small Group set than this new big band set. I also agree with the commentary on solo order, Lasker appears to be more of a historian than a musical critic. I don't want to sound negative or rip on Andreas Meyer, Steven Lasker or Mosaic, because I TRUST that they did the best they could with the material. With all that said, I am GLAD I have this set! Opinions?

[golfcrazy1984]

I think that we should be grateful for the sparing use of noise reduction here, and we're really getting to hear a lot more of the sound of the recording than we have in some instances in the past.

Totally agree! Though, I don't have the Armstrong set, I've heard from friends that it's been marred by excessive noise reduction. But by the same token, if you talked to a trumpet player he'd probably say, "Armstrong sounds GREAT!" Just as I would say if the Count Basie Roulette Studio set just had Marshal Royal and the rhythm section in the mix!!!!

[carnivore]

I've begun listening to my set and I have to say that, having been a regular buyer of Mosaic sets over the years, this is the first time I've been disappointed. While I appreciate the clarity and detail revealed in the rhythm section there is a shrill harsh unreal quality to the brass that makes listening fatiguing and much less than the joyous experience I was hoping for. I don't know whether Meyer or Lasker were responsible for this but it's a real blow. I was tempted to return the set but it is great to have all of the material in one package, and all of the alternates too. I think I will burn a new set of discs and use an equalizer to remove some HF. For me, it's that bad. And I contrast this with the recent Goodman and the Herman, both of which were sonically terrific.

The booklet is a disappointment too. The photos could have been rarer and the notes seem to be written for someone who is unacquainted with Ellington and his music. (Not the profile of a Mosaic buyer I would think).

We don't need a commentary on the tracks that tells us stuff like 'Johnny Hodges alto solo is followed by Lawrence Brown on trombone' I want to know the reason for 'Best Wishes' and when Duke used it, not told that the co-writer was Ted Koehler.....

And...why mention Fred Guy playing banjo on the September 21 recording of 'Maori' when it's not on the set? (Cos it was recorded for Victor.)

Overall, the set seems to say that there's been less care taken over this one than its predecessors.

I also find the earlier part of set harsh (Disks 1-4) compared to the Goodman (I don't have the Herman yet...). I also find the Shaw harsher than the Goodman too. Perhaps this is related to Andreas Meyers' transfers/remastering compared to Malcolm Addey (who remastered the Goodman and Herman)? Also, the Goodman and Herman are several years to a decade "younger" in recording quality than the Ellington big band sets first four disks. So it's almost comparing apples to oranges. I do understand what you are saying. I think Malcolm Addey's remastering is more "liquid" and "natural" sounding. Has Addey remastered anything from the early 30s for Mosaic? That would be interesting to do a comparison. Perhaps he will be doing the remastering for the upcoming Lunceford set. I find the sound quality more enjoyable on the Mosaic Ellington Small Group set than this new big band set. I also agree with the commentary on solo order, Lasker appears to be more of a historian than a musical critic. I don't want to sound negative or rip on Andreas Meyer, Steven Lasker or Mosaic, because I TRUST that they did the best they could with the material. With all that said, I am GLAD I have this set! Opinions?

as I work my way through the set I think the sound is becoming a bit less harsh and that edge on the brass is diminishing.... I hope it continues. Having said that, the two takes of the earliest recording of 'Merry Go Round' are bizarre, especially when contrasted with the surrounding tracks.

[jeffcrom]

Some money came in today and I finally ordered mine. Really looking forward to it.

[golfcrazy1984]

Some money came in today and I finally ordered mine. Really looking forward to it.

There is nothing like having 11 CD's of Duke Ellington (most of the 30s recordings were new to me)! I sound like a broken record, but Johnny Hodges is amazing and he is well represented in this Mosaic set. Let us know what you think of it when you get it!

[Fred]

I've begun listening to my set and I have to say that, having been a regular buyer of Mosaic sets over the years, this is the first time I've been disappointed.

Over all, I wonder why Mosaic used 78s instead of metal parts (or similar first generation masters). Perhaps they doesn't survive in the Columbia vaults? Or there are other reasons for this choice? To me, too, the sound is a bit too harsh, in the first 3 discs, and the set not so satisfactory: perhaps my expectations were too high.

Wonderful music, of course, and it's great to have all this material in one big, beautiful Mosaic box.

[John L]

Well, the sound is a huge improvement over my previous source of the material: Chronological Classics.

The booklet is extremely informative and well written in general, but has has one major defect. A box set like this calls out for at least a few introductory paragraphs that look at the big picture and discuss the place of this body of work in Ellingtonia and jazz history. The essays just jump into minute historical details right away, without introduction, and remain there the whole time. I guess that is more or less OK for those of us who have done a lot of reading and listening on Ellington and jazz, but not for the general buyer.

[golfcrazy1984]

I've begun listening to my set and I have to say that, having been a regular buyer of Mosaic sets over the years, this is the first time I've been disappointed.

Over all, I wonder why Mosaic used 78s instead of metal parts (or similar first generation masters). Perhaps they doesn't survive in the Columbia vaults? Or there are other reasons for this choice? To me, too, the sound is a bit too harsh, in the first 3 discs, and the set not so satisfactory: perhaps my expectations were too high.

Wonderful music, of course, and it's great to have all this material in one big, beautiful Mosaic box.

I think it's great that Mosaic decided to release this set and I love having my copy. I still wonder why they went with 78s as well. Again, I trust they went with what sounded the best.

Sadly, I reach for the Ellington Small Groups much more than the new big band set. I don't know how to explain it, other than the Small Groups set is more musically enjoyable and have better sonics overall...for me. That said, some sets grow in their appeal through time. I hope this is the case.

[carnivore]

I've begun listening to my set and I have to say that, having been a regular buyer of Mosaic sets over the years, this is the first time I've been disappointed.

Over all, I wonder why Mosaic used 78s instead of metal parts (or similar first generation masters). Perhaps they doesn't survive in the Columbia vaults? Or there are other reasons for this choice? To me, too, the sound is a bit too harsh, in the first 3 discs, and the set not so satisfactory: perhaps my expectations were too high.

Wonderful music, of course, and it's great to have all this material in one big, beautiful Mosaic box.

I think it's great that Mosaic decided to release this set and I love having my copy. I still wonder why they went with 78s as well. Again, I trust they went with what sounded the best.

Sadly, I reach for the Ellington Small Groups much more than the new big band set. I don't know how to explain it, other than the Small Groups set is more musically enjoyable and have better sonics overall...for me. That said, some sets grow in their appeal through time. I hope this is the case.

As I continue through the set I am finding some genuine and unexpected delights - especially details in the rhythm section that I've never heard before...sometimes something like a closed hihat that's never previously been audible. It seems that the original recordings themselves varied greatly in quality...there's a definite deterioration in clarity when Mills begins his own Master series, compared with the stuff recorded in the ARC studio.

Re: 78s - I imagine the metal work for a lot of the material is gone.

[David Ayers]

Has anyone compared the sound with the Sony Original Masters set?

[medjuck]

Am I the only one having trouble getting the discs off those things in the middle of the dish they come in? (What are they called?) I'm worried about cracking the cds.

[David Ayers]

On another tack, I know this music from the Sony set which has about 100 tracks, so is a fair representation and maybe shows up the quality even better than the Mosaic by being selective. There is some wonderful music here. I am guessing this is the most important of Ellington outside the early 40s though I don't know my Ellington too well so need some input on that. It does strike me that this is likely the most important Mosaic collection of those now in print, because of the importance of the music and maybe regardless of the sound issues. There are other great artists in the current Mosaic list (Armstrong, Reinhardt, Goodman, Gillespie etc) but except in the case of Django none of these sets seem to document the most important work of that artist. What do you think - is this set now the number one Mosaic priority as well as the number one Ellington priority now that the RCA set is no more? I'm interested in opinions.

[romualdo]

Am I the only one having trouble getting the discs off those things in the middle of the dish they come in? (What are they called?) I'm worried about cracking the cds.

Yes, they will break - snapped a disc from the Ellington sidemen box a couple of years ago (luckily Mosaic replaced it)

Appears to be a problem in quite a few of the sets

[lipi]

Am I the only one having trouble getting the discs off those things in the middle of the dish they come in? (What are they called?) I'm worried about cracking the cds.

I don't have the Ellington yet, but the Mosaic jewel cases are truly a nightmare when it comes to getting the CDs out. On the bright side, it means I've never received one with a loose CD shaking around in the package. So no: you're not the only one. I've yet to break one, but I believe someone here has, and received a replacement from Mosaic when he asked for it. I don't remember who it was, though. Edit: ah! There you go.

Edited January 2, 2011 by alex.

[miles65]

Am I the only one having trouble getting the discs off those things in the middle of the dish they come in? (What are they called?) I'm worried about cracking the cds.

I had the same problem. My discs survived. One had a manufacture mistake. Waiting for the replacement of disc XI.

Remco

[miles65]

On another tack, I know this music from the Sony set which has about 100 tracks, so is a fair representation and maybe shows up the quality even better than the Mosaic by being selective. There is some wonderful music here. I am guessing this is the most important of Ellington outside the early 40s though I don't know my Ellington too well so need some input on that. It does strike me that this is likely the most important Mosaic collection of those now in print, because of the importance of the music and maybe regardless of the sound issues. There are other great artists in the current Mosaic list (Armstrong, Reinhardt, Goodman, Gillespie etc) but except in the case of Django none of these sets seem to document the most important work of that artist. What do you think - is this set now the number one Mosaic priority as well as the number one Ellington priority now that the RCA set is no more? I'm interested in opinions.

Yes this is the one to get, togheter with the small band set. Ellington had a long recording career with more highs than lows. The 40's Victors are a very important chapter in Ellingtonia. But don't knock the 1956-1962 Columbia period. Not all 24 albums are equaly important but again the highs outnumber the lows. Mind you you're still in the Himelayas. Personal favorites: Such Sweet Thunder, Ellington Indigo's, Jazz Party, The Cosmic Scene, Anatomy Of A Murder, Blues In Orbit. Not so keen on: Dance To The Duke, All American In Jazz.

For me personaly if Mosaic desides to do more Ellington I would like the Okeh/Pathé/Plaza 25-31 period first, then Columbia 47-52 and then Columbia 56-62 (spread over several sets). The Victors should always be available, but they have been available (almost)complete in the big RCA box. The other periodes have not.

From the current Mosaics you mention I also have the Armstrong, Goodman, Shaw and Reinhardt sets. My favorites are the Shaw and Goodman sets. Great as it is Reinhardts music is also available elsewere. I miss that extra special feeling I have with the other sets. The Armstrong is great to have. The music is better than expected but I liesten to small chunks at a time.

But then how many people would play 20 or more 78 sides by the same artist in a row when those records came on the market?

Remco

[golfcrazy1984]

Am I the only one having trouble getting the discs off those things in the middle of the dish they come in? (What are they called?) I'm worried about cracking the cds.

The CD's were VERY difficult to get out of the middle dish.. breaking one would certainly ruin my day. I was careful taking them out. Thankfully Mosaic would gladly replace them if that ever happened.

[ghost of miles]

Am I the only one having trouble getting the discs off those things in the middle of the dish they come in? (What are they called?) I'm worried about cracking the cds.

Nope--I nearly posted a comment about this myself the day after the set arrived. Discs 2 and 3 in the first case required artful, several-minute-long thumb-and-finger-wrestling matches for removal.

[jazztrain]

No. I've had the same problem with a few of the discs. I'm particularly cautious now having recently broken disc 1 of the recent Bob Dunn box when attempting to remove it from the spindle (that's what I call it). I've never had this problem before. It makes me wonder if some new sort of prongs (tines?) are being used on the spindles. I've had the opposite problem at times with multi-CD boxes (CDs coming loose too easily).

I remember disc 2 being very hard to remove.

Am I the only one having trouble getting the discs off those things in the middle of the dish they come in? (What are they called?) I'm worried about cracking the cds.

[Chuck Nessa]

Maybe the holes are a bit smaller.

[papsrus]

I've always thought the discs on the few Mosaic sets I have appeared/felt quite thin (and thus more easily snapped when stuck?). Don't have this set yet, but I'll be cautious removing the discs when I do.